Feedback: Cleric 101 (Work in Progress)

[redoubt]

1. Learning to heal is only the start (metamagic management and learning to not over heal so as to conserve spell points is part of that.)

2. Learn all the other things you can do too: clerics have some great Crowd Control and offensive damage spells, you can even melee as you start out. Run with a more experienced cleric/FvS (yes two in the group) occasionally while you level, use this time to experiment and learn the non-healing stuff.

[Stormslayer]

My advice to new clerics is:
1.Learn to utilize mana from day one. Wands and Scrolls are your bestfriend.If there is a wand or scroll for it and its not for healing or crowd control utilize them such as remove curse,remove poison,remove disease, restoration and greater restoration scrolls,heal scrolls,ect..It saves on mana.
2.Deathward mass is a must when u get to that level. It saves on using mana for stat damage and negative levels.
3.Unless it specifically asks for a battle cleric be prepared to heal. If you are a true battle cleric you need to let the party leader know before the quest.It saves on a lot of ranting from dead party members and getting blacklisted.
4.Con is not an option.I recommend atleast a 14 con to start with.
5.Have fun with you toon. Once you get the hang of it healing will come natural. It is one of the hardest classes to master but it can also be the funniest to play as well

[bleedscarlet]

It's hard to say this without sounding insanely narcissistic, but I think I have one of the best clerics on Khyber. I've solo healed elite shroud, hard VOD, and normal hound (although the hound isn't really amazing if you have a good party).

I focus on healing, but my offensive casting and negative spells are my favorite. As it says in my bio:

Healing is my profession, but killing is a hobby i take very seriously.

You can look him up, Avination, and I'll put my build up here when I have time (probably later tonight if possible). There's nothing too fancy about it, except that I did avoid Lorrik's at all costs which makes me happy.

I could probably be a little better at healing if i went for the set but the thought of farming SOS wearies me.

[DeafeningWhisper]

The hardest thing you will need to learn is when to let someone die, basically combat triage: "who needs to be ready and able so the quest can be completed?".

More then once, specially at boss fights, you'll run into this scenario: tank is low on hp and Intimidate is on cool-down, casters are out of sp or very very low, dps are still kicking but will go down fast if they are focused by the boss and your own sp/scrolls/wands are getting dangerously low. The worse you can do is try to keep everyone alive, the dps can kill the boss the tank/casters can't, if they catch aggro let them die, you can always ress them after the fight with scrolls.

Second hardest thing, saying: "Sorry, no".
Most of the games ailments can be cured by pots you can buy at the guild merchant and most players have a high enough guild level to buy them (and most carry them all and buffs pots to boot), but some run out/forget or simply don't buy them and depending on how hard a quest is you might not have the sp/time to cure them, it comes down to triage again. Can you afford the sp/time of removing curse on the rogue versus healing all the team with a mass spell? Can your tank survive long enough for you to remove the caster's blindness? If you know a tough fight is coming up you might have to conserve the sp you have and refuse to remove ailments even if nothing is going on at the moment. You are not a hireling, you decide who get what and when.

Simplest things to learn, mitigating damage is better then healing it.
Giving acid resist is a lot cheaper then having to heal those Melf's Arrows every few minutes, making sure your guys are harder to hurt is always better then just healing them.

You get priority, everyone else can wait.
Been selfless is a fine quality, but if you are dead/incapacitated/knock-downed or otherwise disabled no one gets healed, in a way you are the most important player on your team (and seen how we get blamed for TPKs far too often I guess most players agree).

I main a "Battle" Cleric, the only battle stats/feats he has are 16 str at creation and Improved Shield Bash, it means I can kill trash mobs without using sp for the lower to mid levels (when your sp will be low enough that a bad group will leave you empty before the quest ends), can carry all my loot without problems and it goes well with my Improved Shield Mastery. I like been able to stand with the dps while taking manageable damage so my Aura/Bursts heals them(swinging my mace at low/mid levels and shielding up at higher levels) , the less sp I use the better it is for everyone.

