Feedback: Cleric 101 (Work in Progress)

[Habreno]

To New Clerics:

1) Leaving people dead is sometimes better for the party. While I wouldn't recommend NOT healing anyone, that Monk with 120% healing amp that is eating the mobs like an appatizer is probably worth keeping alive if he's got a decent amount of hitpoints, over, say, the 60 HP Warforged Wizard (who can repair themselves) or the other healer (who can heal themselves)

[DarkSpectre]

Fordy Two,

I have not appreciated your character build posts because they usually detract from the very class that you advise building. That said, in three sentences, let me say the following:

A) My favorite character to play is the Human healing Cleric, which is why I only put points into Wisdom (18), Charisma (16), and Constitution (14) at creation.

B) People who do not like playing healing Clerics always gimp their character with non-class Skills, statistics, Enhancements, and Feats. This is why they do not put points into the aforementioned statistics nor into the Diplomacy and Heal Skills (which are class Feats for the Cleric), nor build on the spells, Feats, and Enhancements that lend directly to healing the party and helping to carry them through quests and raids.

Healing Clerics are absolutely required for parties to be successful in nearly every single quest in this game, Fordy Two. Please do not provide yet another "official build guide" that caters to the DPS-worshippers and the zergers in this Community, who are the minority. To benefit new players, for example, speak to the class they are interested in and not to the strategies that seldom work in most parts of the game. If you are going to provide a "solo quest guide" for newbies or "how to zerg with a Cleric," then please differentiate clearly for the reader. The healing Cleric should not be watered-down, regardless of the harsh words used against this vital contributor to any party.

Thank you.


Snootch

There is this interesting guide called "Cleric The Path to Enlightenment"

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...uide+clericing

I am curious where your definition of playing a Cleric falls on this...

[Kmnh]

Yes, but there's another key fact: Due to the design of DDO, a low level Cleric cannot be an offensive caster, not effectively. Before about level 10, there just aren't enough reasonable offensive spells for that to be a workable role.

Maybe that'll change someday with new spells or a prestige specialty for offensive casting. But currently, the only way a lowbie Cleric can be helpful in between healing (or if nobody else is hurting the monsters) is to use a weapon.

Yup, I said the same thing at an earlier post.

Your only source of offensive casting before level 10 is to do healing bursts on the undead. It is easy to get from 6 to 10 through the undead quests, though.

I think a melee-focused cleric is a lot easier to play than a caster one, especially at the early game. The problem is that you can't expect new players to know what they are doing, so we get a bunch of terrible clerics who can't melee well enough and can't heal quickly enough.

One thing missing from the guide is a priorities breakdown. something like:

1) heal yourself. dead clerics are a sad thing.

2) Heal the main tank who is in immediate danger. Don't let that guy that's leading ahead and keeping mobs under control die.

3) Heal the caster who's keeping crowd control up and is in danger. Spells disappear when he dies, and then all those mobs break loose. At endgame, keeping the caster up is more important than keeping the tank, except for a few raids.

4) Heal other people who are close to dying.

5) remove crippling debuffs, like massive level drain or stat damage.

5) Melee / cast offensively. If the party's hp bars are looking good, commanding that troll makes sure they stay there.

7) rebuff important short-term stuff Boosting the rogue's reflex save before the trap is always nice.

8) top people off. you can do this with your aura/bursts between fights.

[sirgog]

Your comments give the opposite impression.


Yes, which indicates that your advice is counterproductive, and that moving a few points from int/cha into str would be a good idea.


The claim that melee clerics require 32 point builds is hilariously false.


That's not even close to the reality.

I honestly think you are trolling here. I'll respond in case I'm wrong.

How do you expect a level 9 cleric to hit a 30 AC mob reliably with no twink gear and none of the resources to buy the hundreds of potions veterans carry?

Let's break it down.

