S&B Barbarian main? Help Please.

[Scraap]

Don't forget str bonus. For 50 str character (low for a barb), that's a difference of 10 damage a swing (multiplied on crits); about 5 on glancing blows.

-Kernal

not quite. Been toying with an S&B WF fighter off and on since that update:



Full tohit and damage for both, albiet proccing at 20%, so ends up being 1.2 instead of 1.5 (Yes, I know it's worse than your calc, but in the interests of maintaining accuracy, figured the observation should be noted.)

[Ngha]

anyone look over my math yet?

[kernal42]

not quite. Been toying with an S&B WF fighter off and on since that update:



Full tohit and damage for both, albiet proccing at 20%, so ends up being 1.2 instead of 1.5 (Yes, I know it's worse than your calc, but in the interests of maintaining accuracy, figured the observation should be noted.)

While your screenshot is not proof (+7 damage is possible with +2 weapon, +5 PA, and 10 str), I'll take your word for it. It is interesting that shield gets full str bonus.

In the interest of completeness, I'd want to write down the full str-scaling; however I don't know enough about glancing blows to do so exactly.

I suspect it's something around:
THF: 2.25 * str per swing
S&B: 1.7*str per swing

-Kernal

[Ngha]

I never thought this thread would last this long and get as serious as to have OTHER people trying to do the maths...

woot.

[Scraap]

While your screenshot is not proof (+7 damage is possible with +2 weapon, +5 PA, and 10 str), I'll take your word for it. It is interesting that shield gets full str bonus.

In the interest of completeness, I'd want to write down the full str-scaling; however I don't know enough about glancing blows to do so exactly.

I suspect it's something around:
THF: 2.25 * str per swing
S&B: 1.7*str per swing

-Kernal

lesee... so far, 20 base, no PA, +2 weapon and shield.
THF1+10% (from base 20%), THF2+10%, for a 40% verrified amp there. Greater will add an extra 10%.
It should be noted that not all swings proc a glancing blow though. (Forget the exact progression... lil help?)

Non STR wise, it's 3% per step for weapon effects from feats, and 2% per step (3 steps) from racial enhancements.

Kensi would add additional damage, but, like the op, the notion on this particular experiment was seeing the viability of throwing in dr% and dr/adamantine from 1-20, so went with SD and the DR feats.

[kernal42]

lesee... so far, 20 base, no PA, +2 weapon and shield.
THF1+10% (from base 20%), THF2+10%, for a 40% verrified amp there. Greater will add an extra 10%.
It should be noted that not all swings proc a glancing blow though. (Forget the exact progression... lil help?)

Non STR wise, it's 3% per step for weapon effects from feats, and 2% per step (3 steps) from racial enhancements.

Kensi would add additional damage, but, like the op, the notion on this particular experiment was seeing the viability of throwing in dr% and dr/adamantine from 1-20, so went with SD and the DR feats.

I just looked this up for another thread, so I'll answer here.
In general, you get glancing blows on first and fourth animations.
With GTWF, you also get a glancing blow on the third animation (for 50% of base weapon damage).

So strength scaling for GTHF against 100% fort:
1.5 (base) + 0.75*0.5*1.5 (glancing) = 2.34
Against 0% fort using SoS: 3.29

Strength scaling for S&B with GTHF against 100% fort:
1.0 (base) + 0.75*0.5*1.0 (glancing) + 0.2 (shield) = 1.58
Against 0% fort using BS/DA: 1.80

The difference ranges from:
0.76 * str mod per swing (100% fort).
1.49 * str mod per swing (0% fort; THF has SoS).

Part of this is just because the SoS has such a great crit profile, but nonetheless: Against a 0% fort target, a 50-str barb is doing, on average, an extra 30 damage/swing just from applying the str bonus more effectively with THF than S&B.

Cheers,
Kernal

Edit: As an aside, TWF khopesh user does damage equal to str*2 on every swing. Naturally these numbers are higher for Tempest III (2.27), Kensei fighter 20 (2.29), and FB III (2.43).

