Drama on a VON5 <3

[Arshan]

Because dramas always create interesting threads

Well i'm more after a general opinion here, just to know if i was right or wrong.

Here are the facts :

Few days ago, i pugged a von5 for xp (+25% bonus ftw !!!), was only for xp NO ONE was doing von6.
Everything is going quite "normal" (half of the party was for the first time moving elsewhere of the very first room, discovering OOOOH the quest isnt doing it by itself we need to do stuff... well we all know it, and TRs even more.).
So after like... 45 minutes we get at boss, open the door, traps disarmed, we get in, kinda happy to finally call it a end, enjoying in advance the incoming 30k xp... then the leader realized that someone was still behind a door at the bottom, certainly trapped.
He decided to go get back him, implying to open the double doors with str/wis/target, everyone coming back and making, for some of us, more ticking on this 25% bonus + xp pot (i try to sound greedy for more objectivity ).
After a few tells with friends in the party, we decided to ask, why not just finishing now, everyone in the quest will get the experience, boss or not, and since we're not doing v6 and there is absolutely no loot, having the 12 people on the last room is not a MUST. The leader decided otherwise, and i finally came down, a bit reticent i admit it, trying still to ask why not finishing now since some of us may be in a hurry, or maybe just upset of spending so much time on a quest.
After an enjoyable arguement on voice chat, that is not useful to describe here, we finally got the left behind guy back. Lucky me, my watch told me we wasted exactly 34 minutes to get the guy back (would have been around 30 if i had immediatly got down to use the str lever...).
All i mean is, was i wrong to try to balance the respect between left behind people and the 8 others or more wasting these 30 minutes on a time that would have been enough to do the quest a second time ?

When i tried to explain that (very nicely imo) to the leader in tells once the quest was done, i got squelched. Just meant to help him in future pugs with less understandable people.

Maybe i was wrong, maybe the star in a party MUST be obeyed wherever, whenever, whatever is asked. Though i keep thinking that a leader's job is to balance his attention over all the members of a party, carewise, timewise, and respectwise.

To put it in a nutshell, my final question is : what is, in your opinion, the job of a leader, and how should we listen to him ? I mean totally pugwise of course.


RAWR IBTD <3

[Buggss]

If it would've meant the one missing would miss out on anything then waiting would've been right. With zero loot, chests or loss of any kind I think as long as the one missing and the leader weren't the only healers I would've just gone ahead and started the last fight as long as the majority agree.

No, the star does not always mean you do as told. If that was the case I'd still be in Gwylan's "waiting for a rogue for the extra xp..."

[Arshan]

Player left behind was a bard. We had 2 bards in the party btw. If i remember well there was maybe also a sorc in the lava... but 3 other casters in the party. And as we all know it elemental spells work awesomely on von5 boss

[rodallec]

The Caster just behind the north energy barrier door on the right that didn't (I forget why) want to use his half full sp bar to jump and try to get to the rock stairs out of the lava..
Yeah that was annoying.. Oh he didn't have ff that's right..
I Dont know
In that group we did waste at least 30 mins trying to open north doors again and saving someone from lava..
Leaders should strive not to waste people time.

[insaneuou]

Just wondering why did u guys wait?

No loot No von6. Everyone wud be happy someone started the fight coz 30k xp and no time lost-does even the leader and guy left behind can complain abt after the completion without them?

Anyways how did u know u got squelched?

[Arshan]

Just wondering why did u guys wait?

No loot No von6. Everyone wud be happy someone started the fight coz 30k xp and no time lost-does even the leader and guy left behind can complain or rant abt?

Anyways how did u know u got squelched?

Well, when u wasted 45 Minutes on quest + 15 minutes expecting this little stuff to be done on a normal time (5 minutes max ?) then you just think that 1 hour wasted anyway... 30k still worth the +15 Minutes incoming.

Then we were only 3 or 4 still upstair, no healer, not buffed and even if we could have basically made it, a fail would have been blamable for us. The top of the story is that the caster we saved used elem spells on last fight hehehe ^^

[Chai]

Its all fun and games, until youre the dude who is in the situation where he cant get there due to being trapped / dead somewhere else. Abandoning this guy of course means he learns nothing, and you end up with him in another run a few weeks later and hes the same noob, wasting everyones time again.

You joined a VoN run w/ too many pikers. Its not solely the dude at the ends fault. Going back and getting someone might be 5 minutes tops. Piking in the beginning / middle stages is where all the time gets added on because no ones doing anything. I bet more than half the people who wanted to complete and get out quickly at the end were piking in the beginning / middle.

[Arshan]

No there wasnt pikers cause i took myself care to show people what to do in von5 since it was slow, and explained the run to people following me. Everyone was doing somehting, at least running

[Chai]

45 minutes and no pikers? Were you guys bluff pulling the mobs one at a time?

If you got first timers / people who need to learn / etc, and you are teaching, then expect the raid to take some time. If this isnt the case, and everyone knows whats up, people WERE piking if it took 45 minutes, heh. Since people were groaning about people getting left behind taking too long, the group you were NOT teaching was likely not being lead at all.