P.S. Every clerics, no matter the build, needs the following items: Deathblock, the highest possible False Life item, highest con/wis/cha item you can equip, Feather Fall, Underwater Action, Devotion/Potency the highest the better, highest Fortification you can equip and SP pots (even if you never use them but it's reassuring to have some).

[Terebinthia]

Hey,

Lots of good input here and props to you for coming to the community for it.

I'd like to see a section on spells, particularly crowd control / damage spells. Soundburst, Command, Greater Command, Cometfall, Blade Barrier etc. Which buffs to carry, which to scroll.

Useful kit would be helpful too - already touched on, I'd nominate the Archivist's Necklace, Elfcrafted Robe, Blue Dragonscale Robe, that trinket from the Necropolis chain turn ins that gives you extra turns, the Sacred Band from Red Fens as well as the Devotion / Wizardry / Ardor items already mentioned.

A link to the Path to Enlightenment thread would also not be out of place at all

[Kulothar]

Overall if you are making a good middle of the line cleric it looks good but having played since beta at least 3 clerics to level 20 (edit sorry 2 to 20 one currently 16+1) I think you underestimate a bit.

Your charisma is too low since you miss out on turns. I played with a cleric last night that stated not to expect him to turn anything in a dungeon full of undead since he didn't invest in charisma. Understood, he doesn't think turning undead is that important. But he also could not keep Radiant Servant Aura up and ran out of burst mid way between shrines.

A healing cleric as stated should prevent damage to begin with but Enhancements are those abilities that fill in gaps using Turn Undead instead of spell points.
1) Divine Cleansing means you don't need to memorize cure poison or disease and give a Fort Save.
2) Divine Healing can be cast on the tank at the start of combat to regenerate him and give you more time to heal.
3) Divine Light can damage undead that are unturnable such as red named.
4) Divine might.... well not much there.
5) Divine Vitality may give the caster that one more spell to turn the tide.
6) Divine Aura is group heal over time so you can concentrate on other things.
6) Divine Burst is great for group restoration and heal but also a great undead damage spell.

I am not saying push Charima to 18 but do consider it a good thing to have.

As was stated preventing damage is key. Bless/Prayer/Holy Aura/Magic Circle for pluses. Cometfall, command for control. Direct damage spells just generate agro and make everyones job harder but disabling spells help. Once you gain levels you will figure out how to best use blade barrier, dismissal, destruction and implosion but at lower levels keeping the party alive is the only thing that matters.

Those that say you don't need diplomacy do not understand the agro generation of healing. You should spam diplomacy any time you are not doing something else since every time you heal someone you move up in agro. Once the tank dies the mob then runs over kill the archaine and will come to take you out next. (unless of course you healed the tank so much you have more agro than the archaine.)

Secondary skills. The Cleric should read all of the suggestions posted. One thing to consider is what happens when you run out of spell points and there are mobs between you and the shrine.

If a barbarian insists on running ahead and getting beat to a pulp then expects you to heal them so they can do it again, I remind them it is cheeper to rez them then cast heal. Manage your mana and make sure the group doesnt waste it any more than you should.

Also an Int of 8 does not help with skill points so I usually have at least a 10 so I can put points in things like spot, tumble, move silent, etc. Move silent and bluff are good for soloing to pull mobs one at a time or if you have to get past them.


Clerics should also keep lots of backup in scrolls just in case usually for pets and heals. I never memorise a summon pet or Death pact spells since scrolls do the job.

A Cleric should have at least some fighting ability to survive if low on sp. I personally like to concentrate on just one fighting skill. Elf clerics can use longbow and stay out of the fight or longsword if they have to. WF Greatsword works if you have to. Dwarf and shield/Dwarven Axe. The thing is to not try and be a tank unless you are building a battlecleric. If you are a battlecleric let the group know before they let you join since they will have to get another healer.

