S&B Barbarian main? Help Please.

[Ngha]

So, today I was playing on my lowbie TWF Barb, when the though occurred to me, "I bet I can mix the best of both TWF and THF." How wrong was I, I'll let you guys figure it out.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.9.1 
DDO Character Planner Home Page  

Level 20 Neutral Good Half-Orc Male 
(8 Fighter / 12 Barbarian) 
Hit Points: 446 
Spell Points: 0 

BAB: 20/20/25/3030 
Fortitude: 20 
Reflex: 6 
Will: 6 

              Starting    Feat/Enhancement 
Abilities    Base Stats    Modified Stats 
(32 Point)    (Level 1)      (Level 20) 
Strength           20                30 
Dexterity           8                10 
Constitution       18                22 
Intelligence        6                 8 
Wisdom              8                10 
Charisma            6                 8 

Tomes Used 
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7 
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7 
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7 
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7 
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7 
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7 
 
              Starting      Feat/Enhancement 
             Base Skills  Modified Skills 
Skills       (Level 1)      (Level 20) 
Balance            -1             0 
Bluff              -2             -1 
Concentration      4              6 
Diplomacy          -2             -1 
Disable Device     n/a            n/a 
Haggle             -2             -1 
Heal               -1             0 
Hide               -1             0 
Intimidate         2              26 
Jump               5              12 
Listen             -1             0 
Move Silently      -1             0 
Open Lock          n/a            n/a 
Perform            n/a            n/a 
Repair             -2             -1 
Search             -2             -1 
Spot               -1             0 
Swim               5              10 
Tumble             1              10 
Use Magic Device   n/a            n/a 
 
Level 1 (Barbarian) 
Feat: (Selected) Toughness 
 
Level 2 (Fighter) 
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Handed Fighting 
 
Level 3 (Fighter) 
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword 
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack 
 
Level 4 (Barbarian) 
 
Level 5 (Barbarian) 
 
Level 6 (Barbarian) 
Feat: (Selected) Cleave 
 
Level 7 (Barbarian) 
 
Level 8 (Barbarian) 
 
Level 9 (Fighter) 
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Bash 
 
Level 10 (Fighter) 
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Shield Mastery 
 
Level 11 (Fighter) 
 
Level 12 (Fighter) 
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Mastery 
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Handed Fighting 
 
Level 13 (Barbarian) 
 
Level 14 (Barbarian) 
 
Level 15 (Barbarian) 
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting 
 
Level 16 (Barbarian) 
 
Level 17 (Barbarian) 
 
Level 18 (Barbarian) 
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons 
 
Level 19 (Fighter) 
 
Level 20 (Fighter) 
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons 
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Class Boost I 
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost I 
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Booost II 
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost III 
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I 
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II 
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III 
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage I 
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage II 
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage III 
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage I 
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage II 
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage III 
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack I 
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack II 
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage I 
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage II 
Enhancement: Barbarian Frenzied Berserker I 
Enhancement: Barbarian Frenzied Berserker II 
Enhancement: Fighter Stalwart Defender I 
Enhancement: Orcish Brute Fighting I 
Enhancement: Orcish Brute Fighting II 
Enhancement: Orcish Brute Fighting III 
Enhancement: Orcish Brute Fighting IV 
Enhancement: Orcish Strength I 
Enhancement: Orcish Strength II 
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I 
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II 
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate I 
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate II 
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution I 
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution II 
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I 
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness I 
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness II 
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness III 
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness IV

Thoughts/suggestions to improve on this S&B Barbarian?

[Horkrux]

Honestly i dont think a sword and board barbarian is effective/efficiant. how ever it is a game and it is meant to be played to have fun.

Okay so if you are intent on a S&B barbarian i would go with the 18/2 barb fighter. 12 barb is really not all that great and 8 fighter doesnt give much over 6 fighter.

18/2 would be your best bet to make a sword and board fighter. just realize that your ac will not be high enough to be effective on hard and elite raids for sure and probably not even on normal.

edit: and usually people who go sword and board tank and any extra hp is always welcomed. in ToD one fail of a disentigrate and you have to be able to survive. 500+ hp is minimum. with out toughness you will be low hp for barb tank

[Ngha]

18/2 would be your best bet to make a sword and board fighter. just realize that your ac will not be high enough to be effective on hard and elite raids for sure and probably not even on normal.