14 Str, +2 Str item (all they are likely to have): +3. Goes to +5 if Divine Power active.
Base attack bonus: +6 if Divine Power inactive, +9 when active
Weapon enhancement: +4 (by 9, they've probably found a +4 weapon of nothing or a +3 elemental)
Divine Favor: +2
Haste: +1

That's +15 when Divine Power falls off, or +20 when it is up. They need a 15 to hit a typical mob in an at-level elite quest when not moving, or 10 when Divine Power is up. And that's with a proficient weapon, all of which are awful.


But don't take my word for it. Ask new players what their experiences with clerics that melee are. Battleclerics have an awful reputation among new players precisely because they see ten awful ones for every solid one.


On the other hand, they can dominate non-undead quests with Soundburst and undead ones with Radiant Burst. Then, once they have 32 point builds and twink gear, they can try a melee-oriented build, and use the Planar Gird they can trade for by then, as well as Heroism potions at low level, so they can actually contribute in that role from level 1.

The last thing the game needs is more newbies playing melee clerics, giving other Str-based divines a bad name.

[Angelus_dead]

I honestly think you are trolling here.

No, that's you.

They need a 15 to hit a typical mob in an at-level elite quest when not moving, or 10 when Divine Power is up.

That "at-level elite quest" thing is probably the core of your mistake. What exactly do you mean by that?

Maybe you mean a level 6+3 = 9, or maybe even 9+3 = 12. But whichever it is, it's a mistake to use that as the basis for judging the effectiveness of the character.

But don't take my word for it. Ask new players what their experiences with clerics that melee are. Battleclerics have an awful reputation among new players precisely because they see ten awful ones for every solid one.

I have asked, which is why I know what I'm talking about. But of course, nobody here was talking about Battleclerics until you just then; they're just talking about Clerics who aren't physical wimps.

Having 12 or 14 strength doesn't make someone a "Battlecleric".

[Angelus_dead]

One thing missing from the guide is a priorities breakdown. something like:

1) heal yourself. dead clerics are a sad thing.

You skipped over the highest priority list:
Join a group that makes sense. Don't assume that you need to get into a full party and heal them as your function, despite how some other games may use that system.

Lots of newbie parties have trouble and often blame the Cleric, regardless of whose fault it was. Newbie players are maybe used to regenerating mana from other games, or assume an Eternal Cure Minor wand is stronger than it is, and figure that healing output they got once can be continued as long as needed.

If a newb Cleric tries to heal a newb group through whatever they run into, he will fail. The mistake was made not while running the dungeon, but while choosing it.

[MeliCat]

I really appreciate that both A_D and sirgog are trying to aim for the best for the new player - please though no need to rip up at one another if you don't agree exactly what is best... please agree to disagree because I very much appreciate both of your posts.

I think it would be a shame for a new player to gimp wisdom - because hearts are expensive and when you've been told when you *finally* get to end game with all the care and attention that you've lavished on your char that you've gimped it from the outset with your stats. Therefore set it at 18.

Similarly for a new player con is always going to be good to be a little higher perhaps than longer term players may choose... therefore 14 is good.

Cha for positive bursts and a little Str becuase being burdened is a pain.

And A_D is right... the cleric is probably going to swing a mace or whatever because that's what their character seems to get on Korthos so that's what you do with a shield in the other hand... It gives the non-twink cleric something to do... but no one actually expects the cleric to actually kill anything more than boxes so that's ok.. So it really doesn't matter what their strength is. It's not a big deal but swinging at stuff is more fun that not.

The real bonus for baby clerics is Bullstrength - this is the buff everyone loves when they are totally gearless and the one that they first understand. And then afterwards it's things like removing curses and poison neut and just learning how to target and heal. And then you learn about resists (bah the easy button ship shrines!).

Please don't in any way gimp end gear stats for new players though - even though they may not intially appreciate what they really mean but are just following along on a guide.

