AC and hps to tank Horoth?

[Thrudh]

I've been tanking Suulo in Tod on both normal and hard no problem...

What would I need to tank Horoth on normal? on hard?

I can get a 76 AC on my own.... low 80s with a paladin and a bard.

I only have 500 hps base... 580 with rage, ship buffs, and Yugo pots

I don't have madstone boots on this character...

[grodon9999]

http://images.ddoforum.turbine.com/s...32&postcount=5

77/83/91 are the magic numbers for Horoth's melee attacks to only hit on a 20, assuming Exhaustion is used. Lower ACs can still be useful - an AC nine points lower than these figures will make half of all melee attacks miss.

Beware, he can still do a lot of damage (far more than any other raid boss except the Abbot) outside of melee. Don't neglect HP, don't neglect saves, and most importantly, do have some contingency plan for a tank death during Blasphemy, a healer DC/lagspike, or whatever else causes it.

I personally prefer a 0 AC human barbarian with very high healing amp on Elite Horoth (you can heal them with only scrolls if two people use a scroll almost every cooldown), although it can certainly be done in many ways.

Suulo requires 77/82/87 to hit an AC tank only on a 20 (4 higher than VoD as he has Shavarath Greater Heroism here, otherwise he appears to be the same mob except for his HP), and Suulo really can't do much damage at all outside of melee.

I like 700 HP on a toon with enough AC to get missed most of the time, some people do it with less but I'm kinda conservative.

at 87 AC, Meathelmet's healer is usually meleeing Horoth more than healing on hard. On Elite i feel like Rhiana after a night with Chris Brown (for you old folks, think Tina and Ike Turner . . .). Still need that chattering ring . . .

And don't count on paladin aura unless you are the paladin! I'm TRing right now with three Paladins who'll have AC aura and I have a few others in my guild, and I still won't count on it

[Thrudh]

And don't count on paladin aura unless you are the paladin!

And you can't count on bards either! They seem to have disappeared lately from the ToD raids I go on.

[grodon9999]

And you can't count on bards either! They seem to have disappeared lately from the ToD raids I go on.

bards are a lot more plentiful than pallys with aura.

[Hobgoblin]

only thing i see for tanking horoth is the comparativly low hp.

you will be fine, right untill you roll a 1 on a disintrigrate. then you will be knocked down to 40-50 and are danger of getting either killed by meele, or taking a meteor storm to the face.

the ac should be a nice cushion though

hob

[maddmatt70]

I've been tanking Suulo in Tod on both normal and hard no problem...

What would I need to tank Horoth on normal? on hard?

I can get a 76 AC on my own.... low 80s with a paladin and a bard.

I only have 500 hps base... 580 with rage, ship buffs, and Yugo pots

I don't have madstone boots on this character...

There are many ways to look at this. The more people that you have healing the less gaps there will be such that you will be close to full hp the entire time and thus a disintegrate will not be likely to kill you nor will just regular damage. I have tanked Horoth on normal and hard with my 610 hp paladin who has very good healing amp, but no ac. My paladin does have issues though because if the healers get stunned (no lt monk) or he could roll a 1 on a disintegrate and be obliterated. It really depends on the party and a variety of factors and you are almost certainly a better sulu tank then horoth tank.

[Thrudh]

you are almost certainly a better sulu tank then horoth tank.

Yeah, that is what it sounds like... Thanks for all the input guys... I'll stick to Suulo for a while... Maybe after I get madstone boots, a little more AC, and maybe a +4 CON tome, I'll try tanking Horoth.

[Junts]

I've been tanking Suulo in Tod on both normal and hard no problem...

What would I need to tank Horoth on normal? on hard?

I can get a 76 AC on my own.... low 80s with a paladin and a bard.

I only have 500 hps base... 580 with rage, ship buffs, and Yugo pots

I don't have madstone boots on this character...

The theoretical max ac to always be missed (except crits) is 86 on hard and 94 on elite for Horoth. Keep in mind that this is lowered by more than just your ac, like exhaustion and/or the fvs aura (meaning as low as 89 ac will be enough to take only grazes and 20s from Horoth on elite).

HP wise, I'd feel comfortable tanking hard with 560-580 if you have the ac, but below 600 is really iffy for elite. The problem isn't even stuns so much as simply ensuring that between badges and grazes (remember on elite he grazes you on 12-19 for 40-50 a swing) keeping your hp high enough to live through a disintegrate. 700 isnt necessary but it helps, and more hp helps a lot if you swing down below the maxed out number.

