Melee + DOTs + HP = Tank?

[sirgog]

I will concede the greenbalde, however

Any FvS, melee or not specced, that isn't taking full light damage and crit lines SOLELY for DP and Archon to add damage while they melee is complete and utter fool.

If DP is not in your rotation as a FVS AoV, even if you have an ESoS, claw set, and ToD rings sets, I think you're doing something terribly wrong. It's a HUGE waste of potential damage. And the fact is, FVS meleeing just isn't that good next to a true melee character. They need the added punch of DP constantly ticking.

The crit lines are expensive and add very, very little.

Of course an FvS should throw DP into their melee routine in almost all situations (unless their SP must be conserved for healing only, which is rare). But speccing it to the max - on a build that, according to the OP's requirements of high HP - will need 3-4 of each of racial and class toughness, and a lot more - may not be the right call.

Assuming 180 DPS from DP with no crit lines and no crit items, adding blue scale and maxxed crit lines adds ~30 DPS. That costs you red scale (~12 DPS on an eSOS twitcher) and 12 AP. 18 damage per second for 12 AP is pretty marginal, IMO. (And less than 18 DPS in fights where the 20 second rampup time is a significant fraction of the fight duration, which is often).


Edit: All of this forgets the guards on Red Scale, which contribute ~10 DPS against a non-fire-resistant boss that swings one time per second.

[jakeelala]

The crit lines are expensive and add very, very little.

Of course an FvS should throw DP into their melee routine in almost all situations (unless their SP must be conserved for healing only, which is rare). But speccing it to the max - on a build that, according to the OP's requirements of high HP - will need 3-4 of each of racial and class toughness, and a lot more - may not be the right call.

Assuming 180 DPS from DP with no crit lines and no crit items, adding blue scale and maxxed crit lines adds ~30 DPS. That costs you red scale (~12 DPS on an eSOS twitcher) and 12 AP. 18 damage per second for 12 AP is pretty marginal, IMO. (And less than 18 DPS in fights where the 20 second rampup time is a significant fraction of the fight duration, which is often).

I can't argue with your math, but I can say that without red scale and/or an eSoS, I think your argument might not win out. Blue scale is more attainable than red scale I think. Also, you could loot embers from Abbot too for Greater Lore if I'm not mistaken

I personally think the grind for red scale is a little silly. And PS: aren't most raid bosses where you'd be tanking not vulnerable to fire, thereby making Red scale immaterial? Also, you're better off damage wise if you can get your crafting levels high enough to make a GLOB/Holy or Holy Burst silver GS. Devils Ruin crystals are just not common. But that's a separate argument I suppose.

[Habreno]

With Arcane Lore, and fully maxed-out lines, you're not talking ~30 dps extra on crits.

Try, say, 1d6 + 20 for 21-26.

Times 1.4 + 0.75=2.15 (enhancements + Superior Brilliance V clicky)
Times 1 + 1 + 0.5=2.5 (metamagics)
Times 2 (debuff-stacks 5 times if I recall corrently)

Which gives you 21-26 damage times 10.75 for a damage range of 226 (rounded from 225.75) to 280 (rounded from 279.5) on a single stack, assuming you have forgotten to refresh your triple stack.

On crits, which with merely Arcane Lore and the smiting lines, has a 15% chance to occurr with a 2.5x multiplier, you're talking between 565 and 700 damage on crits. Single-stacked.

Though it's unlikely to get a full debuff on the boss, that's the damage a single-stack can do with one fully debuffed.


On a triple-stack, mid-fight, and with a reasonable debuff rate (1.4x, aka a double-stacked debuff), let's see what we have:

3d6+ 60 gives 63-78 for a damage range.

Times 2.15 enhancements and clicky
Times 2.5 metamagics
Times 1.4 debuff

Total is 63-78 times 7.525 for 474 to 587 (numbers rounded to nearest whole number) and crits give 2.5x for 1185 to 1468 damage.


Now, we have merely Arcane Lore, the full Smiting lines, and only a double stacked debuff in Case 2, with a triple-stacked DP.