[markymarksta]

==Template: Classic Healing Cleric==

This template provides a path to creating a classic cleric – one that specializes in crowd control and healing. Know that while the classic-healing-cleric can be played solo, this build performs best with hirelings, or with fellow DDO players.

__________________________________________________ ______________________________________________

I would change the words slightly to suggest what is possible with a cleric changes over time as they level up;

This template provides a path to creating a classic cleric - one that specialises in crowd control and (later) nuking, but always healing.

or to be more general;

This template provides a path to creating a classic cleric - one that specialises in healing and offensive casting.

The reason is that crowd control is not always an option at later levels of the game when so many enemies are immune or have high saves against enchanment based spells (Command, Hold person, Greater Command). Yet very useful in early and mid stages of the game. Unless by crowd control you also mean the use of offensive spells like BB's then ignore the suggestion.

Also I concur with many posts;
Lose Mental toughness and Extend for Empower and Spell Penetration

The build you provided would have been great when the level cap was 16 and extend was necessary for BB's Pre U10. Alas the game has changed

[furbyoats]

Fordy Two,

I have not appreciated your character build posts because they usually detract from the very class that you advise building. That said, in three sentences, let me say the following:

A) My favorite character to play is the Human healing Cleric, which is why I only put points into Wisdom (18), Charisma (16), and Constitution (14) at creation.

B) People who do not like playing healing Clerics always gimp their character with non-class Skills, statistics, Enhancements, and Feats. This is why they do not put points into the aforementioned statistics nor into the Diplomacy and Heal Skills (which are class Feats for the Cleric), nor build on the spells, Feats, and Enhancements that lend directly to healing the party and helping to carry them through quests and raids.

Healing Clerics are absolutely required for parties to be successful in nearly every single quest in this game, Fordy Two. Please do not provide yet another "official build guide" that caters to the DPS-worshippers and the zergers in this Community, who are the minority. To benefit new players, for example, speak to the class they are interested in and not to the strategies that seldom work in most parts of the game. If you are going to provide a "solo quest guide" for newbies or "how to zerg with a Cleric," then please differentiate clearly for the reader. The healing Cleric should not be watered-down, regardless of the harsh words used against this vital contributor to any party.

Thank you.


Snootch

Alright Snootch, since you are claiming to know more about what a cleric can and cannot do...could you please, in detail (by detail i mean mathematically [this game is based on math, not idealism]) explain why your stat allocation is better than the OP?

secondly could you please, in detail (give frequently occurring scenarios) explain why diplomacy and heal should be taken over concentration and balance? namely the heal skill. I don't care that it is a class skill, that means nothing. WHAT EFFECT DOES THE HEAL SKILL HAVE THAT TRUMPS CONCENTRATION OR BALANCE.

You yourself claim that you should be the best at the role you play. So I am giving you a chance to prove by the numbers, how your build is superior and how the OP's setup falls devastatingly behind.

Enough long winded rhetoric. It's now time for you to prove your beliefs if you wish to constantly troll the community and condescend other players.

If you want to run in role-play parties, then do it. But stop trolling the forums and trying to bait people over philosophical differences.

[SaneDitto]

I will not call myself an authority on the minutiae of stat and point distribution, so I'll look at style.

Before looking from the perspective of healing, look from the perspective of damage mitigation. Big mean ogre? Command it. Kobold Shaman ripping a new one in your party? Trip and kill it quickly. Swarm of kobolds? Soundburst. Pack of ogres/trolls? Greater Command or Holy Smite (and the sneak attackers will like you). Giants? Cometfall. Undead? Cometfall, Turn, and/or Radiant Burst. The spell points you spend on these spells may be less than the spell points and/or resources spent patching the party up after battles (yes, turns used for Radiant Servant abilities are a resource; they recharge, but you can run out if you are too enthusiastic with the bursts, turns, and auras).


In short, "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure".

[SirValentine]

Yes, but there's another key fact: Due to the design of DDO, a low level Cleric cannot be an offensive caster, not effectively. Before about level 10, there just aren't enough reasonable offensive spells for that to be a workable role.

