AC and hps to tank Horoth?

[grodon9999]

Which is to say, its a raid people actually are more likely to need to run a specific toon for as opposed to anything that's off timer, because they're a lot more likely to need a specific ring than they are a specific base item.

That makes flexible composition more important, not less: I don't want to run my caster in tod elites because he has no reason to run it, but running random epic raids with him is the same as all my other toons because he's just hunting sos shards or red scales or whatever.

Making sure my monk actually gets to run tod on timer is important: she still needs a fb ring. And ditto that for the others, with different rings (a ravager for jaerlach, shintao for aryenne and falstian).

Having to run a toon you already have the items you want for (especially likely for extra casters and healers, since those characters tend to not need as specific a set of rings, or to want items that are competed for less than the ravager/shintao combo) is a big burden. Most players are likely to have their healers already equipped and still have more melees who need melee rings. Gotta get as many of those people in as you can.

My fighter, who is by far my most valuable toon for this raid, needs ABSOLUTELY NOTHING from tower. He has every ring he could possibly want and luckily got them kind of early. I still run it twice a week (though i'm taking two weeks off to TR my main) because my friends need rings, trophies, and chances of not getting +4 tomes.

I don't consider getting my friends/guildies equipped to be a burden, neither do the rest of the people I run with.

[LeLoric]

My fighter, who is by far my most valuable toon for this raid, needs ABSOLUTELY NOTHING from tower. He has every ring he could possibly want and luckily got them kind of early. I still run it twice a week (though i'm taking two weeks off to TR my main) because my friends need rings, trophies, and chances of not getting +4 tomes.

I don't consider getting my friends/guildies equipped to be a burden, neither do the rest of the people I run with.

It's not necessarily a burden but it's better if you can also run a raid with a character you have that needs an item. That's what more flexible parties allow.

[grodon9999]

It's not necessarily a burden but it's better if you can also run a raid with a character you have that needs an item. That's what more flexible parties allow.

burden wasn't a word I used.

+4 Tomes drop, I've gotten 4 from tower. Sure the drop rate blows but it's the only place I've gotten any. Large Shroud ingredients drop in the Sulu chest all the time. Who doesn't need those?

[Junts]

burden wasn't a word I used.

+4 Tomes drop, I've gotten 4 from tower. Sure the drop rate blows but it's the only place I've gotten any. Large Shroud ingredients drop in the Sulu chest all the time. Who doesn't need those?

Right, but imagine for a moment you dont have the time to timer every character. I'm sure some of your guildies are in that situation.

If they only have time to keep 2 of their 5 chars on timer in a week, don't they kind of want it to be the characters who still need rings?

Allowing those people flexibility is key.

[Emili]

Medal of Cruel, Pain Badge of Death, Honor of Fools

Those are the case... usually when a tank goes down it's due the healer is not paying attention, is distracted or temporarily detained. (lagged or stunned)...

I mention those above because while 30-50 per tick every three seconds each, that winged rat B@stard likes to stack/stagger them so they become either 60-100 plus 30-50 every two seconds or 90-150 every three to five on the average.

Pure case: Matt's AC toon Grumblegut is one of the best I seen for tanking him ... and reasons being I believe is the combination he has. Now Am pretty sure a high AC pally with an evasive option would also be a good choice too. I think for an AC based tank on him that decent saves seem to poise a lot of deflection of damages too...

Here's what I've seen from my perspective and in observing others:

While his melee attacks come in at 90 to 115 on elite he is a slow melee in number of attempts Horoth is more akin a mean meleeing caster mob as he tends to queue up spells flail spell spell flail spell flail in such order. The Disintegrate save is bout 40 which am not quite sure I do know 42 saved me a few times while DBF is mid 30s... Keeping the brunt of the high spikes down seem key at lower 600hp realms and of course the higher the buffer above 600 the better.

[Thrudh]

Right, but imagine for a moment you dont have the time to timer every character. I'm sure some of your guildies are in that situation.

