Melee + DOTs + HP = Tank?

[Illiain]

As much as I love divine punishment, I have to say it is quite overpowered. I mean, if my WF FvS (12 wisdom) can do almost identical damage to my human FvS (40 wisdom), something is screwed up. It really needs to get a save for half or something so that wisdom builds get some kind of advantage.

And on numbers I've seen on my human FvS:
1,365 from a triple stacked, 4x shield of condemnation on Harry
1,644 from a triple stacked, 5x shield of condemnation on Lailat

Granted, those numbers are crits, but with the full smiting crit line and major arcane lore, I see crits fairly often.

About the build idea, I once considered TR'ing my WF into a shield blocker that just used intim, divine punishment, searing light, cometfall, nimbus of light. The problem with the build is that I don't know how long I could (1) maintain aggro, and (2) how long the spell point pool would last.

The biggest factor a 40 Wis evoker FvS has over a 12 Wis melee FvS is they can spam DC based spells along with DP. I'm happy when things don't save vs my BB, and I don't even bother with Destruction/Implosion.

[mute_mayhem]

The biggest factor a 40 Wis evoker FvS has over a 12 Wis melee FvS is they can spam DC based spells along with DP. I'm happy when things don't save vs my BB, and I don't even bother with Destruction/Implosion.

But how often does destruction land in epics? I know mine (33/35 with heighten) has a very poor chance of landing. BB is cool and all, but it's worthless in raids and epics, party members just fight inside the dang things (note: it is very useful for soloing epics, but I don't want to run the same 3 epic quests endlessly). And there aren't very many useful offensive divine spells to begin with.

I just don't see the point in a wisdom based FvS anymore.

[jakeelala]

the key is to have a FvS that can melee between DoT applications.

The only gear you need to max out DP is:

Superior Brilliance Clickies (VERY easy to make)
That's it.

A greenblade or other arcane lore item is nice to increase the crits. And take the smiting enhancements.

If you have a decent Lord of Blades build with a hate enhancements, and a good DR breaker (crafted silver holy/LOB) there is no reason with a headstart you couldn't keep aggro.

DP at 3 stacks with a couple condemnation debuffs should hit regularly for 400-700 without a crit, and 900-1100 with crits.

Swinging a good sword in between to add hate should do just fine.

BTW: you can do all of the above with 6 Wisdom. You can even throw in 200pt Searing Lights and Nimbus if you want

[Illiain]

But how often does destruction land in epics? I know mine (33/35 with heighten) has a very poor chance of landing. BB is cool and all, but it's worthless in raids and epics, party members just fight inside the dang things (note: it is very useful for soloing epics, but I don't want to run the same 3 epic quests endlessly). And there aren't very many useful offensive divine spells to begin with.

I just don't see the point in a wisdom based FvS anymore.

When running epics, if you toss an Energy Drain before your Destruction you should drop their saves by 5 on average, 2d4 neg levels each casting. That should give you the equivalent of a 38/40 DC which gives a good chance of them failing their save.

That being said, I tend to make my FvS melee based too. I feel it's a waste to have class based attack and damage feats and not actually use them. And yes, for the most part Arcanes will typically have better CC/instakill DCs, so we're better off hitting things and saving sp for buffs, heals and stacking DP on bosses.

[mute_mayhem]

When running epics, if you toss an Energy Drain before your Destruction you should drop their saves by 5 on average, 2d4 neg levels each casting. That should give you the equivalent of a 38/40 DC which gives a good chance of them failing their save.

That being said, I tend to make my FvS melee based too. I feel it's a waste to have class based attack and damage feats and not actually use them. And yes, for the most part Arcanes will typically have better CC/instakill DCs, so we're better off hitting things and saving sp for buffs, heals and stacking DP on bosses.

That's what I do, but I tend to run out of spell points rather quickly, even 3000 spell points can go fast if you have to prep enemies before using destruction.