Well, I kinda didn't even pay attention to AC when I was thinking it up, just DR, HP, and threat generation.

The 25% haste boost (at fighter level 8) should bring me up (for 20 seconds) to match other DPSers (Kind of like pure fighters do already) but I'll be raging etc.

Anyone got the numbers on this? Mighty Rage + 25% haste boost for 20 seconds + Rage(pot/spell) + Haste (Spell) + (etc)... to see where I'd stack up? *EDIT* against other threat tank types

[Horkrux]

Do you know what you're Dr will be? What about hp? your a barb so you can get away with out toughness but having toughness will significantly increase your hp and tanking ability.

Yes at fighter level 8 you will have 4 and with enhancements/gear 6 maybe 7 20 second 25 percent haste boosts. Here is what i think is wrong with that.

First) your built for some dps, I.e power attack/barbarian up to level 12. how ever you are not fully built to be all the dps potential a barb could be. so it puts you behind a pure fighter/pure barb /18/2 barb fighter. So if they are in the group with out intimidation you arent going to gain aggro.

Second) If you are in a group with a tank build that splashes either 6 palidan (incite boost) or maxes intim you wont gain aggro and you will be a weak dps splot in the party. some people may not want you in the party.

Sorry to say but i think at level 20 with the feats you are taking and at any of those splits not only will you be a so-so dps at best but you most likely wont be able to hold aggro anyways.

[Viisari]

*EDIT* And any suggestions to improve on this S&B Barbarian?

Yes, don't do it and go THF, there's no point in playing a barb if you're using a shield. And no, haste boost won't put you anywhere near the dps other melees are generating, a well built melee wf fvs will do more dps than you with just his sword.

[andbr22]

Maybe go "normal" barbarian splash route (18 Barb/2 fig)
Go Dwarf and fight with Gaxes (exchange for DAxe + shield only while "alone stage" of Hortoh tanking).

For sure would drop improved shield bash for Improved critical.
I am not sure if shield mastery is worth. Especially since I don't see many oportunieties to use them effectivly (Barbs have high DPS, but the highest DPS are Fighters (and Rogs)), and if you will keep agro in S&B "stance" then your team will probably have troubles (something like 3 rounder part 4 Shroud)...

[Ngha]

This is what I got so far:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.9.1 
DDO Character Planner Home Page  

Level 20 Chaotic Good Human Male 
(8 Fighter / 12 Barbarian) 
Hit Points: 436 
Spell Points: 0 

BAB: 20/20/25/3030 
Fortitude: 19 
Reflex: 6 
Will: 5 

              Starting    Feat/Enhancement 
Abilities    Base Stats    Modified Stats 
(28 Point)    (Level 1)      (Level 20) 
Strength           18                26 
Dexterity          10                10 
Constitution       16                20 
Intelligence        8                 8 
Wisdom              8                 8 
Charisma            8                 8 

              Starting      Feat/Enhancement 
             Base Skills  Modified Skills 
Skills       (Level 1)      (Level 20) 
Balance            2              11 
Bluff              -1             -1 
Concentration      3              5 
Diplomacy          -1             -1 
Disable Device     n/a            n/a 
Haggle             -1             -1 
Heal               -1             -1 
Hide               0              0 
Intimidate         3              26 
Jump               4              12 
Listen             -1             -1 
Move Silently      0              0 
Open Lock          n/a            n/a 
Perform            n/a            n/a 
Repair             -1             -1 
Search             -1             -1 
Spot               1              10 
Swim               4              9 
Tumble             2              2 
Use Magic Device   n/a            n/a 
 
Level 1 (Barbarian) 
Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness 
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting 
 
Level 2 (Fighter) 
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Shield Bash 
 
Level 3 (Fighter) 
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword 
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack 
 
Level 4 (Barbarian) 
 
Level 5 (Barbarian) 
 
Level 6 (Barbarian) 
Feat: (Selected) Cleave 
 
Level 7 (Barbarian) 
 
Level 8 (Barbarian) 
 
Level 9 (Fighter) 
Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery 
 
Level 10 (Fighter) 
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Handed Fighting 
 
Level 11 (Fighter) 
 
Level 12 (Fighter) 
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Handed Fighting 
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Mastery 
 
Level 13 (Barbarian) 
 
Level 14 (Barbarian) 
 
Level 15 (Barbarian) 
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons 
 
Level 16 (Barbarian) 
 
Level 17 (Barbarian) 
 