I usually tank elite at 627 and I rarely die unless something fairly abnormal happens in quick succession. There's always the chance that any tank is screwed by getting disintegrated during a blasphemy or having blasphemy go off when they're at 1/3 health or the like, but I've lived through blasphemies at half hp before becuase of the ability to block during daze (getting back the dex ac you're losing from the +5, and getting the dr). There's pretty much no tank that's totally safe from death - a disintegrate during power word: stun is about 900 damage, so even barbs might die to that. I also don't have evasion, but I do have enough ac to reliably get missed as much as possible.

I don't have sheild mastery: if you do, you'll probably find it a bit easier overall with that stacking damage removal.


There's no reason besides your ac being low you can't tank horoth on hard. Elite is a long ways off, though: you want 89 with fvs+exhaust or 91 with exhaust for that. Your hp aren't in the best shape but they're adequate if your ac was actually present. As it is, though, you can definitely tank normal.

[Indoran]

I've been tanking Suulo in Tod on both normal and hard no problem...

What would I need to tank Horoth on normal? on hard?

I can get a 76 AC on my own.... low 80s with a paladin and a bard.

I only have 500 hps base... 580 with rage, ship buffs, and Yugo pots

I don't have madstone boots on this character...

and get heal amp 20% at least

[grodon9999]

and get heal amp 20% at least

Oh ****, this is so right, can't believe I forgot it.

have 20% (ring) and 30% (Claw-set) on my guy and it's a huge part in keeping him alive. I would get at least 20% in some way, shape, or form before doing this.

[Sweyn]

A lot of people say 650-700 for horoth, but i'd like at least 800 HP. At least that's what i feel comfortable on my melee and healers. When i was level 18 on my TR barb i had ~720 HP. One run the main tank died and i had to take over, with that many HP i felt as though the healers were having to put a lot more effort into healing me. Once I hit cap before i TR'd into HO, i had ~900 HP, and i felt as comfortable as can be taking horoth.

Last night i ran my healer through ToD, the main tank had ~750 HP, and i felt like his HP was dropping to rapidly and i was throwing too many heals. For me at least i prefer 800+ HP for horoth.

To me AC is not as viable as HP for tanking horoth. He does so much non-melee damage (Disintegrate, meteor swarm, DOTs, etc..) that having even 100 AC will not mitigate too much damage.

[grodon9999]

To me AC is not as viable as HP for tanking horoth. He does so much non-melee damage (Disintegrate, meteor swarm, DOTs, etc..) that having even 100 AC will not mitigate too much damage.

That's not true though, barely getting hit absorbs tons of damage even though you will still need constant heals. But is can be one guy tossing scrolls or radian aura.

700 HP with AC, 800 without it. Some people do it with less but this is what I consider minimum safe levels.

[Junts]

That's not true though, barely getting hit absorbs tons of damage even though you will still need constant heals. But is can be one guy tossing scrolls or radian aura.

700 HP with AC, 800 without it. Some people do it with less but this is what I consider minimum safe levels.

If you need 700 to do it with ac, then your healers are not very good at this.

[grodon9999]

If you need 700 to do it with ac, then your healers are not very good at this.

As you said above . . .

. . . I usually tank elite at 627 and I rarely die unless something fairly abnormal happens in quick succession.

We both roll with great healers but stuff happens. I've only died once on Horoth is is less often than rarely That was when my friend's bard was scroll-healing me as the only healer and he spaced out and accidentally dragged his scrolls off of the tool bar. We give him grief to this day as the only healer who ever let Meathelmet die

As you also said above, "something fairly abnormal happens in quick succession." And this does happen, I've seen 800+ HP fighters go from full HP to 0 in about 1 second when badges tick, meteor swarm bukakee hits, and then they roll 1 on the disintegrate. And this was on NORMAL.

[Junts]

As you said above . . .



We both roll with great healers but stuff happens. I've only died once on Horoth is is less often than rarely That was when my friend's bard was scroll-healing me as the only healer and he spaced out and accidentally dragged his scrolls off of the tool bar. We give him grief to this day as the only healer who ever let Meathelmet die

As you also said above, "something fairly abnormal happens in quick succession." And this does happen, I've seen 800+ HP fighters go from full HP to 0 in about 1 second when badges tick, meteor swarm bukakee hits, and then they roll 1 on the disintegrate. And this was on NORMAL.