Maybe that'll change someday with new spells or a prestige specialty for offensive casting. But currently, the only way a lowbie Cleric can be helpful in between healing (or if nobody else is hurting the monsters) is to use a weapon.

Wow. Sorry, simply not true. There's plenty of offensive casting for a Cleric to do at low level. How about any of:

Command
Cause Fear
Hold Person
Sound Burst

Those all by Cleric level 3.

These spells are awesome, and, with Heighten later, can continue to be used up to and at cap, in Epics, etc..

Now, if you're saying a Cleric can't be an effective NUKER at low levels, then maybe I'd agree with you. Swinging a mace is more efficient at low levels than casting Nimbus of Light or Inflict Wounds. That remains true up until you get Divine Punishment and Blade Barrier, I'd think.

[katz]

in regards to the ... discussion... that went back and forth about a newbie having trouble splitting their focus between heals and melee... for me at least this was absolutely true. on my FIRST EVER divine, at first i DID have trouble... if i tried fighting i would get absorbed into the action and not notice a life bar dropping fast. at first it was easier for me to stand back and watch life bars... as boring as that was, i still had my own personal pride for how much i returned to each bar with each cast as a heal-specced divine. as i became more experienced it became easier and easier and now... at 20th, i'm still heal specced, but unless it's Harry or Sully or something i throw a divine power and wade right in alongside the big boys and have my fun too.

note: this build is a dual-scimitar-wielding high charisma low wisdom rogue-splashed heal specced favored soul who, despite all that, has (with gear swaps) a search DC in the 50s and a DD DC in the low 60s if you factor in +5 picks. and no one has told me i'm a poor healer or a bad person. i would not recommend my build for beginners, tho. (i know, i know, i said it was my first divine.. well, i had to LR myself, ok? )

[Dendrix]

I would not spend any points on the Diplomacy skill at all on any character ever.

Balance and Jump are far more useful in 99% of the quests in the game.

[Schmoe]

One thing that I think is incredibly helpful for a newbie guide to clerics is a discussion of scrolls and wands, and how they can be used to supplement healing. The guide should mention that scrolls and wands can be purchased at vendors (and some can be had through collectible turn-ins). It should also mention which scrolls and wands are the most useful and which enhancements can greatly improve the effectiveness of scrolls and wands. Finally, the guide should explain how using scrolls and wands alongside spell-casting will be a huge benefit in stretching a cleric's Spell Points from shrine to shrine.

Obviously, a newbie cleric won't be able to afford giant stacks of scrolls or an arsenal of wands, but this discussion is important for introducing the idea that a cleric doesn't have to rely on Spell Points alone to get the job done.

[Ralmeth]

I have some suggestions as well:

Stats:
Lower starting wisdom to 16 and increase strength to 14. This way you can still swing a weapon around and handle yourself, especially at lower levels.

Feats:
Swap Extend and Empower Healing. Extended buffs are helpful at 1st level and will let a new player learn to heal without empower healing turned on. Then at 3rd level the player will be given the option of maximizing healing for big fights, or leaving it off when not so critical.

Skills:
Balance is VERY helpful at low levels, in fact IMHO it is more needed than at higher levels (when you can get items to boost your balance skill). Instead of taking tumble or jump, those points should go to balance. At higher levels points can be put into jump and a couple into tumble.

[nat_1]

We can debate the placement of starting ability points until we get Druids and not reach a consensus. Can we step back from what is "best" for the moment and look at what larger ideas might be useful for a 101 discussion?

"A Cleric can, perhaps more than any other class, contribute to multiple party needs. This type of multi-tasking, for example healing the party and attacking with a weapon, requires keeping track of multiple moving targets and the health of each of those targets."

Bland, I know, but agreeable? Not telling new players to play a certain way, but warning them of the challenges?