[voodoogroves]

Superior Brilliance Clickies (VERY easy to make)
That's it.

A greenblade or other arcane lore item is nice to increase the crits. And take the smiting enhancements.

That helps DP; same with Eladar's / Niac's (Sup clickie).

DP at 3 stacks with a couple condemnation debuffs should hit regularly for 400-700 without a crit, and 900-1100 with crits.

What do yours run with no condemnations stacking? That's what a non-AoV FVS or a Cleric would run.

Divine Punishment isn't the problem. It's just the key you're pressing.

[grodon9999]

That's what I do, but I tend to run out of spell points rather quickly, even 3000 spell points can go fast if you have to prep enemies before using destruction.

On Monday's ToD let's see if Meathelmet and your Human can kill Horoth before Sulu drops

[vorpel]

Great thread! I agree with others that well built and gears melee FvS can take and hold agro on end bosses with DP unless there are very well geared melee in the group.

I find the combination of eSoS, Ravager set, Archon, DP (with Eardweller) and various guards to take and hold agro very well. My next addition is to get the epic Claw set to help with heal amp, threat and damage.

It does take a lot of gear, but if you can manage it this is one of the most fun, self-reliant toons I've ever played. Get some GH, Haste and Jump clickies and you are self-sufficient!

[maddmatt70]

I actually think the melee fvs is not the way to go but rather detracts from what is central to FVS DPS now which is spells. Spell pool is less of an issue with torques and the like. You will do much more dps if you just spam spells on the bosses instead of throwing DOTS and meleeing the rest of the time. I favor a shield bearing, self healing with healing word, dot throwing with single target spell damage to add additional damage FVS for boss tanking purposes. To those of you that want to make an SOS wieliding FVS for tanking purposes that is not what the numbers really point too, but rather efficient spells with single target and dot spells and surviveability gear is better for all intents and purposes.

[biggin]

Great thread! I agree with others that well built and gears melee FvS can take and hold agro on end bosses with DP unless there are very well geared melee in the group.

I find the combination of eSoS, Ravager set, Archon, DP (with Eardweller) and various guards to take and hold agro very well. My next addition is to get the epic Claw set to help with heal amp, threat and damage.

It does take a lot of gear, but if you can manage it this is one of the most fun, self-reliant toons I've ever played. Get some GH, Haste and Jump clickies and you are self-sufficient!

And this is the key point.

If you take a well geared melee, TR him into a FVS, get a few clickies and an eard, you have basically just made the 'perfect' FVS tank. I think it would be advantageous if it was a THF with an ESoS because you could drop more feats for your DoT, but I'm sure the build crunchers on here could figure a way to make TWF close to same effectiveness.

[biggin]

I actually think the melee fvs is not the way to go but rather detracts from what is central to FVS DPS now which is spells. Spell pool is less of an issue with torques and the like. You will do much more dps if you just spam spells on the bosses instead of throwing DOTS and meleeing the rest of the time. I favor a shield bearing, self healing with healing word, dot throwing with single target spell damage to add additional damage FVS for boss tanking purposes. To those of you that want to make an SOS wieliding FVS for tanking purposes that is not what the numbers really point too, but rather efficient spells with single target and dot spells and surviveability gear is better for all intents and purposes.

This is definitely a valid point, however I would have to say that as far as playability goes I don't like the idea of using a finite SP pool as the only means of holding aggro. In the event of a Horoth reset or anything else that may go outside the norm, I feel you may be at a disadvantage.

Not saying you are wrong by any means, but I know that going full out spell casting can be costly, and if someone does turn him for any reason you won't have anything to fall back on. With THF you don't need many feats, can still grab all your damage boosting ones, and still have a means to hold aggro over a longer period of time if need be. If your SP were to run out, you would have enough aggro built that an ESoS would hold aggro for the rest of the raid.