Best wishes and good luck .

[Kulothar]

I notice the reply about Shield feats and thought about it. My FvS is simular in that she took defensive feats and is dex based. At higher levels there will be close in fight where one of the best stategies is to get up close and personal. I keep a reavers shield or a healing boost shield for this and stand in the middle of the fight. Shield block and mass heal is great for some fights where everyone is beating on the boss so if you can reduce damage by all means get in there.

Items I like to have include the mace from invaders and the gloves from Reaver. The archivist collar is a must but the twisted talisman and the silver flame from Necro are good to have later on. I really like the simbiot from the Von 4 but the new simbiot is nice too but usually I wear a crystal cove talisman. Gear is important but that should be a separate discussion.

My cleric had DT armor that was purely defensive for when he got agro. It is hard to resist fighting back but he had to learn to block and spam diplomacy till the tank could get control again since a dead cleric is a non healing cleric. If you cast a blade barrier it is also good for staying alive while running around.

As for feats, absolutely once you get blade barrier the Quicken megafeat is essential to get the spell off before the mobs start beating on you.

[Kulothar]

We're WAY off-topic now, but apparently not many Clerics are aware that Harm even exists, judging by the responses I get from PMs when I hit them with it right before they're about to die (or is it "live", for a Pale Master? Still not sure how that works )

Harm is another one of those spells I scroll. It is a GREAT spell. It does 10pts dmg per level up to 150 but it also heals Pale masters. I used to carry mass inflict damage scrolls since they would not only heal the pale master but damage the mobs around him but Harm just seemed to be more useful. Otherwise I use a wand of inflict damage for small heals on them if I got one in a chest.

I started carrying harm scroll since I could cast them two levels earlier than I could cast the spell and their damage was nice for smaller mobs to one shot them. Later when I grouped with a pale master they became a staple in my scroll quick bar.

[Kulothar]

As you can tell I am not at work today.

Yup, I said the same thing at an earlier post.

Your only source of offensive casting before level 10 is to do healing bursts on the undead. It is easy to get from 6 to 10 through the undead quests, though.

I think a melee-focused cleric is a lot easier to play than a caster one, especially at the early game. The problem is that you can't expect new players to know what they are doing, so we get a bunch of terrible clerics who can't melee well enough and can't heal quickly enough.

One thing missing from the guide is a priorities breakdown. something like:

1) heal yourself. dead clerics are a sad thing.

2) Heal the main tank who is in immediate danger. Don't let that guy that's leading ahead and keeping mobs under control die.

3) Heal the caster who's keeping crowd control up and is in danger. Spells disappear when he dies, and then all those mobs break loose. At endgame, keeping the caster up is more important than keeping the tank, except for a few raids.

4) Heal other people who are close to dying.

5) remove crippling debuffs, like massive level drain or stat damage.

5) Melee / cast offensively. If the party's hp bars are looking good, commanding that troll makes sure they stay there.

7) rebuff important short-term stuff Boosting the rogue's reflex save before the trap is always nice.

8) top people off. you can do this with your aura/bursts between fights.

True, a one page "to do " list would be very helpful to begining clerics. I might add.

a) Clerics are very versital, do not assume there is one absolute build as each person has their own style. I have seen battleclerics heal effectively and healnannies tank effectively.

b) Clerics have limited SP so make the party play to your healing and buffing.

c) It is cheeper to put a dead zerger in your pack and rez him when you get to the fight than waste SP healing someone that won't stay with the group.

d) Non-essential heals are exactly that. Heal as needed but don't waste SP because the WF Caster has a booboo or the rogue is at 95% health.

e) Many non-essential skills are very useful.
Bluff = Solo pulls and easier fights.
Move Silent = Not agroing while sneaking or invisible.
Heal = Everyone at the shrine getting more HP back so less spot healing.
Jump = Well, clerics can't jump so it helps.
Tumble = Less painful falls.
Spot = Hey look at that assassin you just ran by and is poking you in the back now.
etc...