Average DPS:
Over 100 ticks, 15 will be crits. 85 will be non-crits.
Over 20 ticks, 3 will be crits, while 17 will be non-crits. (simpler math, same crit % and ratio of crits-non/crits)

Now, these numbers will not be 100% accurate (you'd need to calculate damage out for each number within the range to be fully accurate, which is too much for a simple demonstration) but will be rather close.


3 times 1326.5 (crits) + 17 times 530.5 (non-crits) gives us a total damage amount (average) of 12998 damage over 20 ticks. This gives us an average damage of 649.9 damage, which is 324.95 DPS.

No crits gives us the following:

530.5 (average damage on non-crits) for 265.95 DPS, for a difference of 59 DPS with crits.

Assuming the person fully dumped their smiting lines, the damage is 63-78 times 1.75 (clicky) times 2.5 (metamagics) times 1.4 (debuff) for 63-78 times 6.125 giving damage of 386-478. This gives an average damage per tick of 432 damage per tick, for an average DPS of 216 with the spell, on fully-dumped smiting lines. This gives a DPS difference of 108.95.

Now, therein lies the question. Is an average of 59 DPS worth not getting any smiting crit lines or using something with Arcane Lore? Is an average of 108.95 DPS worth fully dumping your smiting lines?

In other words, the 12 AP you spent on smiting lines can produce more than 59 DPS if used for melee? The 22 AP you spent on smiting lines can produce more than 108.95 DPS if used for melee?

I don't know, but on a 20 Favored Soul, I highly doubt that.

The crit lines are expensive and add very, very little.

Of course an FvS should throw DP into their melee routine in almost all situations (unless their SP must be conserved for healing only, which is rare). But speccing it to the max - on a build that, according to the OP's requirements of high HP - will need 3-4 of each of racial and class toughness, and a lot more - may not be the right call.

Assuming 180 DPS from DP with no crit lines and no crit items, adding blue scale and maxxed crit lines adds ~30 DPS. That costs you red scale (~12 DPS on an eSOS twitcher) and 12 AP. 18 damage per second for 12 AP is pretty marginal, IMO. (And less than 18 DPS in fights where the 20 second rampup time is a significant fraction of the fight duration, which is often).

I respect you, but I'm sorry-you're totally off the mark on this one.

[Kinerd]

530.5 (average damage on non-crits) for 265.95 DPS, for a difference of 59 DPS with crits.

People may be wondering how Habreno and I got such different numbers. The answer is that I messed up one of the calculations: "Crits increase by (1 + chance * multiplier increase) percent" should say "Crits increase by (1 + chance * (multiplier - 1)) percent", which changes my value from 15% to 22.5%, which changes my DPS value from 218 to 232, or a gap of 189 * 0.225 = 42.5. If we use two shields for a 40% boost, then we have 189 * 0.225 * 1.4 = 59.4, and there you have it.

[Habreno]

Um, I used a 15% crit chance: 9% from Smiting enhancements and a further 6% (because enhancements and lores stack) from Arcane Lore.

Likewise, I used a 2.5x crit multiplier: 2.25x from Smiting enhancements and .25 x from Arcane lore add to 2.5x

*looking at your calculations to see what's missing*

[Habreno]

For reference, let us calculate out Divine Punishment and the Archon, using the full Smiting line, Brilliance, Empower, and Maximize.

Divine Punishment:
1d6 + 1 / level every 2 seconds, triple on 3rd stack
[(3.5 + 20) * (1 + 1 + .5) * (1 + .4 + .75) * 3] / 2 = 189 DPS
Crits increase by (1 + chance * multiplier increase) percent, so for Arcane Lore and the full prayer lines that's 1 + .15 * 1) = 15%, so = 218 DPS.

Then multiplied by however many shields you can get going.

I have thought it to be 3d6+3(CL) on triple stacks, giving a range of 3-18 + 60 in this case, instead of where it is in your calculations (in red). Yours doesn't give incorrect values, but you will end up with fewer values if you calculated every number out.

Regardless, the numbers are the same for the damage on non-crits. However, your critical numbers are very far off; see above post for the numbers as they should be.

[jakeelala]

I have thought it to be 3d6+3(CL) on triple stacks, giving a range of 3-18 + 60 in this case, instead of where it is in your calculations (in red). Yours doesn't give incorrect values, but you will end up with fewer values if you calculated every number out.

