Please Nerf Water Savant

[Illiain]

"Please Nerf Angel of Vengeance,with the SLA on Divine Punishment, is way over powered. Please nerf this. Don't have any idea what the Devs had in mind for the FVS, but they are nukers gone wild. TWO spell points, seriously?"

Divine Punishment is a 5th level spell for Clerics and FvS, at regular sp costs, not a 2sp SLA.

[Arctigis]

I run mainly epics and end game content and about 80% of the mobs make their save against my inherent niac's cold ray.

This. It's useless in Shavarath without WoE + SF etc.

[Crazyfruit]

I run mainly epics and end game content and about 80% of the mobs make their save against my inherent niac's cold ray.

Do you have heighten & a moderately high charisma?

[Milfeulle]

Divine Punishment is a 5th level spell for Clerics and FvS, at regular sp costs, not a 2sp SLA.

just trolling around .

On topic: At end game, I just spam cone of cold and Otiluke's Freezing Sphere plus ice storm, works great in Shavarath...... with my wiz. Grab a bunch of mobs till yellow~red alert and AoE, then grab the next bunch.

[kafrielveddicus]

I think the easy answer to this is for those Permadeath Guilds that think Savants are affecting how their rules were a control on resources, just ban savants, unlike other PRE's the savants are easy to police due to the special graphical effect they have upon becoming one.

The Narc

[Chai]

I think the easy answer to this is for those Permadeath Guilds that think Savants are affecting how their rules were a control on resources, just ban savants, unlike other PRE's the savants are easy to police due to the special graphical effect they have upon becoming one.

The Narc

Yeah, but this would likely cross a line with many people. Are there any other examples we have to date where builds / classes / enhancements were disallowed? People who already built a successful sorc would not take that lightly.

I say play in tougher content at level 6+ This particular SLA is only really powerful at lower level.

[Hendrik]

I think the easy answer to this is for those Permadeath Guilds that think Savants are affecting how their rules were a control on resources, just ban savants, unlike other PRE's the savants are easy to police due to the special graphical effect they have upon becoming one.

The Narc

Most logical solution vs nerfing a whole PrE gamewide because of a small and optional form of gameplay.

[kafrielveddicus]

Yeah, but this would likely cross a line with many people. Are there any other examples we have to date where builds / classes / enhancements were disallowed? People who already built a successful sorc would not take that lightly.

I say play in tougher content at level 6+ This particular SLA is only really powerful at lower level.

Actually in both guilds that are questioning it, there maybe a handful of sorcs with the second stage of the PRE, and they would still be sorcs of the applicable level without the PRE, it would only require a enhancement respec and maybe a feat respec if they didnt want the prerequisite feats required for the savant(which they might keep anyways).

A 11th level sorc, is still an 11th level sorc without the PRE and this would be simply returning the balance they are looking for within their guild and party formation.

The unfortunate thing with having a tight ruleset in Permadeath is that every new thing that is added or revised in the game needs to be reviewed for a paradigm shifting change to the gamestyle seeked. This is not necessary for the guild you are in Chai, but other permadeath guilds with more stringent rulesets must try to have some foresight and if necessary make changes due to hindsight.

The Narc

[mournbladereigns]

this...
Pvp Is Something To Do While You Are In A ****y Mood And Want To Gank N00bs Lolololol. It Deserves Absolutely No Consideration From The Developers.

Fixed

[Thrudh]

This is D&D - casters are supposed to be gods. I dont favor the "balance" of sammich MMO games where the casters are mashing the same three buttons as everyone else, but the effect on the screen looks slightly different.

I agree that casters should be gods... But I do have to semi-agree that TWO (2) SP is a bit low...

[Doxmaster]

OP=Haxorific.
Permadeath = Player vs player
----
We've seen this before; been there, done that and all that rot. Find a new schtick.

[Chai]

Actually in both guilds that are questioning it, there maybe a handful of sorcs with the second stage of the PRE, and they would still be sorcs of the applicable level without the PRE, it would only require a enhancement respec and maybe a feat respec if they didnt want the prerequisite feats required for the savant(which they might keep anyways).

A 11th level sorc, is still an 11th level sorc without the PRE and this would be simply returning the balance they are looking for within their guild and party formation.

The unfortunate thing with having a tight ruleset in Permadeath is that every new thing that is added or revised in the game needs to be reviewed for a paradigm shifting change to the gamestyle seeked. This is not necessary for the guild you are in Chai, but other permadeath guilds with more stringent rulesets must try to have some foresight and if necessary make changes due to hindsight.

The Narc

We still review game mechanic changes and such, and have more of an allowing ruleset, but the original question I had was....

Has there been a precident where a PD guild in DDO made a rule against enhancements or class based abilities? If not I think we are heading into new territory.

The reason I ask this is because there are several instances where we claimed certain things were OP up til now, but just kind of laid back and allowed it.

Examples?

Firewall. A wizard with 2 levels of rogue can solo the entire necro 2 chain more efficiently than an entire melee group with a healer can run it. They still can.

Better loot that can be statically acquired. I would argue that the korthos anger set + goggles is as powerful as sorcs SLA at low level. It allows toons to turn power attack on with barely a penalty - adding 10 points of damage to a two hander which is already doing mid 20s a swing = mid 30s per swing = 100 point crits at level 5. Its not as much overkill as the level 6 ice SLA, but one shotting kobolds is one shotting kobolds, and a melee can do it for free.

Archmage. 1 mana point for hypno. The only mob moving is the one being killed. Pull whatever you want fellas, I got the rest locked down. A level 6 wizard with 575 mana can buff and then cast hypno ~350-400 times, heh. I still use this in gianthold, and it still works.

Half orcs. ~10 damage potential per hit above most other melee, with no apparent penalty built in. Huge str totals.