If they only have time to keep 2 of their 5 chars on timer in a week, don't they kind of want it to be the characters who still need rings?

Exactly. Very few people play as much as you do Grodon...

I do 2 ToDs a week... Occasionally, I'll bring in my healer who doesn't need a ring, but I'm not going to bring him in every single run, and NEVER give my other characters any chances.

[Emili]

My fighter, who is by far my most valuable toon for this raid, needs ABSOLUTELY NOTHING from tower. He has every ring he could possibly want and luckily got them kind of early. I still run it twice a week (though i'm taking two weeks off to TR my main) because my friends need rings, trophies, and chances of not getting +4 tomes.

I don't consider getting my friends/guildies equipped to be a burden, neither do the rest of the people I run with.

While I'll bring my melee there ... they can very well get +4 tomes from epics as I seen just as many pop from epic raids. The last +4 I seen was Wis tome - my pally pulled it - although she could have used it I looked at the group there and gave it up. Often I will play a swing character just to play the game but all the same is nice when you're getting multiple chances of rewards you might be able - and still can - use.

[grodon9999]

Right, but imagine for a moment you dont have the time to timer every character. I'm sure some of your guildies are in that situation.

If they only have time to keep 2 of their 5 chars on timer in a week, don't they kind of want it to be the characters who still need rings?

Allowing those people flexibility is key.

I myself don't timer all my characters, I have 4 capped toons and typically run tower 6 times a week. But my most valuable guy just happens to be the one who doesn't need anything (120 runs in life one . . . Junk still couldn't get a friggin Shintao ring . . . sigh . . .) and he gets run almost every time he's needed.

We just don't have this as an issue for whatever reason, nobody in the group I run with minds switching out toons if it makes things easier for everyone. We also have people raising toons specifically to help others out (there are 5 Meathelmet clones last time I checked) for ToD and other raids/quests. it's probably because we usually do three runs in a row so if you want to bring something we'll find some way to squeeze it in in that night.

[maddmatt70]

but those are epic raids, not Elite Tower

The more I play post update 9 the more I disagree. FVS do the most dps in DDO with their darn divine punishment. You can easily replace all the melee in an elite tower with spell casters. Only thing is you can not have all 12 characters in the raid be all melee because they need some sort of healing and it is inefficient for all 12 melee to heal themselves not to mention difficult. That players have so much flexibility is bad and good. DDO is becoming far too individualistic for my taste. I like groups with defined roles and find that fun, but on the other hand it is nice to not have to wait for the perfect group or whatever and just play. Spellcasters are so OP right now in so many ways.

[grodon9999]

The more I play post update 9 the more I disagree. FVS do the most dps in DDO with their darn divine punishment. You can easily replace all the melee in an elite tower with spell casters. Only thing is you can not have all 12 characters in the raid be all melee because they need some sort of healing and it is inefficient for all 12 melee to heal themselves not to mention difficult. That players have so much flexibility is bad and good. DDO is becoming far too individualistic for my taste. I like groups with defined roles and find that fun, but on the other hand it is nice to not have to wait for the perfect group or whatever and just play. Spellcasters are so OP right now in so many ways.

I'd LOVE to try a 12 melee ToD, I'm absolutely sure we could do it and it'd be a fun change of pace though to be honest i don't think i'd be than hard.

My joke was referring to Elite ToD (hell, hard even) being harder than the epic raids. I've taken some real cross-eyed groups into eChrono that did very well, EDQ is an absolute joke now, and Dragon's easier than Chrono.

But yeah . . . and it's a topic for another conversation . . . I've been noticing that as well regarding the individualistic approach that's come to this game lately. I'm still not sure if it's good or bad as though I get where you're coming from it's kinda fun to play those toons. What is nice is that different toons can play different roles just fine, that flexibility I like.

[grodon9999]

Spellcasters are so OP right now in so many ways.

We're bordering going off on a tangent . . . oh what the heck . . .