[Kinerd]

should be enough to tank effectively provided max dps melees don't wear hate gear or learn to use bluff/diplo.

That would make for some hilarious LFMs, at least. "Need DPS barb, MUST HAVE DIPLO".

But anyway, the only thing S&B with a bastard sword doesn't have compared to THF is +5 to power attack damage. Is that such a huge dps loss, especially with shield bashes?

The loss of DPS prestiges is a real killer. Frenzied Berserker III is a huge increase over Frenzied Berserkers I and II. Bastard swords are also generally sub-optimal weapons, especially in the non-greensteel variety that are favored for boss fights.

It's also still an open question how S&B speed compares to THF speed.

15.5[[GSGS]]*1.50[[THF 50%]]

The THF 1.5 applies to damage from Strength bonus only.

[Ngha]

That would make for some hilarious LFMs, at least. "Need DPS barb, MUST HAVE DIPLO".The loss of DPS prestiges is a real killer. Frenzied Berserker III is a huge increase over Frenzied Berserkers I and II. Bastard swords are also generally sub-optimal weapons, especially in the non-greensteel variety that are favored for boss fights.

It's also still an open question how S&B speed compares to THF speed.The THF 1.5 applies to damage from Strength bonus only.

YEah thought I misplaced that, just didn't want to bother with it. to correct it but I guess after my nap its no biggie:

GS THF: (15.5[[GSGS]]+14[[min/lit II]]+10[[PA]]+(25[[conservative Str bonus]]*1.5[[THF str bonus]])+7[[vicious]] = 84 = 420 against 100% fort for one full attack chain (simply weapon damage no modifiers)

S&B: (8.5[[+5TS]]+3.5[[spikes]]+3.5[[bashing]]+5[[PA]]+25[[conservative str bonus]]+7[[vicious]]) = 52.5
-----14[[GSBS]]+14[[min/lit II]+5[[PA]]+25[[conservative str bonus]]+7[[vicious]] = 65 = 325 + 52.5[[shield procing once a chain]] = 377.5 (100% fort)

+ ~20% threat items

546 VS 453

546 + 25% WF

682 becomes the number to beat, as shown before SDII will give a top of 679.3, however...

HOrcs give +25% threat to all melee attacks, so if I were to switch this around a bit for a S&B...

453 becomes 566.25

SDI makes it a whopping 707.81!

682 VS 707.81.... S&B WINS!

All I would have to do to alter this build to HOrc would be drop slicing blow, and S&B becomes the new threat tank.

[Ngha]

Okay here's the new build, with threat "out the wazoo", I also changed the OP to reflect this build.
*EDIT* math for threat gen is supplied in previous post.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.9.1 
DDO Character Planner Home Page  

Level 20 Neutral Good Half-Orc Male 
(8 Fighter / 12 Barbarian) 
Hit Points: 446 
Spell Points: 0 

BAB: 20/20/25/3030 
Fortitude: 20 
Reflex: 6 
Will: 6 

              Starting    Feat/Enhancement 
Abilities    Base Stats    Modified Stats 
(32 Point)    (Level 1)      (Level 20) 
Strength           20                30 
Dexterity           8                10 
Constitution       18                22 
Intelligence        6                 8 
Wisdom              8                10 
Charisma            6                 8 

Tomes Used 
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7 
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7 
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7 
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7 
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7 
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7 
 
              Starting      Feat/Enhancement 
             Base Skills  Modified Skills 
Skills       (Level 1)      (Level 20) 
Balance            -1             0 
Bluff              -2             -1 
Concentration      4              6 
Diplomacy          -2             -1 
Disable Device     n/a            n/a 
Haggle             -2             -1 
Heal               -1             0 
Hide               -1             0 
Intimidate         2              26 
Jump               5              12 
Listen             -1             0 
Move Silently      -1             0 
Open Lock          n/a            n/a 
Perform            n/a            n/a 
Repair             -2             -1 
Search             -2             -1 
Spot               -1             0 
Swim               5              10 
Tumble             1              10 
Use Magic Device   n/a            n/a 
 
