Sorc Polar Ray math

[~STERLIN1]

It is simply the damage equivalent of finger of death and other such spells that sorcs are now less likely to take. "Flavor".

[MindCake]

your critical damage multiplier is also off. it should be:

non-crit * (1 + 1.75 enhancement + 0.5 lore)
= non-crit * 3.25
= 2566.6875-3850.03125 damage.

I thought crit enhancements only go up to 125% damage...

[Jaid314]

I thought crit enhancements only go up to 125% damage...

hmmm...

note to self: no more doing math at 3 AM... =S

(i think i added the 50% base to the +125%, when it's already factored in...)

[Adrenas]

In game it says maximum caster level, however, in release note:

◦The Sorcerer Elemental Savant set bonuses from Tower of Despair items now apply their third tier effects, which are accessible if a character has taken the third tier of an Elemental Savant Prestige Enhancement line. The bonuses will increase the caster level of spells from a player's chosen Savant element by an additional +2.

Release note does not mention max caster level and clearly says increase the savant element by an additionoal +2.

If so, the maximum caster level for polar ray would be 28.

A Dev's response would be appreciated.

I agree. A Dev's response would be appreciated. I've been searching the forums for answers to questions on that set bonus. I was actually wondering if the CL/MCL bonus had been removed entirely since it doesn't say anything about that in the set bonus text of my telvi's sash.

[tinyelvis]

A small point:

The capstone damage bonus should be applied in the enhancement bracket not the meta magic bracket. The calculations above are still not completely correct.

[Habreno]

It is a feat bonus. It's correctly applied.

[Shade]

What we learned from this:
Math is hard. DDO is very complex.

Rather then do gueswork math at thats never accurate -I personally tested this with the best I had on lam from a while ago..

Didn't have abishai sets or ToD ring, but otherwise maxxed out on gear (eardweller, major lore, pure water savant sorc).

Was about 1k polar ray no crits. ~3k crits.

Against the crystals in mired in kobolds, you could crit for 30,000+ =)

Now less math, and more screenshots. I like screenshots.

And re the set bonuses: Yea there are +MCL. There have already been dev words on this, don't ask for more, just search. I dont have my sorc at 18 atm (TRd and didnt bother asking for XP as I was busy raiding), but I remember seeing a SS where it does actaully show the description saying +MCL, but just in the combat log, not on the item itself.

[Shade]

A small point:

The capstone damage bonus should be applied in the enhancement bracket not the meta magic bracket. The calculations above are still not completely correct.

They can't.

Thats how the capstone originally was coded.

It didn't work because it wouldnt stack with any other enhancements.

For whatever reason, the devs are currently completely unable to stack dmg boost.. Be they from enhancements, or items. They tried on the eardweller as well, its meant to stakc, just the game doesnt support it for some reason.

So the only way they could get the capstone to function, was to set it up as a feat.. A sort of always on empower. It also only works on spells that can be empowered due to how its coded, but works regardless if you have empower toggles on or not.

[Roaringdragon]

Can Someone show the math calculation for this vid?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7g_L...eature=related
Even though its not related to polar ray

[Shade]

Can Someone show the math calculation for this vid?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7g_L...eature=related
Even though its not related to polar ray

It not really that relevant as it's using bugged enhancements that were heavily nerfed before launch - video is from an very old lamannia build in U9 when you could 5x stack the vuln, and it stacked multiplicatively. Theres 100k+ screenshot crit polar ray on the same crystal floating around.

So crystal as a base takes 1000% spell dmg.. so the math was something weird like:
1000% * 115%% * 115% * 115% * 115% * 115% * spell dmg

Imo due to videos like this turbine overreacted and really nerfed savants to a level where they debuff is barely even relevant anymore, but oh well... Sorcs in general with our without a pre are still pretty crazy.

Atm polar is almost the only spell in the game to get any significant boost from savants, due to the heavy handed nerfs and poorly thought out bonuses. (CL Caps scew everything up)

[Roaringdragon]

It not really that relevant as it's using bugged enhancements that were heavily nerfed before launch - video is from an very old lamannia build in U9 when you could 5x stack the vuln, and it stacked multiplicatively. Theres 100k+ screenshot crit polar ray on the same crystal floating around.

So crystal as a base takes 1000% spell dmg.. so the math was something weird like:
1000% * 115%% * 115% * 115% * 115% * 115% * spell dmg

Imo due to videos like this turbine overreacted and really nerfed savants to a level where they debuff is barely even relevant anymore, but oh well... Sorcs in general with our without a pre are still pretty crazy.