d) Turn undeads regenerate so the enhancement such as devine aura can come back once you run out of SP. Remember to use them, use them wisely since they come back but slowly. They are Charisma based.

e) On quests with few shrines scroll early and often. Don't be shy, ask for chest items you can use such as scrolls and wands. Some spells are best scrolled such as pets but others are good to scroll to conserve your spell points such as heal, mass heals, resurections, etc. Always have remove blindness pots for yourself until you get heal scrolls.

f) Defence and let the tank control the fight, Offence and take out the trash or Control and slow down the action. If you are doing control remind people that if they agro it they own it and are wasting your SP. (I hate doing soundburst and then the wizzy cast burning hands or the tank wades into the middle with the great axe at low levels and wakes them all back up). Command is a very nice control spell. Try it, you might like it.

g) There are a lot of spells. Change them to suit your needs and learn what they do. A separate discussion on spells at low levels is helpful. I keep a healing set of gear and a defensive set and wear them as appropriate. With buffs there is no reason a cleric cannot kill things effectively. (again I like bluff so I only have to kill one at a time.)

h) Clerics are slow and can't jump. Get haste boots and jump clickies or potions but make sure the tank realizes you can't heal him if he runs out of your range.

i) Make the tank do his job. If he doesn't taunt, don't heal until he gets agro again and try to keep yourself alive. If he complaint explain you don't have the SP to heal him since you have to use them all to stay alive since healing goes to the one taking the damage. Also remind casters to control their agro. (see the rez is cheaper than heals comment). If the tank can't do the job change gear and buffs at the next shrine and take over if you have to. Shield block/intimidate does actually work sometimes.

j) There are preconcieved concepts of what a cleric should be. If your build and style varies from that politely let your party know so they can adapt. If you have told them how they need to behave to stay alive and they fail they weren't paying attention. I use aura/burst a lot and if party members refuse to stay close that is their option as to how they want to patch heal themselves.

Many more but you can see how this could be a very long guide. Good luck with it.

[Atree]

For some reason lots of people assume that a battlecleric can't heal. Another misconception that seems prevalent is that clerics are fragile and should avoid agro.

In my personal experience this is not necessarily the case. The first toon I ever capped was a 28pt cleric with a splash of rogue and fighter. Started with 16 Str (all lvlups here), 14 Con and 8 Cha. Pugged and/or solo'd all the way to cap. With gear found along the way she performed adequately in most quests as solo healer.

Remember that gear (GFL, +6 con, Mino, GS = 155hp) combined with with the toughness feat and enhancements (another 40-50hp) and Con (base 14 + 1 tome + 1 enhance = 60hp) have a much bigger effect on health than class choice (160 cleric vs 240 barb) . A capped cleric can aspire to reach or exceed 400hp by cap.

Contrary to many players' beliefs, it doesn't take a lot of sp to keep a good party healthy. In fact in most quests Aura and bursts are sufficient. 3 base + 4 enhancements + 3 Cha (8 base + 6 item + 2 enhance = 16) = 10 turns per rest, which allows to keep the aura going pretty much indefinitely and still allows for a few bursts when needed. A burst with maximize, empower, empower healing, superior ardor, and relevant enhancements heals about 200hp over a decent radius.

Thus if the cleric runs out of sp it is either due to play style of the cleric (overhealing, lack of buffs, no CC), bad group (can't heal stupid) or overambitious expectations (we have a healer, lets do elite!!)

Final note (beyond scope of a 101 guide): A TR'd cleric with raid gear makes a superb tank. With sp-restoring gear (Torc, con-op) getting lots of agro is a good thing. It is far easier to manage your own health than that of others, esp with the aura healing continuously even when tripped/blocking. I was able to tank Lailat and Sinvala at lvl 14, with enough surplus sp coming in to heal/nuke/rez as required. This is likely not relevant for raids, since keeping agro vs raging barbs, sneaky rogues and trigger-happy savants will be tricky at best.