Level 1 (Barbarian) 
Feat: (Selected) Toughness 
 
Level 2 (Fighter) 
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Handed Fighting 
 
Level 3 (Fighter) 
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword 
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack 
 
Level 4 (Barbarian) 
 
Level 5 (Barbarian) 
 
Level 6 (Barbarian) 
Feat: (Selected) Cleave 
 
Level 7 (Barbarian) 
 
Level 8 (Barbarian) 
 
Level 9 (Fighter) 
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Bash 
 
Level 10 (Fighter) 
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Shield Mastery 
 
Level 11 (Fighter) 
 
Level 12 (Fighter) 
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Mastery 
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Handed Fighting 
 
Level 13 (Barbarian) 
 
Level 14 (Barbarian) 
 
Level 15 (Barbarian) 
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting 
 
Level 16 (Barbarian) 
 
Level 17 (Barbarian) 
 
Level 18 (Barbarian) 
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons 
 
Level 19 (Fighter) 
 
Level 20 (Fighter) 
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons 
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Class Boost I 
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost I 
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Booost II 
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost III 
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I 
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II 
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III 
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage I 
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage II 
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage III 
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage I 
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage II 
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage III 
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack I 
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack II 
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage I 
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage II 
Enhancement: Barbarian Frenzied Berserker I 
Enhancement: Barbarian Frenzied Berserker II 
Enhancement: Fighter Stalwart Defender I 
Enhancement: Orcish Brute Fighting I 
Enhancement: Orcish Brute Fighting II 
Enhancement: Orcish Brute Fighting III 
Enhancement: Orcish Brute Fighting IV 
Enhancement: Orcish Strength I 
Enhancement: Orcish Strength II 
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I 
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II 
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate I 
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate II 
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution I 
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution II 
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I 
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness I 
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness II 
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness III 
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness IV

Now I need your thoughts and suggestions to make this better than it is, aka pump more DPS (hence more threat) out of this build while maintaining it's comfortable threat superiority.

So what do you say?

*EDIT* I will be using haste boosts extensively, should I swap out IC: BLudgeon for quick draw to get my 1sec of attacking back per haste boost?

[kernal42]

Your math confuses me, I think because it is incorrect, but also because you use lines like "= 65 = 325 + 52.5[[shield procing once a chain]] = 377.5 (100% fort)". 65 does not equal 377.5. I think you're trying to extrapolate damage per hit into damage per attack sequence, but incorrectly; an attack sequence gets 4 attacks, not 5. Furthermore, you're ignoring glancing blows and critical hits, both of which are significant and in favor of THF.

Let's consider fighting a raid boss (50% fort, and the kind of thing you need to be able to tank) and using a +4 holy silver of EOB weapon - this is a slight step up from a MinII, and easier to make. I'll go with your assumption of a 60 sustainable str, but I'll use a falchion because it is better. Also, +6 seeker.

THF Damage:
[base] = 2d4 + 6 (weapon) + 37 (str) + 16 (PA) = 64
[effects] = 2d6 holy + 2d6 EOB + 2d6 vicious = 21
Over 20 swings, 16 normal hits for 64+21 damage each, or 1360 damage
Over 20 swings, 3 critical hits for (64+6)*2+21 damage each, or 483 damage.
Over 20 swings, 1843 damage, or 92.15 damage per swing.

THF Glancing:
Glancing blows will do half base (32), and have a 13% chance to proc effects for 21 damage, adding 2.73 per hit. Average glancing blow damage, including missing on a 1, is 33 damage.

Average damage per swing, with a 75% chance for a glancing blow, is 111.2.