Atm polar is almost the most only spell in the game to get any significant boost from savants, due to the heavy handed nerfs and poorly thought out bonuses. (CL Caps scew everything up)

Ah thx Shade, didn't know how he hit that number

[Adrenas]

What we learned from this:
Math is hard. DDO is very complex.

Rather then do gueswork math at thats never accurate -I personally tested this with the best I had on lam from a while ago..

Didn't have abishai sets or ToD ring, but otherwise maxxed out on gear (eardweller, major lore, pure water savant sorc).

Was about 1k polar ray no crits. ~3k crits.

Against the crystals in mired in kobolds, you could crit for 30,000+ =)

Now less math, and more screenshots. I like screenshots.

And re the set bonuses: Yea there are +MCL. There have already been dev words on this, don't ask for more, just search. I dont have my sorc at 18 atm (TRd and didnt bother asking for XP as I was busy raiding), but I remember seeing a SS where it does actaully show the description saying +MCL, but just in the combat log, not on the item itself.

If my searches had come up with any dev responses then I wouldn't have asked about one. In fact, I found this thread from just such a search and so far it has been the only thread remotely relevant to what I want to know. If someone with less search-fail than me has found one then I would happily follow a link to read any dev response that was given. You sound like you've seen a dev response on it so i'm fine with just taking your word for it though.

[tinyelvis]

They can't.

Thats how the capstone originally was coded.

It didn't work because it wouldnt stack with any other enhancements.

.............

Like you I believe actual trials are better than analytical work or sometimes even developers comments. In the distant past, I looked into this issue. This is what I found and the logic I used to come to this conclusion.

Polar Ray with Superior Glaciation CLicky (+ 75%)
Expected Value = 175
20 shot Ave Damage = 176.2
Apparent Boost = 75%

Polar Ray with Superior Glaciation (+ 50%)
Expected Value = 150
20 shot Ave Damage = 148.7
Apparent Boost = 50%

Polar Ray with 4 Ice/Cold Damage Enhancements (+40%) and Superior Glac Clicky (+75%)
Expected Value = 215
20 shot Ave Damage = 216.3
Apparent Boost = 115%

Polar Ray with Max Enh (+40%) and SGC (+75%) and Maximize (+100%)
Expected Value = 430
20 shot Ave Damage = 425.21

From this test we can deduce that Maximize is applied after damage for enhancements and items is calculated (since we did not see an average value of 315). Therefore maximize does actually increase damage by a factor of 2 (and in fact maximize and empower increases by 2.5).

Polar Ray with Max Enh (+40%) and SGC (+75%) and Max (+100%) and Capstone(+20%)
Expected Value if Capstone Doubles Damage = 516
Expected Value if Capstone Adds to Maximize = 475
Expected Value if Capstone Adds to Enhancements = 470
20 shot Ave Damage = 469.2

From this test it is highly probable that the capstone adds to the enhancement bonus level of modifiers. Though, to be absolutely sure I would recommend many more tests in all of the above.

Keep in mind these tests and numbers were run before Sorc Pre update in this thread ( http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=248390 ). Now, you might notice I pointed out that more test runs would be better, however, based on these trials, it appears that capstone is applied in the enhancement bracket.

Shade, you may be correct about the type of buff it is. However, I am not completely convinced that it is applied in meta magic bracket. At any rate, it is a small point.

[Shade]

Like you I believe actual trials are better than analytical work or sometimes even developers comments. In the distant past, I looked into this issue. This is what I found and the logic I used to come to this conclusion.

Exactly. And the same reasons we can't trust the ingame descriptions or the developers words is why we can't trust your math, nor anyone elses.

Can we trust the numbers if we know the exact formula behind it? Perhaps if we had someone impatial to do them, that was an advanced military android that never made mistakes.

You sir are not 100% impartial, nor an advanced military android. Nor is anyone else on the forum. Everyone has a motive, everyone is human, everyone makes mistakes.

The developers told us for years that fireball did 1d6 damage per cl. We know how true that was.

Question everything. Test it yourself. You'll become a much better player.

Actual trials are the ONLY thing we can trust.

Dev words, ingame descriptions.. All too often have these failed us. I think .at least 95% of spell descriptions are either blantantly wrong, or at least inaccurate in some ways.

Tho many of us are working on the DDOwiki to make it the best source of accurate, ingame verified information. So if you want the truth, often verified by many smart players, thats often the best place to head. Ofcourse like anything, it has errors.. But since it's freely editable by all, the errors can always be corrected and verified by multple players, which is the best thing to trust.