Regardless, the numbers are the same for the damage on non-crits. However, your critical numbers are very far off; see above post for the numbers as they should be.

As I said, there is nothing AP wise a FvS could take to up melee damage that is equivalent to the damage of maxing out one's DP.

Now, you could of course argue that you won't have AP's left for all the good defensive stuff, but I don't really buy that. All FvS enhancements are are defensive (HP, healers friend, and some stats) besides the spell enhancement AP's. There are no direct melee damage increasing AP's anyway except for like weapon specialization which is cheap anyway.

FvS should always max DP

[gloopygloop]

You will have a ton of gear to collect to make it viable however. Any serious melee that walks in with an ESoS, hate items, etc will spin him fast.

This always bothers me. If someone isn't tanking, then why would they still wear their hate increasing gear? It's okay to give up that extra 2% DPS if it means generating 20% less hate and not screwing up the raid.

It's like killing the Stormreaver in Piker's Fate before he hands out Fly. Yes, we're all impressed with your DPS. You still screwed up the raid for the entire group, though.

[biggin]

This always bothers me. If someone isn't tanking, then why would they still wear their hate increasing gear? It's okay to give up that extra 2% DPS if it means generating 20% less hate and not screwing up the raid.

It's like killing the Stormreaver in Piker's Fate before he hands out Fly. Yes, we're all impressed with your DPS. You still screwed up the raid for the entire group, though.

I see your point, but noone likes sitting in a raid while someone needs 15 minutes to build up aggro and the only way you can swing is while you have Power Attack turned off and you take off every single piece of gear you have.

I agree with removing a few hate items, but the 'top tier' players with DPS toons can hold aggro from just about anyone after 10-15 seconds. A FVS doesn't bring anything so outstanding to the table that it's worth the extra time and resources to have to wait for a substantially longer period of time to be able to go in. If you're going to be the main in a top end raid you need to be able to grab that aggro and hold it fairly quickly.

[Matuse]

Also, you could loot embers from Abbot too for Greater Lore if I'm not mistaken

Which conflicts with the Torc, and if you're trying to keep up a triple DP stack along with healing yourself you are most definitely going to need a Torc.

FvS should always max DP

Questionable, considering how expensive the top tier of the Light APs are.

FvS Toughness III: 6
Human/Warforged Toughness III: 6
Human/Warforged Con I: 2
Smiting IV: 10
Prayer of Smiting III: 6
Incredible Smiting III: 6
Deity Ability (Unyielding Sovereignty): 4
Energy of the Scion III: 6
AoV II: 6

That's 52 AP for the very basics. That's 65% of your total AP. We haven't even touched on the melee improvements, capstone, healing improvements, metamagic improvements, or stat boosts.

Plus of course, AoV III when it comes out, and whatever additional requirements it may have. Assuming the above covers AoV III's smiting requirements, it seems apparent that it will also need Energy IV. So that's another 6 AP (and you're now using 73% of your total AP) for that. Seems really excessive to boost -one- spell.

For a marginal decrease in damage, you can save 10 AP by not maxing out the smiting lines. That's pretty huge.

[sirgog]

I should clarify that I think any FvS, melee or not, should take at least tier 3 in +Light damage.

[Habreno]

Which conflicts with the Torc, and if you're trying to keep up a triple DP stack along with healing yourself you are most definitely going to need a Torc.



Questionable, considering how expensive the top tier of the Light APs are.

FvS Toughness III: 6
Human/Warforged Toughness III: 6
Human/Warforged Con I: 2
Smiting IV: 10
Prayer of Smiting III: 6
Incredible Smiting III: 6
Deity Ability (Unyielding Sovereignty): 4
Energy of the Scion III: 6
AoV II: 6

That's 52 AP for the very basics. That's 65% of your total AP. We haven't even touched on the melee improvements, capstone, healing improvements, metamagic improvements, or stat boosts.

Plus of course, AoV III when it comes out, and whatever additional requirements it may have. Assuming the above covers AoV III's smiting requirements, it seems apparent that it will also need Energy IV. So that's another 6 AP (and you're now using 73% of your total AP) for that. Seems really excessive to boost -one- spell.

For a marginal decrease in damage, you can save 10 AP by not maxing out the smiting lines. That's pretty huge.