S&B Damage:
[base] = 1d10+6 (weapon) +25 (str) +8 (PA) = 44.5
[effects] = as above: 21
Over 20 swings, 18 normal hits for 44.5 + 21 damage each, or 1244.5 damage
Over 20 swings, 1 critical hit for (44.5+6)*3 + 21 damage, or 172.5 damage
Over 20 swings, 1417 damage, or 70.85 damage per swing.

S&B Glancing:
Glancing blows will do half base (22.25), and have a 13% chance to proc effects for 21 damage, adding 2.73 per hit.
Average glancing blow damage, including missing on a 1, is 23.73

S&B Shield Bash:
[base] = 1d6 +5 (shield) +25 (str) +8 (PA) = 41.5
[effects] = 1d6 (bashing) +1d6 (spikes) +2d6 (vicious) = 14
Over 20 swings, 18 normal hits for 41.5 +14 damage each, or 999 damage
Over 20 swings, 1 critical hit for (41.5+6)*2 + 14 damage, or 109 damage
Over 20 swings, 1108 damage, or 55.4 per proc.

Average damage per swing, with 75% glancing blow proc and 20% shield bash proc, is 99.73 damage.

With 20% hate items on each, and S&B with an extra 25% hate, threat per swing comes to:
THF: 133.44
S&B: 144.61

S&B is ahead slightly, but probably by enough to hold aggro.

Unfortunately, this conclusion is somewhat flawed: You see that the 12/8 S&B build can hold aggro against a 12/8 THF build, which is a bad dps build.

To drive this point home: Let's calculate what your actual threat per second is. You're generating 144.61 threat per swing and (assuming same attack rates as THF), you're getting 20 seconds of haste boost III attacks (at 122.2/min) and 10 seconds of just hasted attacks (at 99.9/min). So over one minute, you're looking at 114.8 attacks per minute which gives you 276.7 tps. (You'll have 191 dps).

That will not hold aggro against even poorly geared characters, while well-geared characters are looking at producing 600-700 threat per second.

-Kernal

[Ngha]

There is something very wrong with your math, some fundamental thing that I can't quite lace my finger on but I know its there, I'll let you know later.

[Ngha]

That will not hold aggro against even poorly geared characters, while well-geared characters are looking at producing 600-700 threat per second.

yeah this part, link me to how they got that much threat? also why mine isn't? Both maths can't be right, I even did the calc for a TWF on the other thread, my math is right, and where you're saying I'm wrong you're not providing numbers for.

*EDIT*

I mean unless you're talking about that magical fantasy land where no bosses have fort and sneak attack hits every time?

[kernal42]

yeah this part, link me to how they got that much threat? also why mine isn't? Both maths can't be right, I even did the calc for a TWF on the other thread, my math is right, and where you're saying I'm wrong you're not providing numbers for.

*EDIT*

I mean unless you're talking about that magical fantasy land where no bosses have fort and sneak attack hits every time?

I counted 50% fort and no sneak attack.

Our numbers are obviously different because you're counting damage per attack animation while I'm counting damage per second (which, counting haste boosts etc, is the better value).

Here's a fairly recent and approximately up-to-date dps chart. The characters have excellent builds and excellent gear, of course, but in general not the best possible of either. Still, the only build there that you would hold aggro against is the TWF pure FvS. They're using better gear, of course, but not that much better.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=299620

-Kernal

Edit: I did try to be clear and unambiguous at every step of my calculation, to facilitate finding of errors (or verifying lack thereof).

[Ngha]

Oh I was talking about the 600-700 TPS numbers, sorry for the confusion.

However I remember what we forgot, when it comes down to brass tacks, I'll be supreme cleaving.. alot could you add those numbers in to my DPS/TPS, as well as the intim mashing?

Also put me up against the max DPS THF and TWF builds in the 100% fort bracket, which this build is specifically for. and lets just assume equal gear to keep it simple.

Sorry about my other post but I thought you were getting confrontational instead of conversational.

[kernal42]

Oh I was talking about the 600-700 TPS numbers, sorry for the confusion.