[DeafeningWhisper]

Hey,

Lots of good input here and props to you for coming to the community for it.

I'd like to see a section on spells, particularly crowd control / damage spells. Soundburst, Command, Greater Command, Cometfall, Blade Barrier etc. Which buffs to carry, which to scroll.

Useful kit would be helpful too - already touched on, I'd nominate the Archivist's Necklace, Elfcrafted Robe, Blue Dragonscale Robe, that trinket from the Necropolis chain turn ins that gives you extra turns, the Sacred Band from Red Fens as well as the Devotion / Wizardry / Ardor items already mentioned.

A link to the Path to Enlightenment thread would also not be out of place at all

I've been playing for 6 or so months and really could have used the sort of advice I found on this tread when I started out so I thought I should add some of my own.
On a 28 points build I would go for something like this for a caster cleric:

12 Str
08 Dex
14 Con
10 Int
17 Wis +5 level ups, +3 Cleric wisdom +1 greater human adaptability +6 item = 32 wis
11 Cha +1 from human adaptability + 6 item + Extra Turning feat (really a lot more useful then Mental Toughness if want more sp, in the main build add this instead of Extend) = 11 turns, not perfect but will be enough to work with

18 wis sounds good in theory but that means low Int, low Cha or worse low Con. This stat build will get you the minimum Str score to carry your loot and not be incapacitated every other minute, a whole 3 skill points from Int if you go Human (which I recommend for new players the extra feat and skill point are very valuable). The extra turns will reduce the amount of sp you'll need to use to heal once you hit level 6. Keep in mind that by the time your cleric reaches end game you'll have enough favors for 32 point build and can/should greater reincarnate so no need to worry too much about it from the get go, without 32 point having 18 Wis will actually harm your build. 3 skill points means you get Concentration, Balance and Jump or Diplomacy (I carry a full plate and tower shield, your average rock jumps better then me, I'de kill for ranks in jump). You'd think every caster would carry the Jump spell, well they don't, don't ask me why.

[MadDruid]

I dont know why people dont max cha as a cleric, it gives u more auras/Bursts and with the right enhancements lets u walk through anything with undead all through the game without breaking sweat. Only epics cause grief as turning nearly always fails but those extra bursts still do a decent amount of damage vs undead in epics as well. I always max Cha at expense of Str/Con as I dont do the close combat thing...(getting hands dirty is job for the less godly folk ) but even if I did a Battlecleric I'd want it maxed even if it means dropping a point of wis or two. The damage/Healing from the regening Bursts is worth this slight mana drop.

[sirgog]

On Charisma - there's actually very little return for increasing it as a stat.

+2 Charisma means one more turn attempt, and that's it.

Given RS's regenerate turns over time (enough to almost sustain the Aura), usually the only way you run out of turns is when spamming the Burst in an undead quest, or aggressively using Turn attempts on Divine Vitality.

Two build points for one more use of Radiant Burst isn't an impressive return for build points, IMO.

Charisma shines in some advanced Cleric builds (when you have Divine Might and/or a 2 level Paladin splash - I don't recommend the latter at present endgame but it might be worth considering if save DCs increase), but that's out of the scope of a 101 guide.

But if you want to improve your healing capability, Constitution provides a better return on build points (even if you are paying 2 points for it) than Charisma does. Con improves HP (dead clerics can't heal) and Concentration (reduces scroll failure in combat) - both better than Charisma. I think 14 Con and dumped Cha is the right balance on a 28 pointer; a 32 pointer that never wants to melee (ever) should go 16 Con and 8 Cha.

[garlor]

a healer/caster cleric doesn't care about str, cha is more important because it gives more auras and explosive auras ( whatever is the name ingame )

On Charisma - there's actually very little return for increasing it as a stat.

+2 Charisma means one more turn attempt, and that's it.