[Iwinbyrollup]

I think the most important thing to add would be some spell advice. Mainly, focusing on CC (one of the stated goals of the build) and buffing. Something like this:

Preventing damage costs less SP than healing damage. There are two ways to prevent damage for this build: buffs and crowd control spells. Don't neglect them! Command is a great level 1 spell that works particularly well against melee enemies while Soundburst is a great level 2 spell that will hit multiple targets at once so is great for groups of enemies and spell-casting enemies.

-----

In terms of the recent discussion regarding strength or not:

Low levels do not favor offensive casting on clerics, but they do favor CC, which is what the build states it's aiming for along with healing. Command is a fantastic spell that a cleric will have access to at level 1 (probably the best level 1 CC spell in the game; the only other ones that come close are Charm Person, which has its own disadvantages, and Otto's, which is touch-range); Soundburst is a fantastic spell that a cleric will have access to at level 3.

The build described in the first post isn't a solo build and I don't think any of the guides so far have been aimed at solo builds. Having strength to melee is just not necessary in a group unless you're on a melee character, which this guide isn't. You sure won't top the kill count and if you're the kind of person that really wants to, cleric probably isn't for you to begin with. But coming upon a huge ogre, and then having that ogre sit down while the rest of the group takes no damage killing it? When you're a new player, you almost certainly will feel like a god. It doesn't matter if you did no melee damage whatsoever. You killed that enemy. Command and Soundburst are a LOT of fun. And, to make matters better, a new player on a cleric who uses these spells will likely stand out as a better player than most who don't use the spells.

There were some earlier comments about not needing max Wisdom on a caster cleric as much as Arcanes need max in their primary casting ability. I cannot disagree more. Clerics who want to offensive cast need it MORE than Arcanes because in the game right now there are less opportunities to boost DCs on a pure Cleric than there are to boost DCs on a pure Wizard. If a Wizard wants max Int, an offensive caster or CC-focused Cleric should as well.

[FordyTwo]

Thanks for all the feedback everyone!

I've updated the template and added a snippet from the first portion of the guide titled, "Every New Cleric Should Know". Additionally, we've included some spell advice and tips throughout the guide in lieu of potentially overwhelming new players with too much upfront information.

[katz]

• You can target yourself by pressing the F1 key and the rest of your current party by pressing F2-F6. It's also possible to click on party members' names, found on the left-side listing of your display.

and don't forget that later when ya hit the raids, F7-F12 hits the other half of the party

[dkyle]

• STR … 12
• DEX … 8
• CON … 14
• INT … 9
• WIS … 18
• CHA … 10

This is 29 points. I'm guessing the 9 INT is a typo.

Nightshield is an active spell that can immediately defend against Magic Missile attacks – but lasts for five minutes.

Nightshield lasts for 5 minutes... if you're fifth level with no Extend. It's one minute per level.

• Toggle – Many spells and feats come in this flavor. Think of toggles like a light switch: you can flip it on or off! A toggle always works this way, and in the case of metamagic feats (toggles!) using one will only increase the spell point (SP) cost of other spells – but in no way costs spell points itself to activate.

Feats, sure, but Spells? I can't think of any spells that are toggles. They're either instant, or have a duration. A few are permanent until shrining. But none that you just turn on and off. Even the Radiant Aura is cast for a duration at a time, not toggled.

When playing a character with 20 levels of cleric – like the above template – there's plenty of room for customization. If you're interested in having some spellcasting capability but want deeper access to melee combat, consider creating a level 1 fighter, and then taking 19 levels of cleric. If you decide to tweak the classic healer template in this way, make sure to read some of our Fighter 101 guide for tips on important fighter Ability Scores, and more!

I have to question including this on a newbie guide. Seems like it would more confuse than help. It takes more than just a level of Fighter to turn this build into a viable melee. And if you're going to splash, might as well do two levels of Fighter.

Melee+Offensive Spellcasting is not an easy combination.