However I remember what we forgot, when it comes down to brass tacks, I'll be supreme cleaving.. alot could you add those numbers in to my DPS/TPS, as well as the intim mashing?

Also put me up against the max DPS THF and TWF builds in the 100% fort bracket, which this build is specifically for. and lets just assume equal gear to keep it simple.

Sorry about my other post but I thought you were getting confrontational instead of conversational.

The 600-700 TPS numbers are correct for 0% fort; probably a little high for 50% for for all but the best geared characters. Still, most of these standard dps builds with good gear hit about 500 tps against 50% fort.

IIRC, supreme cleave is a slight reduction in single-target dps, so I have not included it. AoE dps is less interesting to me because it is not applicable in the boss fights where holding aggro is most useful.

Regarding gear, I did not make this spreadsheet, and have no desire to recreate it with specific gear choices . The spreadsheet is public, though, so you can add to it or edit it as you desire.

Regarding fortification, I performed my calculation at 50% fort because this is the fortification of raid bosses (excluding the Abbot with 0% and Velah with 0%). What 100% fort targets is this build designed for?

Cheers,
Kernal

[Feithlin]

YEah thought I misplaced that, just didn't want to bother with it. to correct it but I guess after my nap its no biggie:

GS THF: (15.5[[GSGS]]+14[[min/lit II]]+10[[PA]]+(25[[conservative Str bonus]]*1.5[[THF str bonus]])+7[[vicious]] = 84 = 420 against 100% fort for one full attack chain (simply weapon damage no modifiers)

S&B: (8.5[[+5TS]]+3.5[[spikes]]+3.5[[bashing]]+5[[PA]]+25[[conservative str bonus]]+7[[vicious]]) = 52.5
-----14[[GSBS]]+14[[min/lit II]+5[[PA]]+25[[conservative str bonus]]+7[[vicious]] = 65 = 325 + 52.5[[shield procing once a chain]] = 377.5 (100% fort)

+ ~20% threat items

546 VS 453

546 + 25% WF

682 becomes the number to beat, as shown before SDII will give a top of 679.3, however...

HOrcs give +25% threat to all melee attacks, so if I were to switch this around a bit for a S&B...

453 becomes 566.25

SDI makes it a whopping 707.81!

682 VS 707.81.... S&B WINS!

All I would have to do to alter this build to HOrc would be drop slicing blow, and S&B becomes the new threat tank.

You made an error in your calculation:
If your threat generation bonus is 20% (gear) + 25% Horc + 25% SD I = 70%, then your tps will be dps * 1.7.
In your examples, S&B tps = 377 * 1.7 = 641, which is not enough.

Additionaly, you take a target with 100% fort while a 50% would probably be more advantageous to the THF.

*Edit: if you want to know your math error, you counted threat modifiers multiplicaly instead of additionaly.

[Ngha]

IIRC, supreme cleave is a slight reduction in single-target dps, so I have not included it. AoE dps is less interesting to me because it is not applicable in the boss fights where holding aggro is most useful.
but you included it in your previous calculations with glancing blows?

Regarding fortification, I performed my calculation at 50% fort because this is the fortification of raid bosses (excluding the Abbot with 0% and Velah with 0%). What 100% fort targets is this build designed for? any number of 100% fort mobs/bosses, undead, constructs, etc.

red

[Ngha]

*Edit: if you want to know your math error, you counted threat modifiers multiplicaly instead of additionaly.

ah thank you, I was under some kind of impression that they stacked.

[kernal42]

Glancing blows apply to every target in your arc; this includes your main target, so glancing blows apply to single-target dps.

The only raid boss with 100% fortification is the Black Abbot, and he cannot be tanked.
(Almost?) all end-game bosses have 0% or 50% fortification.

-Kernal

[Ngha]

It seems that TWF does in fact increase the proc rate of a shield bash.

note: I have only tried this with TWF, not ITWF or GTWF.

If a dev or someone on lammania with a TWF could possibly use fred to swap a feat for improved shield bashing really quick to confirm how many times it procs, it would be a great help.