Divine punishment. Just wait til you guys get a load of this one. Boss fights are now trivialized. Everyone else pike at the door while the FvS stacks DP on the mob and ducks out of harms way. Rinse, repeat. This ones a bit higher level, but if you havent seen it in action yet, when you do, youll see that it makes that 2 point ice SLA look weak. FvS have soloed devil assault on epic with it and blade barriers - no mana pots used.

Blade barrier. Now casts like a normal spell. Mob AI being what it is will run around and take damage from it until it dies. Ive run up a red alert in the vale then used one blade barrier to kill every spider and dog on my tail, heh.

I think a very legit question presents itself. Where do we draw the line on character ability restriction once it starts? Do we end up with a huge book of abilities that cannot be used, due to the fact that the game gets made easier for lower level gaming every update? How far does this rabbithole go?

I see the comments made alot that Turbine is making the lower level game easier and easier, and I dont disagree, however, each time an update comes out with some new ability or heck, theres a new class coming out soon, and its deemed too powerful, do we just put it off limits?

[Crazyfruit]

... Has there been a precident where a PD guild in DDO made a rule against enhancements or class based abilities? If not I think we are heading into new territory ...

A few did for the first version of Radiant Servant.

If I remember right it got its aura at level 6, and the aura was much more powerful than it is today.

[MrWizard]

use your water savant on the giant skellies in sub T....oh, they are immune to cold...

um, oops?

[danotmano1998]

I can see why the Niac's is considered overpowered as far as damage goes...


But it IS a save or nothing spell. Plus it has it's cooldown time.
I hardly consider a spell that does a few hundred points of damage to one enemy at a time with a significant time spread between bursts to need a nerf.

When I'm in a room with a mob, yeah, I can pretty reliably kill ONE non-boss with 2 sp.. And then the rest beat me to death.. *ding*

See what I'm saying?
It's really not a gamebreaker, IMO.

[Raithe]

While I wholeheartedly agree with this statement, you are going about it the wrong way. Instead of nerfing the player abilities, they need to make the game itself harder.

This is hilarious. It makes NO DIFFERENCE, whatsover, if you "make the game harder" by buffing the mobs or nerfing the player characters. It's exactly the same effect. If a water savant who just hit level 6 is doing 95% of the damage in a quest, then updating the game for his solo play would take 5000% more work and achieve exactly the same effect as nerfing him to appropriate levels.

Some of us intentionally limit what our characters can use and how it can be used, to "make the game itself harder." It's the only way to keep things interesting.

That said, I do agree with the sentiment that some amount of self-policing is likely to always be necessary in this game. It's just it would be nice to get a little help from the developers on occasion in this regard. As I have said before in other threads, if I have to filter approximately 80% of the pugs I start or join, I'll stop playing this game, period.

[Narmolanya]

Please don't nerf sorcs. I had one sitting at level 12 for a year and a half because I hated playing casters. I would just use it to farm tapestry shreds and nothing else. When the savants came out I went with air. I readjusted my play style from just dropping firewalls and love it. I have now capped that sorc and plan to TR this week back into a sorc. This is my first capped caster in 4 years of play, in fact it was my first one I ever could stomach taking past level 12-13. I have since rolled a water savant to try it out and I am loving it as well.

In short I am having the most fun in this game nuking everything since when I started playing. Of course that's when the complainers show up and want up everything nerfed because they think it does to much damage.

/not signed

[Chai]

I agree that casters should be gods... But I do have to semi-agree that TWO (2) SP is a bit low...

Its supposed to be free. 2sp was the cost assigned to it to emulate "spell like ability" in am MMO that uses mana as the limiting factor.

[Raithe]

In short I am having the most fun in this game nuking everything since when I started playing. Of course that's when the complainers show up and want up everything nerfed because they think it does to much damage.

I've been playing a sorc since about 2 weeks after launch, and have never felt that she wasn't overpowered.

Just because you and your playstyle are fun for you does not make it fun for everyone.

[Chai]

This is hilarious. It makes NO DIFFERENCE, whatsover, if you "make the game harder" by buffing the mobs or nerfing the player characters. It's exactly the same effect. If a water savant who just hit level 6 is doing 95% of the damage in a quest, then updating the game for his solo play would take 5000% more work and achieve exactly the same effect as nerfing him to appropriate levels.

Incorrect.

As a business decision it makes a HUGE difference. Giving players cool stuff to play with then taking it away is not good for business. Bringing other things in line with those abilities is better, as it gives classes which dont shine as much some much needed attention, and makes players who play them feel they arent getting left behind.

Some of us intentionally limit what our characters can use and how it can be used, to "make the game itself harder." It's the only way to keep things interesting.

And those niche players are not what this MMO is balanced toward. 99.9% of the players do not do this. Realize also that the person making this statement, myself, has played that niche playstyle for pretty much the entirety of the time this game has existed, in more than one guild, on more than one server. Im not some dude looking in from the outside.

That said, I do agree with the sentiment that some amount of self-policing is likely to always be necessary in this game. It's just it would be nice to get a little help from the developers on occasion in this regard. As I have said before in other threads, if I have to filter approximately 80% of the pugs I start or join, I'll stop playing this game, period.

How? By refusing to group with water savants in open play?

The devs arent going to balance the entire game to extreme minority niche player expectations. Alot of people agree on self policing, but what they dont agree on is what to allow and what not to allow. The minute you are satisfied, alot of other people are not.

Those who feel they need more of a challenge can enforce their own rules, but when those rules eliminate entire enhancement lines I have to ask if its really worth it, or if they are playing the correct incarnation of D&D to suit their needs. In either case, limiting yourself is fine. Asking the designers to limit everyone else because your view doesnt agree with theirs is not only wrong, but its also a bad business decision.