Spell DCs

[Tammuz]

I understand that to get many spells to stick in Epic Play its advised to have DC "In the 40's", but how do people get those DCs?

Well race matters I'm sure, but just take a random human Sorcerer.

* He gets that 18 at 1st lvl +2 Human bonus.
* He gets +5 over the course of his career hitting the human ceiling of 25 ability modifier.
* He gets a +6 (or +7 for the ToD rings) Charisma item.
* He snags a +4 Tome ( a very rare and coveted item I do not have)

So right now we are at casting stat of 35 or 36 (the latter +13 mod; so his spells have a DC of 32 assuming they are all heightened to 9nth lvl)

He gets Greater Spell focus (+2) or an item that does the same. (DC 34)

Now what? Even exceptional Charisma only goes up to what, +3 which adds a +1 modifier, pop in Sorcerer Charisma III Enhancement and you get a total additional modifier of +4 or DC 37?

Right now I have DCs of 30 and 31, with savant power hitting DC 37. How do people get their DCs "in the 40's"? I assume these DCs are in Enchantment and Necromancy, albeit evocations may allow a save for 1/2 so having things always fail their saves means 2x the damage as opposed to always having them pass.

[rytiux]

items which have bonuses to spells stack with feats/enchantments, sorcerers with the spell pass and savant introduction have become more destroy than DC, while wizards have bonuses from prestige enchantments and capstone so they can get either necromancy or enchantment spells or maybe even both to a high enough DC for epic use.

Of course while you can reach good enough dcs for epics on a sorc but a wizard geared out in items of similar power will clearly outclass the sorc

[Rusty_Can]

I understand that to get many spells to stick in Epic Play its advised to have DC "In the 40's", but how do people get those DCs?

Those numbers are for "crowd-control" and "insta-kill" spells, which are usually wizards' toys, not for nuking spells.

* He gets that 18 at 1st lvl +2 Human bonus.

+1 from Human Adaptability enhancement, not +2.

Well race matters I'm sure, but just take a random human Sorcerer.

Easy Cha: 18 base + 5 lvl-up + 1 human enhancement + 3 CHA class enhancements + 6 item + 2 tome + 3 exceptional CHA (ToD rings or greensteel weapons) + 2 ship buff = 40 (+15 modifier).

A bit harder: considering +7 items (e.g. epic Helm of Frost), profane bonuses (e.g. +1 from litany), +4 tome (another +2) and yugoloth potions (+2) we get another +6 CHA and your CHA hits 46.

If you start factoring in Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, Past Life: Wizard (+1 to all DC), stuff quickly adds up.

However, keep in mind that, right now, when trying to achieve high DC, wizards have considerably easier life than sorcerers: Wizard Capstone provides +2 INT, Archmage PrE provides bonuses to chosen schools, Lich Form (Pale Master only) provides +2 INT and +1 to DC of Necromancy spells.

Other stuff: Spellsong Trance (you need a Spellsinger Bard) provides +1 morale bonus to all your DC.

[Srozbun]

Usually if you want high DCs you aim for 40+ of your main casting stat (CHA for sorc)

18 base
5 level
2 enhancement
7 item
3 exceptional
2-4 tome
1 human adaptability
1 litany of the dead
2 Yugo pot

41-43 total depending on your tome situation. Assuming 42 CHA, that's a 16 modifier.

Then assume greater focus feat +2.
Greater focus item +2
Spell level +9
Base +10

So 16 + 10 + 9 + 2 + 2 = 39.

Generally, the people with DCs in the 40s are wizards since wizards have +2 INT capstone, and INT bonus/DC bonus from archmage or palemaster.

Sorcs generally don't reach 40+ DCs unless they have many past lives. Wizard active (can be taken once) gives +1 to all DCs. Sorc passive gives +1 Evo. DC (can stack up to 3 times). Bard active PL gives +1 Enchant DC (can be taken once).

So a 4x TR sorc with 3 sorc PL, and a Wizard PL can hit 40 DC and have 43 DC in evocation.

Edit: Oh I forgot about 2 CHA from ship buff. That's another +1 DC.

[shadow_419]

All the numbers make my brain hurt!

[Impaqt]

SOrcs dont get the DC modifiers wizards do. but there are still quite a lot out there.

18 Base
5 Levels
4 Tome
3 Exceptional
1 Profane (lotD)
7 Item
3 Sorc Chr
1 Human Chr
2 Yugo Pot
2 Ship Buff
2 Turbine Potion
3 House D Pots (Short, but not that hard to farm)
---
51 CHR +20 Modifier

1 Spell Focus Feat
1 Greter Spell Focus Feat
1 Wiz Past Life
1 Spellsinger Buff
2 Greater Spell Focus Item

10 base
9 Spell Level
20 CHR Mod
6 Items and feats
----
45 DC

[Sarisa]

Got massively ninja'ed while writing this out, so most of my points were covered. I'll just add on a few things that weren't.

Wizards have an easier time of gaining DC's for a few reasons. They have bonus feats, allowing them to fit in the SF/GSF feats plus the past life more easily. In addition, the capstone for Wizards grants 2 INT (1 DC), and they have enhancements or forms that increase their DC's.

The Ship buff's DC boost (Phiarlan Inspiration) does NOT stack with items. It cannot be counted. The Ship buff that grants +2 INT/CHA does count.

A Yugoloth Potion grants a stacking +2 to the stat. Note that for the INT one, you pretty much have to be a Pale Master to safely use it as it grants -50% fortification.

Store potions can also be used, but they are limited and expensive to maintain resources.
House D potions can also be used, but they are also limited and somewhat expensive to maintain.

The Completionist feat also grants +2 to all stats, but there are VERY few people with that feat.

Note that a lot of this requires significant grind and rare items to get. For a first life Sorc who is still working on their equipment, 35 DC is considered decent. Higher DC's are of course better. For a first life Wizard still working on equipment, 38 DC is acceptable. With 38 DC, you can Crowd Control the easier epics if you target weak saves and use the appropriate debuffs. To crowd control the harder epics, 40 in your primary school(s) is(are) considered almost essential.

[Impaqt]

The Ship buff's DC boost (Phiarlan Inspiration) does NOT stack with items. It cannot be counted.

the Ship buff we are talking about is the +2 CHR Shrine. The Phiarlin guy does indeed suck.

[Sarisa]

the Ship buff we are talking about is the +2 CHR Shrine. The Phiarlin guy does indeed suck.

I was just referring to the Phiarlan guy. Clarified it in the original post.

[Tuney]

I would also like to mention...Passive Cleric past life is +1 conjuration for up to 3. Primary Spells :Web , Trap the soul , Cloud kill and Niac's Cold ray (If only because it is Damage or negate save)

Sorc's passive is Evoc which you all know anyways. And Bard's Selecticable is an extra +1 to enchantment DC's if you really wanted to work on them.

[WhiskeyWarrior]

What are House D pots and who do you buy them from? Seen them referred to a lot but can't seem to find them in game :\

[Rusty_Can]

What are House D pots and who do you buy them from? Seen them referred to a lot but can't seem to find them in game :\

House D potions are quite short term (couple of minutes) and provide alchemical bonuses to abilities and skills; you get them turning in some collectibles.

Check this (Drow artifact, text, fungus and ritual paraphernalia collectors). As a side note, map is probably outdated and locations of collectors changed a bit.

[skullzz]

I went into a EDA with a friend to test his DC's and we found out that his 35 dc for hold monster, on the orange named devils, was enough while he was with me (fvs with aura -2 to all saves).
If you cannot get to the 40 just make sure your with a fvs who has the pre.