Given RS's regenerate turns over time (enough to almost sustain the Aura), usually the only way you run out of turns is when spamming the Burst in an undead quest, or aggressively using Turn attempts on Divine Vitality.

Two build points for one more use of Radiant Burst isn't an impressive return for build points, IMO.

Charisma shines in some advanced Cleric builds (when you have Divine Might and/or a 2 level Paladin splash - I don't recommend the latter at present endgame but it might be worth considering if save DCs increase), but that's out of the scope of a 101 guide.

But if you want to improve your healing capability, Constitution provides a better return on build points (even if you are paying 2 points for it) than Charisma does. Con improves HP (dead clerics can't heal) and Concentration (reduces scroll failure in combat) - both better than Charisma. I think 14 Con and dumped Cha is the right balance on a 28 pointer; a 32 pointer that never wants to melee (ever) should go 16 Con and 8 Cha.

and landing blows on a 20 instead of landing on a 20 ( oh wait, it's the same! ) on endgame is a great return ..., I consider cha more important than con ( once you have 14 con ), but I agree any of them is better than str

aw I think what you don't get with 450 hp you will not with 470

[ceiswyn]

a healer/caster cleric doesn't care about str

Believe me, you'll care about strength when looting Shroud makes you Burdened. Str on all clerics needs to be at least 10, to lug about all those scrolls.

[Flavilandile]

Believe me, you'll care about strength when looting Shroud makes you Burdened. Str on all clerics needs to be at least 10, to lug about all those scrolls.

I do concur... And you don't need to reach the Shroud to notice the Problem. Just Splinterskull will be enough to have a first glimpse of it... if not Tempest Spine will be the one to bring it out.

Once you have your 10 in STR, your 12 to 14 in CON the rest is really up to what clerical flavor you want to be and has already been discussed at length.

[Urjak]

Honestly i was too lazy to read all of the posts^^ ... but here some little advice gathered from my 3 cleric lives:

.) No matter on what you want to focus on as a divine, CONSTITUTION is very important try to start with at least 16 (14 on drow/elf, 15 on human)
.) For healing spells your wisdom score doesnt matter (thinking of melee clerics, well you should get to 19 at level 17 but that shouldnt be a problem, even with a low starting wisdom, though starting with less than 10 wisdom is unadvisable/only for vets with good gear)
.) IMHO clerics can focus on one of three directions. Try to choose one and stick to it ... Being very good in one and miserable in the other two is far better than a mix:
..) Offensive Caster: You will focus on offensive crowd control spells (probably the most newbie friendly one^^). Try to get your wisdom as high as possible and take max empower feats, maybe even sf:conj, gsf:conj
..) Melee aka Battlecleric: Focus on Strength! (If you want to fight with two weapons a few points in dex will be necessary) If you got some spare points put them on charisma to get divine might (minimum for first tier is 14 4th tier is 20) If you skip dm dump cha. (But thats it only in short ... i guess i could write a whole book on battleclerics lol) ... oh and extend is a must-have-feat on this build
..) Turn Cleric: This more of a flavour build, since there are no epic/end game undead that could be turned (sub-t skeletons r immune to turn) For this build you will want high wisdom and charisma. On low to mid level this is a very funny build to play (though it requires access to necro 1-3 to play this build really efficiently) and on high level you will have nearly infinite divine vitality and healing aura/burst usages (at level 20 you will have around 20-25 turns available with just basic gear!)
.) Oh and dont forget to pick up the TOUGHNESS feat! makes life a lot easier