Level 18 (Barbarian) 
Feat: (Selected) Slicing Blow 
 
Level 19 (Fighter) 
 
Level 20 (Fighter) 
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Sap 
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Class Boost I 
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost I 
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost II 
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost III 
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I 
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II 
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III 
Enhancement: Barbarian Exttend Rage I 
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage II 
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage I 
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage II 
Enhancement: Barbarian Hardy Rage I 
Enhancement: Barbarian Hardy Rage II 
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack I 
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack II 
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage I 
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage II 
Enhancement: Barbarian Frenzied Berserker I 
Enhancement: Barbarian Frenzied Berserker II 
Enhancement: Fighter Stalwart Defender I 
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Constitution I 
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Strength I 
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I 
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II 
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III 
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate I 
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate II 
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution I 
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution II 
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution III 
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I 
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II 
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness I 
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness II 
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness III 
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness IV

Thoughts?

[Ngha]

OP edited and updated.

[Ngha]

Do you know what you're Dr will be? What about hp?

DR Looks like its going to be 25% + ~10 area depending on current gearset/buffs

HP Looks like its going to be in the ~700 Neighborhood when raged.

[unbongwah]

Thoughts/suggestions to improve on this S&B Barbarian?

Other than hitting Delete?

Without knowing what your goals are, it's tough to offer advice. I've tried coming up with barb / ftr tanks before, with mixed results at best. I've also trying coming up with a mostly-barb shield tank who uses the shield feats for dmg mitigation, not AC:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.9.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 True Neutral Half-Orc Female
(2 Fighter \ 18 Barbarian) 
Hit Points: 398
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 18
Reflex: 8
Will: 6

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             20                    30
Dexterity            12                    14
Constitution         16                    18
Intelligence          8                    10
Wisdom                8                    10
Charisma              6                     8

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Level 1 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack


Level 3 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Stunning Blow


Level 4 (Barbarian)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 5 (Barbarian)


Level 6 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave


Level 7 (Barbarian)


Level 8 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 9 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery


Level 10 (Barbarian)


Level 11 (Barbarian)


Level 12 (Barbarian)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Bash


Level 13 (Barbarian)


Level 14 (Barbarian)


Level 15 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Mastery


Level 16 (Barbarian)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 17 (Barbarian)


Level 18 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh


Level 19 (Barbarian)


Level 20 (Barbarian)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost III
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost IV
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Improved Damage Reduction I
Enhancement: Barbarian Improved Damage Reduction II
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack I
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack II
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack III
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage III
Enhancement: Barbarian Frenzied Berserker I
Enhancement: Barbarian Frenzied Berserker II
Enhancement: Barbarian Frenzied Berserker III
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) I
Enhancement: Orcish Brute Fighting I
Enhancement: Orcish Brute Fighting II
Enhancement: Orcish Brute Fighting III
Enhancement: Orcish Brute Fighting IV
Enhancement: Orcish Extra Action Boost I
Enhancement: Orcish Melee Damage I
Enhancement: Orcish Melee Damage II
Enhancement: Orcish Power Attack I
Enhancement: Orcish Power Attack II
Enhancement: Orcish Power Attack III
Enhancement: Orcish Power Rage I
Enhancement: Orcish Strength I
Enhancement: Orcish Strength II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness I
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness II

[Asketes]

Thoughts/suggestions to improve on this S&B Barbarian?

The only honest solution I can give you is to trade your s/b for a greataxe.

I mean that nicely and not in a trolling/harassing manner.

With a s/b barb you will ALWAYS have sub-par, way below AA, DPS and no worthwhile AC once you get to gianthold and beyond.

[elraido]

The only honest solution I can give you is to trade your s/b for a greataxe.

I mean that nicely and not in a trolling/harassing manner.

With a s/b barb you will ALWAYS have sub-par, way below AA, DPS and no worthwhile AC once you get to gianthold and beyond.

I don't think he is aiming for AC. I think he is aiming at DR. With shield mastery,and a tower shield...he would be adding 20% DR to a barbs already half way decent DR. Now that I think about it, isn't there improved shield mastery for a total of 25%?

Now that I think about it even more....new brigadine plate for 20% neg absorbstion, craft gs items for all the elementals % reduction....then healing amp all the way up to go along with vamperism items. I think I might need to play with this idea.

[Milfeulle]

I don't think he is aiming for AC. I think he is aiming at DR. With shield mastery,and a tower shield...he would be adding 20% DR to a barbs already half way decent DR.