I think casters are APPROPRIATELY powered right now in regards to the damage output they can do. I'm an old-school D&Der and the pre-U9 method of the caster's just being to mass-hold mobs for me to heavy-pick was just way more stupid that what we have now. More changes need to be made so melees can be more than just flavor builds, hopefully we'll see them sooner rather than later.

[MrWizard]

I've been tanking Suulo in Tod on both normal and hard no problem...

What would I need to tank Horoth on normal? on hard?

I can get a 76 AC on my own.... low 80s with a paladin and a bard.

I only have 500 hps base... 580 with rage, ship buffs, and Yugo pots

I don't have madstone boots on this character...

lowest hit points I ever tanked on normal/horoth was 497. Luckily I did not roll a 1 on disintegrate. Nice to have 600+, less than that and just pray no one is rolled or the healer is keeping you topped off.

This is with an ac tank with high dr though. A no ac tank with less DR I would assume you would be taking 80+ damage every second or two and need a lot more HP to stay above 520 hit points.

76 AC on your own is more than enough. Done it 72 self buffed in a no caster/bard/pally run once on normal. A bit rougher.

Currently tank him with about 630+ hit points.

[MrWizard]

If you can hold aggro on an AC tank with a bunch of epic claw set, eSoS weilding melee, then Kudos to you. Considering that's usually the group i run with, having an AC tank is just a PITA. But if it works for you go for it.

The last few times I ran tod there were people who were wearing their claw sets and epicly geared. I tanked using sword/board/stalwart which greatly increases your threat.
I would wait until he started to turn the first time and then hit intim.
On the very rare occasion he would start to turn I would hit intim again.

the new intim works great. Other than the ToD stalwart set, I have no threat gear and no epic stuff, just greensteel. I have never lost the aggro of horoth yet.

I think they did the numbers and I have to say I think they got it right.

[Emili]

More changes need to be made so melees can be more than just flavor builds, hopefully we'll see them sooner rather than later.

Melee tend to be flavour toons due to little spacings for utility gain outside splash, PrE and gear. This is why caster based characters survive from change to change so well... spell switch, enhancement switch a few more items in gear and off and running. Those non-sporting mana scoped in other directions good examples... batman, bowbarians, crit raged barb, exploiter, pure kensie, ravager, now blitz... minor changes in multiple areas tend affect those borrowing from all those areas more, ultimately they age down into medium levels if not off the board after a couple years. Now for example take something most people build for like the skill umd ... the most immportant aspect of it entirely is allows you to 'cast spells.' The fact many melee pursue such when can is indicative of the true utility and self-sufficiency spells provide.

I cannot help but wish turbine would give my melee their tactics back and their weapons of specialty but make them tweakable to use producing effectiveness the way they were ... not pre-u9 but pre-Orchard.

[Xeraphim]

Came here for some numbers to throw on an LFM for a ToD Hard, was wondering what I had to build for a ToD Elite... nothing very helpful. I do see a lot of these folks talking about how much they play though.

What AC NUMBERS do we have to aim for to do a ToD Hard, Elite?

If it's not a solid number, I and other readers will just ignore your post and wonder why your green bar is so big for being no help at all.

I did get an aim for Normal elsewhere, and this thread makes mention of the same range, although without referencing the actual range.

[aristarchus1000]

Came here for some numbers to throw on an LFM for a ToD Hard, was wondering what I had to build for a ToD Elite... nothing very helpful. I do see a lot of these folks talking about how much they play though.

What AC NUMBERS do we have to aim for to do a ToD Hard, Elite?

If it's not a solid number, I and other readers will just ignore your post and wonder why your green bar is so big for being no help at all.

I did get an aim for Normal elsewhere, and this thread makes mention of the same range, although without referencing the actual range.

Did you see reply #2?
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...47&postcount=2

[Faent]

I'd LOVE to try a 12 melee ToD, I'm absolutely sure we could do it and it'd be a fun change of pace though to be honest i don't think i'd be than hard.

See here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=310534

[grodon9999]

See here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=310534

The pally I'm growing MIGHT be able to self-hjeal through hard/elite. That's when the fun starts