So much to the build department ... now some gameplay tipps:
If you play a cleric/favoured soul a very short response time from you is required and expected! (Noone likes that slow healer who needed just 0,5 seconds too long and so you got killed) How to achieve that? Here some tipps from my experiences as battlecleric and turn cleric:
IMO there are two possibilities:
.) (My prefered method since it lets you move and turn faster) Get a mouse with more than 3 buttons:
..) IMO a mouse with 4 buttons is already enough (i use one with 5 but ddo doesnt recognize the 5th for some unkown reason O_o)
..) Assign your highest level healing spell to that additional button
..) Assign your second highest level healing spell to ctrl+that additional button
..) Remap F1-F6 to number 1-6 (and practice ... lots of practice pressing theese keys without having to look at your keyboard!)
..) Go into mouse-look-mode (very nice for battleclerics since mouse-look-mode lets you easier chase mobs around)
..) Now u can fight (right mouse button), scroll view distance (middle mouse button), select stuff (left mouse button) and heal (4th mouse button). This method needs some practice ... but once you mastered it nothing will stop you from becoming a really really fast healer
.) Learn to play with your keyboard only:
..)Remap your main hotbar (1-0) from the numbers on the main part of the keyboard to the num-pad (this also works very nice when playing a caster). Now "all" you have to do is:
..) Move with wasd
..) Select ppl with F1-F6 (you could also remap them to the stand 1-6 number keys for even faster selection)
..) Press the correct key on your num-pad with the right hand to select the right healing spell.

.) Some other advice (also i prolly get neg-repped for this, but it s simply what i experienced (and i think 3 cleric lives are proof for at least some experience on that topic^^)
..) During mob fights people are often spread wide out and players dont/rarely get damaged at the same time => dont waste sps on mass cures where you would probably hit only one or max two players at once => better use the sp for one heal spell (which is very good hp/sp) which heals the target up to full (or nearly if barb) health instead of spamming 3 cures for 5 times the cost.
..) During boss fights almost exclusively use mass cures/heals. Since all players are hunched up around the boss you will easily hit them all with your mass spells. Only use single target heals when that sorc steals aggro from the barb tank^^
..) Try to make use of your radiant aura and burst. Unlike an archer or caster you are NOT supposed to stay back far away from the melees ... try to have radiant aura always on and place yourself at the center of the battle so you affect as many people as possible ... and shield block (just incase you for whatever reason draw aggro/get hit by cleave/...) When you see that several people got damaged (but not seriously => then it would be time to instantly throw them a heal^^) throw in a radiant burst! If you are a turn cleric you can heal groups through quests with nearly no sp usage at all (more room for some offensive spells )

phew long post (longer than i expected^^) ... hope it helps some newbs (and some noobs too hopefully^^)

[ballsz]

Every new cleric should know not to over heal. No matter how much the melee nag you, you do not have to make that red bar full. Over healing is a huge waste of SP and especially as a cleric your SP will be precious.

Always keep in mind that every player in the party is just as a effective with 1 HP as they are at full health. This does not mean wait until they hit 1hp to heal them though, as a good rule of thumb 50%-60% health should be healed. This can vary greatly though depending on what level you are at and what characters you are healing as well as how strong your heals are. So you will need to learn to use your best judgment.

Your role in the party is to help make sure that the quest succeeds. Not to keep everyone happy.

[MisosOrcus]

The build offered is not bad over all, however, if going for radiant servant, I believe you would be better off leaving Wisdom at 17 or 18 and using the points to oost charisma. This will allow you to heal even when out of SP. Yes the uses of Radiant servant do regenerate but only one a minute. It will also allow you to be better at turniong undead and using skills such as haggle and diplomacy. I know some people feel you must max out on wisdom, but I will have to quote a warforged TR player I was debating with "In the end it one les plus only means 20 less spell points and one less plus to your rolls. With feats and good equipment you never notice the difrence" at lower levels how ever, I feel that the extra uses of turn undead are invaluable. SO personally i would put 14 in STR and Cha and leave wisdom at 16. This is of course just my thoughts, if you dfisagree feel free. I am not looking to argue just expressing what I think.

[Indel_Eventine]

I have 2 clerics, one 20, and another about 1.5 ranks from 20.