Barb with a sheild? Hmm...

[EustaceTrevelyan]

You'd be better off going with s-b b-sword/THF paladin, for the intim/hate bonuses, which is what i'm trying. Only level 7, so have no idea how things are going to go. But you can't just s-b, you have to swing that big piece of metal and then boost intim with sheild, alternating to keep dps threat and shield intim. It's a button mash fest, and might not even be all that awesome compared to say 6 pally 14 fighter, but we'll see.

Or maybe i'm wrong and you WOULDN"T be better off, lol. (this is my opinion and may have no actual resemblance to reality)

[kernal42]

The 20% damage reduction from holding a shield is not enough. Most heals are masses, and these are limited by the weakest in the group; not the 700 hp DR'd barb. You won't have enough dps to hold aggro, so it will be difficult for you to become the limiting factor in heals. Even when you are, you're still requiring 75% as many heals as you would without the shield, while at the same time taking 20-40% longer to kill everything because of the reduced dps.

Despite the reduced incoming damage you will experience, your runs will tend to be *more* resource-intensive just because enemies stay alive longer. Note, also, that the most dangerous enemy attacks (spells) are not affected by the damage reduction. Note also that the extra DR you get from blocking (which is great) reduces your dps to 0.

-Kernal

[Kinerd]

Well, I kinda didn't even pay attention to AC when I was thinking it up, just DR, HP, and threat generation.

The 25% haste boost (at fighter level 8) should bring me up (for 20 seconds) to match other DPSers (Kind of like pure fighters do already) but I'll be raging etc.

Anyone got the numbers on this? Mighty Rage + 25% haste boost for 20 seconds + Rage(pot/spell) + Haste (Spell) + (etc)... to see where I'd stack up? *EDIT* against other threat tank types

The trouble is that to calculate DPS you absolutely need to know attacks per second, which Vanshilar measured for THF, THF twitch, TWF, and monk unarmed, but not s&b.

I just ran a quick comparison against 12/8 DPS (THF/TWF) builds, and they were a little lower than pure fighters and barbs. It stands to reason that s&b would be a lot worse. I don't think anyone's tested the numerical benefits of intimidating with a shield, but from the times I've played with it the duration of the hate boost is so small that I can't imagine you keeping pace with it.

[Ngha]

Hmm, very interesting information, I suppose somehow I'll have to find out how to increase my threat and DPS.

Maybe theoretically I wouldn't be able to hold aggro, but realistically I could hold aggro in a raid that doesn't have a max geared tank?

How would I increase my threat?

How about DPS with a shield?

*EDIT*Also I'm not concentrating on AC at all, simply DR. Secondary to that I'm concentrating on Threat generation, and Thirdly concentrating on DPS. To me its the only way to give this kind of a build a shot. Also I decid3ed to swap out Bswords for Daxes for those evil Fortified enemies (How did they get a minos anyways?)

[Ngha]

Oh yeah, why does everyone use Stunning blow instead of Sap in their builds?

*EDIT* Also unfortunately I am still F2P. So I can't use HOrcs, thanks for the build suggestion though.

[kernal42]

Oh yeah, why does everyone use Stunning blow instead of Sap in their builds?

Hitting a stunned enemy does 50% extra damage. Hitting a sapped enemy breaks the sap so they start hitting back again.

Re: Holding aggro.
If you're not holding aggro, then having a shield to reduce (the zero) incoming damage doesn't matter.

Re: S&B dps.
DPS with one hand is necessarily less than dps with two hands. You simply have more at your disposal to hurt the enemy with if you're not holding a shield.

Re: BS vs DA.
The two behave identically against 100% fort enemies; Bastard Sword is slightly better against enemies with < 100% fortification (due to seeker bonuses), while DAxe is always better in the hands of a dwarf (due to racial bonuses). Both grant glancing blows, if you are S&B. [Note: THF also grants glancing blows, but does more damage on every hit].

Cheers,
Kernal

[Ngha]

Hitting a Saped enemy also puts their aggro on you?

People besides main tank do get hit.

True, I'm hoping that the thf glancing blows combines with a one shield bash per chain brings it up a little

I thought daxe was 1d12 for some reason, I guess I'm going to go see fred today.

Really though, how to raise the threat/dps?



Also, Thanks for the people who actually attempt to help with this build instead of just say things along the lines of: "sucks, don't do that, delete"