The thing is pretty much everyone dies in those situations: That you havent is as much a testament to having been fortunate as it is to having 80 more hit points. Last week, one of my guildies got an 890 pt disintegrate during a power word stun: find me a build who lives through that!

The thing is, dying doesn't matter anymore - it takes me about 12 seconds to get Horoth back (cast death ward, cast elec resistance, activate unyielding sov, reactivate stance, intimidate). That even restores you to the top of the threat list, and you can easily block while waiting for refreshers of ac buffs before you go back to swinging. Even the hp he regains isn't an issue - Suulo has so many more hp and better overall defenses that he's a much bigger worry than another 12% hp on Horoth, and it might lengthen the raid by maybe 20 seconds if you happen to die.

Since you -always- can die, its imprudent to plan as though it won't happen. That I die once every 3 or 4 runs has more to do with the fact that we don't insist on ideal party makeups than any other variance - I'd say theres probably not a light monk in more than 1/4 of my tower runs, and they're frequently done with only 2 people who can heal in total, and one of those being the person who's job it is to sing songs as well.

I've seen the way you build your elite towers - you don't have any business dying, and you wouldn't be dying in groups like that with 650 hp either.

[maddmatt70]

That's not true though, barely getting hit absorbs tons of damage even though you will still need constant heals. But is can be one guy tossing scrolls or radian aura.

700 HP with AC, 800 without it. Some people do it with less but this is what I consider minimum safe levels.

Yeah your ac is a little low. You said mid to high 80s so you probably need more of a cushion.

[Junts]

Yeah your ac is a little low. You said mid to high 80s so you probably need more of a cushion.

In runs where I happen to not have ship buffs for some reason, I tank at 88 - and I still don't feel like I'm missing 100 hit points or something.

Its a little harder, but it's not that big a difference.

Junk, don't you insist on always having light monks in your elite runs, too? I can't imagine why you're that worried about it in that case.

[Sweyn]

That's not true though, barely getting hit absorbs tons of damage even though you will still need constant heals. But is can be one guy tossing scrolls or radian aura.

700 HP with AC, 800 without it. Some people do it with less but this is what I consider minimum safe levels.

If you can hold aggro on an AC tank with a bunch of epic claw set, eSoS weilding melee, then Kudos to you. Considering that's usually the group i run with, having an AC tank is just a PITA. But if it works for you go for it.

[Junts]

If you can hold aggro on an AC tank with a bunch of epic claw set, eSoS weilding melee, then Kudos to you. Considering that's usually the group i run with, having an AC tank is just a PITA. But if it works for you go for it.

It isn't that hard to do if you prepare properly, and the window where you even have to worry about 'holding' aggro is pretty short - once everyone else goes to fight Suulomades, you could spend half ytour time blocking if you wanted and you'd have no chance of losing aggro by the time they get back.

Further, most people are smart enough to save smites/haste boosts/etc until Suulomades and don't burn them on the innitial horoth whacking, so its easier to hold aggro there than it would seem.

If you're really stressed about it, you can always grab initial aggro in a DPS mode, then swap away when the party leaves. When we do hard or elite speed runs, I tank with my epic sos+righteousness when I have all the healers available, then swap to shield when everyone else is on Suulo so I can be healed by a single person easily.

Aggro issues are bigger if you tank vod regularly, since he resets aggro so frequently. Vod is way easier, thoguh, with a lower ac threshold, so its easier to make other gear swaps that increase your dps and consequently your threat, like power attack, twfing, etc.

When you're packing +235% threat and 16% doublestrike with a silver chaosblade, its actually not nearly as hard to hold aggro as it might initially seem

[grodon9999]

If you can hold aggro on an AC tank with a bunch of epic claw set, eSoS weilding melee, then Kudos to you. Considering that's usually the group i run with, having an AC tank is just a PITA. But if it works for you go for it.

My DDO the guys from this picture: http://imageshack.us/f/94/run1i.jpg/ At least two of them were using ESoSs with Devils Ruin crystals and I think everyone had the Claw set.

This was an Elite Run though I was on Sulu. We typically use my fighter on Sulu on Elite because he's got the best threat to indestructible ratio of anyone in the guild. 5 second head-start and everyone goes ape, the faster we get Sulu killed the less likely we are to see anything strang happen with the Horoth team.