[mute_mayhem]

On Monday's ToD let's see if Meathelmet and your Human can kill Horoth before Sulu drops

lol, I seem to remember some runs where we've had to throttle dps on Horoth to make sure Sully dies first...and that was without me using dp

A better idea would be to have me heal the horoth tank, and throw dp on Sully, as long as the Horoth tank is halfway decent

But alas, I'll be out of town Monday, so we'll try it on Thursday

[jakeelala]

I actually think the melee fvs is not the way to go but rather detracts from what is central to FVS DPS now which is spells. Spell pool is less of an issue with torques and the like. You will do much more dps if you just spam spells on the bosses instead of throwing DOTS and meleeing the rest of the time. I favor a shield bearing, self healing with healing word, dot throwing with single target spell damage to add additional damage FVS for boss tanking purposes. To those of you that want to make an SOS wieliding FVS for tanking purposes that is not what the numbers really point too, but rather efficient spells with single target and dot spells and surviveability gear is better for all intents and purposes.

I'm sorry.

Is there a DoT besides DP available to FvS? You don't need to use a shield for DR (WF 20 FVS get DR 11 with no cost). That's a few points lower than with a shield granted, but that's a personal choice I think.

My WF FvS is actually healing word Sword and Board specced currently, as I had a lord of the blades and I wanted to try something different. But the fact is, if I'm going to be healing myself, DP is really the only efficient use of my SP in a long drawn out boss fights. Nimbus and Searing are fun, but they don't do enough damage to justify than SP cost IMO. And healing word is nice, but really only if you've managed the gear to totally max your healing amp. Otherwise it's just nice for topping off between fights.

What efficient spells are you referring to for a FvS besides DP? I think the numbers point to it quite well. If you're tanking you aren't moving enough to make good use of BB. And a SoS wielding FvS can cast just as many Searing lights and Nimbus's as a spell oriented one. Maybe 2-3 less from total spell pool.

If you have a torc and conc opp and demonic shield somewhere, then sure. Just throw spells out like crazy and wait for the blue bar to refill. A lot of people do not have that resource. If you don't, I think adding threat with melee damage is a very reasonable alternative.

But the fact is a melee FvS, as long as they take the big 4 meta feats (quicken, emp healing, emp spell, and maximize) don't lose any damage to spells unles you're talking spells with saves. But honestly, the spells with saves really don't do very good damage to my knowledge on a FvS. I have been toying with the idea of loading implosion for additional threat on raid tanking since it ticks the damage even if you can't kill em with it.

[voodoogroves]

I actually think the melee fvs is not the way to go but rather detracts from what is central to FVS DPS now which is spells. Spell pool is less of an issue with torques and the like. You will do much more dps if you just spam spells on the bosses instead of throwing DOTS and meleeing the rest of the time. I favor a shield bearing, self healing with healing word, dot throwing with single target spell damage to add additional damage FVS for boss tanking purposes. To those of you that want to make an SOS wieliding FVS for tanking purposes that is not what the numbers really point too, but rather efficient spells with single target and dot spells and surviveability gear is better for all intents and purposes.

This is what I do w/ one of mine (it didn't work quite as well before AoV though ... now she's a beast)

I said this to someone in a PM earlier ...

Angel of Vengeance = Savant, not Archmage

Evoker FVS = Wizard-style or pre-U9 DC-based sorc ... the AoV PRE isn't the perfect fit for this style IMHO

[Kinerd]

The bulk of your DPS ignores fortification, DR, and elemental resistances. If you are going against a boss with high marks in those categories, you will therefore have a much easier time of it. You also have a much, much easier time getting the gear you need to max out DP/Archon DPS than a melee needs to max out THF/TWF DPS, so in most cases you won't need to get anywhere near (for instance) these numbers.

For reference, let us calculate out Divine Punishment and the Archon, using the full Smiting line, Brilliance, Empower, and Maximize.