Trust the whole of community effort, the wiki, not any one single person and you'll get the closest to the truth.

[in4theride75]

Like you I believe actual trials are better than analytical work or sometimes even developers comments. In the distant past, I looked into this issue. This is what I found and the logic I used to come to this conclusion.

Keep in mind these tests and numbers were run before Sorc Pre update in this thread ( http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=248390 ). Now, you might notice I pointed out that more test runs would be better, however, based on these trials, it appears that capstone is applied in the enhancement bracket.

Shade, you may be correct about the type of buff it is. However, I am not completely convinced that it is applied in meta magic bracket. At any rate, it is a small point.

Bargh, here I am bringing up a necro post but I have to correct some math.

Polar Ray with Superior Glaciation CLicky (+ 75%)
Expected Value = 175
20 shot Ave Damage = 176.2
Apparent Boost = 75%

Polar Ray with Superior Glaciation (+ 50%)
Expected Value = 150
20 shot Ave Damage = 148.7
Apparent Boost = 50%

Polar Ray with 4 Ice/Cold Damage Enhancements (+40%) and Superior Glac Clicky (+75%)
Expected Value = 215
20 shot Ave Damage = 216.3
Apparent Boost = 115%

Polar Ray with Max Enh (+40%) and SGC (+75%) and Maximize (+100%)
Expected Value = 430
20 shot Ave Damage = 425.21

From this test we can deduce that Maximize is applied after damage for enhancements and items is calculated (since we did not see an average value of 315). Therefore maximize does actually increase damage by a factor of 2 (and in fact maximize and empower increases by 2.5).

Polar Ray with Max Enh (+40%) and SGC (+75%) and Max (+100%) and Capstone(+20%)
Expected Value if Capstone Doubles Damage = 516
Expected Value if Capstone Adds to Maximize = 473 (2.2*2.15)
Expected Value if Capstone Adds to Enhancements = 470 2*2.35
20 shot Ave Damage = 469.2

From this test it is highly probable that the capstone adds to the enhancement bonus level of modifiers. Though, to be absolutely sure I would recommend many more tests in all of the above.



Now two things to point out;
One, when multipliers are added number variance increases. Your average value when the max feat is applied is +/- 5 from the expected result.

Two, there is no standard deviation calculation. +/- 5 is what is observed at the 2*2.15 mark and your variance would only increase by increasing your multiplier to 2.2*2.15 or 2*2.35. This coupled with the fact that you are closer to your expected value (+/-4) than by the calculation of the max feat (+/-5) from the capstone applied to the feat location means that this is not a definitive statement. If your standard deviation was +/- .2 that would be one thing, but chances are a standard deviation calculation would be in the ball park of 30.

While this rules out that capstone doubles power (as you listed) it does not rule out capstone as applying to either enhancements or feats. With a die roll that varies from 20d3+60 for an accurate and definitive statement hundreds, if not thousands, of polar rays would need to be fired to reduce the standard deviation to a more central mean.

[LightBear]

Your calculations is missing natural elemental weakness (fire elememntals and such).

Sorc past lives could be applied to the calculations as well?
And how about 5 cold savants each cursing the foe?

[in4theride75]

If you are talking about the post directly prior to yours, then it is not applicable. That was merely a calculation to determine the location were the BoP sorc capstone is applied in the mathmatical formula. The accurate numbers are earlier in the thread. Page 1.

[Shoemaker]

Exactly. And the same reasons we can't trust the ingame descriptions or the developers words is why we can't trust your math, nor anyone elses.

Can we trust the numbers if we know the exact formula behind it? Perhaps if we had someone impatial to do them, that was an advanced military android that never made mistakes.

You sir are not 100% impartial, nor an advanced military android. Nor is anyone else on the forum. Everyone has a motive, everyone is human, everyone makes mistakes.

The developers told us for years that fireball did 1d6 damage per cl. We know how true that was.

Question everything. Test it yourself. You'll become a much better player.

Actual trials are the ONLY thing we can trust.

Dev words, ingame descriptions.. All too often have these failed us. I think .at least 95% of spell descriptions are either blantantly wrong, or at least inaccurate in some ways.

Tho many of us are working on the DDOwiki to make it the best source of accurate, ingame verified information. So if you want the truth, often verified by many smart players, thats often the best place to head. Ofcourse like anything, it has errors.. But since it's freely editable by all, the errors can always be corrected and verified by multple players, which is the best thing to trust.

Trust the whole of community effort, the wiki, not any one single person and you'll get the closest to the truth.

Well said good sir..