A couple of things. At low levels, Divine Cleansing is a very good enhancement to take, as it removes Poison and Disease. Poison is the primary issue, as it is fairly common and can hurt the party fairly badly. Not needed as much at higher levels, when spells/wands/scrolls can do most of the things it can.

Your feat list: Your list is for humans, which gives an xtra feat. Other races get only 7 feats.

1) Toughness – Increases Hit Points (HP) at first level and provides additional HP for each new level, allowing a player to take the Racial Toughness enhancement. Taking Toughness results in such a significant HP boost that it's practically mandatory. This is in no way required at level 1. You have 3 hit points from it at level one, 5 at level 3. It is important, but not a must for level 1. My L20 cleric doesn't even have the feat, and still has 320 hit points (however, I generally just heal. Getting the feat with one enhancement would increase my hit points by 10 percent, so it is still a good thing to have, but no where near "mandatory".)

• 1) Extend Spell – While this metamagic feat is active, spells with durations last twice as long, but they consume 10 additional Spell Points (SP). Also not necessary at level 1 - level 1 spells that would use extend cost 10 sps already, so casting it twice is just as good.

• 3) Empower Healing Spell – While this metamagic feat is active healing spells are 50% more effective, but consume 10 additional Spell Points (SP). A must have, but a little wasted on healing spells that cost less than 20 sps to case in the first place, since you only get a 50% boost. Can be taken later. (note, once you get the empower healing enhancement line, it only costs 6 more - the best use, IMO, as you cast healing spells more than anything else - so you can just leave it on (by the time you can get it, you hardly ever use your level 1/2 cures anyway)

• 6) Maximize Spell – While this metamagic feat is active, damage (and healing!) spells deal double damage (and healing!), but they consume 25 additional Spell Points (SP). Good, but not a must have - again, the additional sp cost is usually not worth it unless the original spell costs at least 25, so this can be taken later. It can be useful in final boss fights where you have a full mana bar and can spam damage spells, but other than that, it is a dangerous mana sink at low levels. This does stack with Cure spells, but not Heal spells.

• 9) Empower Spell – While this metamagic feat is active, spells do 50% more damage, but consume 15 additional spell points. Same as Maximize - innefficient unless the spells cost 30 to start with.

• 12) Quicken Spell – While this metamagic feat is active, spells cast twice as fast and cannot be interrupted by enemy attacks but consume 10 additional spell points. The only truly useful spell this impacts is mass heal (with the changes to Blade Barrier so that it casts faster). Not needed until you reach that level, but almost a must have for higher level raids - the party can wipe while you try to cast mass heal without it. Mass cures do not need it, so it remains "amost" a must, you can get by without it.

• 15) Spell Penetration – Adds +2 to your caster level check for defeating spell resistance.
Definately a good one, should take earlier - a lot of spell resistance exists in the Von series and Gianthold.

• 18) Heighten Spell – While this metamagic feat is active, your spells are raised to the highest spell level your character can cast, making them more difficult to resist, but increasing their Spell Point (SP) cost. Meh, I don't have it on either cleric. Good for the death spells.

A couple you didn't discuss -

Mental Toughness is useful at lower levels, as it gives 10 to start and 5 each level, for 105 at 20 - but 105 at 20 isn't anywhere near as useful at 30 sps are at level 5. Take and drop later if you desire.

Extra Turning - 4 extra uses of your Divine Vitality/Healing/Cleansing - but more importantly of your Raident servant aura/burst. I have it on both of my clerics. Used to be more important when the turns didn't regen, but I still regularly use them all in the harder quests. I have 16-18 of themm on mine, and that is a TON of SPs to return to another cleric, wiz, or sorc - also useful at shrines to allow a wiz to buff and be restored before the cleric rests.

Augmented Summoning - this should be the level 1 feat taken - it is useful through all levels, and is especially useful at lower levels.



My two cents - I do not cast a ton of offensive spells, I generally hang back and heal, so a more aggressive cleric might have more luck with how you have set out the enhancements.