Why did it take 30 minutes to go get the people who were left behind? Thats a 3-5 minute operation to get to where they are, toss a DDoor, and run back to the last boss fight.

Last time I saw one of these arguements take place about how we shouldnt be going back to save idiots who fell in the lava, while the two people who disagreed were having their peeing contest, I put my fire resist and protect on, jumped in and got their soulstone, jumped out, put up a door, and ran back. They were still arguing about it when I arrived. 30 minutes is 27 minutes longer than it would have taken to grab em.

[Sarisa]

No there wasnt pikers cause i took myself care to show people what to do in von5 since it was slow, and explained the run to people following me. Everyone was doing somehting, at least running

Good. We need less people piking VoN5 when running EV6's. I hate when I get asked to join a "private" EV6, and the two non-guild people are the only ones doing VoN5.

[Arshan]

45 minutes and no pikers? Were you guys bluff pulling the mobs one at a time?

If you got first timers / people who need to learn / etc, and you are teaching, then expect the raid to take some time. If this isnt the case, and everyone knows whats up, people WERE piking if it took 45 minutes, heh. Since people were groaning about people getting left behind taking too long, the group you were NOT teaching was likely not being lead at all.

Why did it take 30 minutes to go get the people who were left behind? Thats a 3-5 minute operation to get to where they are, toss a DDoor, and run back to the last boss fight.

Last time I saw one of these arguements take place about how we shouldnt be going back to save idiots who fell in the lava, while the two people who disagreed were having their peeing contest, I put my fire resist and protect on, jumped in and got their soulstone, jumped out, put up a door, and ran back. They were still arguing about it when I arrived. 30 minutes is 27 minutes longer than it would have taken to grab em.

I never said leading was awesome... i tried to be as partial as possible in my thread but i think you can clearly get what i think ^^ Ya 45 minutes to take it down cause people didnt want to let me carry voice ring and then yes had to explain even to the voice/ring carryer what to do with at wheels...
I led another one the same day on hard : 21 minutes pug. Not awesome but decent for a pug. Just a matter of knowing what to do and ask people the good thing to do. Taking time to explain them how it works makes next runs even faster of course. And i love to do it. I may even make teaching session on von5 in my wasted times

[Impaqt]

Exactly what door can someone get trapped behind where they cant get back to the beginning in VOn5?

he was a bard to boot?

Um.. DDoor???

[Arshan]

AHAHAH you got another point i can't explain Maybe he wasnt a bard, maybe no SP, maybe not the spell I dunno i was just not understanding WHY go getting him back for so much wasted time. We all agreed i think but i can't answer everything i wasnt in leader's mind ^^

[KingOfCheese]

I wouldn't have done it, but . . . the temptation to covertly activate the end fight while the 11 were in the last room would have been very, very tempting.

[Impaqt]

I still dont think there is any door in VOn 5 that prevents you from getting back to the beginning... Plenty that you need to unlock or pull a lever to move forward to quest objectives... But getting back to thestart is not obstructed anywhere.

[Arshan]

I still dont think there is any door in VOn 5 that prevents you from getting back to the beginning... Plenty that you need to unlock or pull a lever to move forward to quest objectives... But getting back to thestart is not obstructed anywhere.

I think he had felt on a pipe after activating a way or so... i Can't remember well

[mournbladereigns]

That's a 50 DKP MINUS!!!!!!!!!!

needs moar drama.

[LordPiglet]

The Caster just behind the north energy barrier door on the right that didn't (I forget why) want to use his half full sp bar to jump and try to get to the rock stairs out of the lava..
Yeah that was annoying.. Oh he didn't have ff that's right..
I Dont know
In that group we did waste at least 30 mins trying to open north doors again and saving someone from lava..
Leaders should strive not to waste people time.

wait, what?

You know, I really try to get along nice, I don't maintain physical black list, I group with pretty much anyone. This is one of those times where I might have accidentally clicked on something. A caster who was too lazy to do jump and didn't have feather fall should have done resist and protection from fire and go, or just f'in stayed there. Or just used that handy level 4 spell, Dimension Door.

[Chai]

I still dont think there is any door in VOn 5 that prevents you from getting back to the beginning... Plenty that you need to unlock or pull a lever to move forward to quest objectives... But getting back to thestart is not obstructed anywhere.

Its likely the door that crossed the threshold from -9 hp to -10 and beyond.

Even if someone was a complete first timer, had no idea whatsoever etc. - and at the furthest point from the end fight possible, someone could toss a DDoor, run to the lost individual, toss another DDoor, and run from the middle to the endfight. - couple minutes, tops. 30+ minutes wasted to get this person?

The ONE door that does close is the door to the end fight itself after that fight is activated. Since no one was doing VON 6 it isnt really an issue here.

I think some people read the "how not to be spotted piking" thread that went up a while ago, and got in under the wire, heh.

[HallowedOne]

A true leader will listen to advice and try to come up with a solution based on the wisdom of his fellow teammates.

A true leader will NEVER be unconsiderate against educated opinions.

If a leader disrespects the opinion of others, he does not deserve to be called a leader. Wise people won't bow to a false leader mistakes.

Wise people will only see from afar the havoc a false leader brings.