Divine Punishment:
1d6 + 1 / level every 2 seconds, triple on 3rd stack
[(3.5 + 20) * (1 + 1 + .5) * (1 + .4 + .75) * 3] / 2 = 189 DPS
Crits increase by (1 + chance * multiplier increase) percent, so for Arcane Lore and the full prayer lines that's 1 + .15 * 1) = 15%, so = 218 DPS.

Archon: 1d3 + 1 / level every 2 seconds (do Maximize or Empower effect it? the wording seems to indicate no)
[(2 + 20) * (1 + .4 + .75)] / 2 = 24 DPS

Then multiplied by however many shields you can get going.

[sirgog]

This approach worked even before U9 gave FvS's an extra 150-200 DPS* (through Divine Punishment) and the AoV PrE, however back then it required that other melees removed their threat gear (which of course, decent melees do on any fight where aggro control matters more than DPS, such as Horoth). I've tanked Horoth on Normal on a FvS before U9, although we had to put the higher DPS melees on Orthon duty until Suulo spawned.

Unlike pretty much any other kind of tank, you can look after your own healing while the group is dealing with Suulomades, as long as you have Grasp the Earth Dragon. Really only AC Paladins (and maybe AC rangers) with Maximize have any chance of pulling that off. Plus, except for AC tanks, FvS's can be built to have pretty much the best damage mitigation you'll find on Horoth, with up to 15 DR on a WF and a stacking 10 to Fire Resist.

The ring Anathema from Cursed Crypt might be worth considering - according to the DDOwiki, it has a hidden effect that adds 25% spell threat. I can't verify that effect is real, however if it is, that's around 40 threat per second.



* Keeping a 3-stack of this spell up does reduce your melee DPS slightly - the spell is always worth casting, however. The actual act of casting it (once per 12-14 seconds) takes around 1 second and provides ~2000 damage. Someone did the numbers above and says 218 DPS if fully specced for DP - a melee FvS won't likely be quite that specced, so I'll stick to 150-200.

[jakeelala]

- a melee FvS won't likely be quite that specced, so I'll stick to 150-200.

Why not? As we've stated several times, all you need is a superior brilliance clicky. And a greenblade/some arcane lore item for extra crits. Not a lot of equipment to ask, any melee FvS can obtain pretty easily

[Jiirix]

WOW that many post while i were to bed. Don't let my join date misslead you, gear will not be the problem. When I want something I get it, usaually even fast because I am really lucky with loot. I will TR one of my 20 for this toon (if I make it) and will grind some gear in advance. I had the idea making a divine tank because since I took the full enhancement line for light on my cleric I have problems with unwanted aggro on a reguar basis. So why not have the aggro all the time on purpose? The build I posted is a "full" healer too. I would like to heal and use divine punishment. And if there is no tank or the tank loses aggro from DP allone I would be able to tank by myself. What I dont know is where I could get my arcarne lore from. My green blades wont work with a THF weapon and the blue dragon scale is sub optimal.

[sirgog]

Why not? As we've stated several times, all you need is a superior brilliance clicky. And a greenblade/some arcane lore item for extra crits. Not a lot of equipment to ask, any melee FvS can obtain pretty easily

It's the AP you can't spare on a melee build (no chance of taking max Light crits), and you sure as hell won't be meleeing with a Greenblade in your hand.

[jakeelala]

It's the AP you can't spare on a melee build (no chance of taking max Light crits), and you sure as hell won't be meleeing with a Greenblade in your hand.

I will concede the greenbalde, however

Any FvS, melee or not specced, that isn't taking full light damage and crit lines SOLELY for DP and Archon to add damage while they melee is complete and utter fool.

If DP is not in your rotation as a FVS AoV, even if you have an ESoS, claw set, and ToD rings sets, I think you're doing something terribly wrong. It's a HUGE waste of potential damage. And the fact is, FVS meleeing just isn't that good next to a true melee character. They need the added punch of DP constantly ticking.