Can also save 6 AP by not taking Toughness III tiers. And then save more AP by not taking the Human Adaptability CON since you don't need it to unlock Toughness III. That's 8 AP there.

But let's test your damage decrease.

Same as before: triple-stacked DP with a double-stacked Debuff.

63-78 damage x (1.4+.75) x (1+1+.5) x (1.4)
63 x 2.15 x 2.5 x 1.4 = 474
78 x 2.15 x 2.5 x 1.4 = 587
Crits: 2.5x multiplier and a 15% crit chance.
Damage ranges between 1185 and 1468 damage.
649.9 damage per tick average (calculations on previous page)


63-78 damage x (1.3+.75) x (1+1+.5) x (1.4)
63 x 2.05 x 2.5 x 1.4 = 452 (22 less damage)
78 x 2.05 x 2.5 x 1.4 = 560 (27 less damage)
Crits: Same as above- 2.5x multiplier with 15% chance.
Damage: 1130 (55 less damage) to 1400 (68 less damage)
619.85 damage per tick average (calculations made same way as above)

Those 4 AP spent on Smiting IV give an average DPS increase of 15.025 DPS.


Now, to consider where someone merely dumps the third tier in criticals (6 AP)

Same normal damage results (474-587) but crits are 2.25x and occurr 12% of the time. This gives us a crit-non-crit number of 3 crits per 25 ticks, instead of 3 per 20.

Crit damage ranges between 1067 and 1321 damage.

Average damage per tick is 530.5 on normal ticks and 1194 on crits. With the 12% crit ratio, this gives an average damage per tick of 610.12, for a DPS loss of19.89 DPS for 6 AP.


Now, let's take your idea of getting rid of 10 AP for all final tiers of the smiting lines. Same damage as if we get rid of the final tier in the base damage for non-crits, and same crit profile as if we got rid of the final tiers for crits.

Therefore, we have 452-560 damage on ticks, and 1017 - 1260 damage on crits. Given a 12% crit chance, at 2.25x multiplier, the average damage per tick is 581.9 damage. This results in a DPS loss of 34 DPS, given it ticks once every two seconds.


That's the math. What you folks do with it is up to you. But here's your numbers.

0 AP gained, DPS is 324.95
4 AP gained from cutting out Smiting IV, DPS is 309.925 for a DPS loss of 15.025 DPS.
6 AP gained from cutting out critical chance and multiplier III, DPS is 305.06 for a DPS loss of 19.89 DPS.
10 AP gained by cutting both Smiting IV and critical chance and multiplier III, DPS is 290.95, for a DPS loss of 34 DPS.

There you go. Enjoy.

[biggin]

Also keep in mind anyone doing this as a main tank I hope would have an Eard going after the double duff stacked. I'm not sure what that would do for the DPS (not a number cruncher) but it would definitely help that initial grab and holding that's important up front.

[Habreno]

Also keep in mind anyone doing this as a main tank I hope would have an Eard going after the double duff stacked. I'm not sure what that would do for the DPS (not a number cruncher) but it would definitely help that initial grab and holding that's important up front.

Eardweller... If I wasn't mentally beat down I'd do the math for it.

It's simple to change: the (1.4+.75) multiplier combo should go to a (1.4+1) combo.

[~STERLIN1]

The dominant thought seems to be that favored souls are "OP" and yet there are routinely large numbers or groups up without a divine character to be found...hmm. Just be careful swinging the "OP" comment around, it is food for the nerf monster.

[Matuse]

Can also save 6 AP by not taking Toughness III tiers. And then save more AP by not taking the Human Adaptability CON since you don't need it to unlock Toughness III. That's 8 AP there.

Which loses you 40 hp. Probably 6-8% of your total. In a tanking roll vs Horoth's disintegrates, that can be kind of a big deal.

Of course, it also saves you some build points (or potentially costs you other build points, depending on which way you swing your con), or has a significant impact on your gear choices as you try to even your con out one way or the other.

10 AP gained by cutting both Smiting IV and critical chance and multiplier III, DPS is 290.95, for a DPS loss of 34 DPS.

And therefore a no-brainer. 34 DPS? That's a puny loss for what you gain out of it.