Update 11: The Range Pass

[Raithe]

I guess I'm missing the context here... Are you trying to balance out the OP's suggested upgrades? Your post is a little confusing.

I'm listing the suggestions I would make for ranged combat. In all honesty I should probably be suggesting a decrease in ranged alacrity, especially for low levels, but I'm not going to bother because they won't take something back that they only recently adjusted upwards (and low levels are currently being treated as extra-special in terms of lack of difficulty).

The problem with these ranged combat threads is that it's only the people who are dissatisfied with their ranged tactics that come to the forums and care enough to expound on their dissatisfaction. Trust me, there are plenty of ranged users who go about their business in DDO without even noticing all the "flaws" in which the forumites are submerged.

For the sake of a balance of opinions, I'm simply listing mine that I think ranged combat needs to be nerfed, unless they want their game to turn into a plain jane shooter without any signficant difficulty at all.

[Thrudh]

For the sake of a balance of opinions, I'm simply listing mine that I think ranged combat needs to be nerfed, unless they want their game to turn into a plain jane shooter without any signficant difficulty at all.

Okay, got it... you think ranged is overpowered...

I'll keep that in mind when I read your posts in the future... I now know how accurate your opinions are.

[Raithe]

Okay, got it... you think ranged is overpowered...

Yep, sure do.

I, however, generally forgive people for not being able to comprehend why an arcane archer got 80% of the kills in a particular quest. They are, after all, subject to the poor judgements and incorrect assessments of other people who aren't very good at playing the game.

[fco-karatekid]

My first question would be: how are both toons built? What is their stat layout, feat list, item setup, etc. Discounting Power attack, a ranged character should typically be doing the same amount of damage on non-crits when using comparable weapons.

What weapons are you using? Would it be possible for you to grab a +1 longbow and a +1 longsword on both characters and smack a training dummy around a bit?

You know, I was insulted for about 6 seconds when you posted this; but when that round was up, I realized - I have NEVER done this.

With the variances in bow enhancements, sword enhancements, etc... there are too many variables to give me a fair comparison. Lemme get some +1 plain old weaps from a vendor, smack our dummy, and post back the results.

I know up front the +5 arcane arrows will be an issue, so I'll post with plain ole arrows, too.

I'm gonna get "my god she's gimp" posts as well, but oh well.

EDIT RESULTS:

I have to say i was stunned...

CONDITIONS
Nakee, plain (NOT +1) dual longswords vs. plain longbow with plain arrows, bob the dummy on airship, no buffs, no nothin'

RELEVANT CHAR FEATS/ENHANCEMENTS:
All TWF Line except Oversized
Imp Crit Pierce, slash, Ranged (irrelevant, really since dummy's immune to crits)
Weap Focus Ranged
Aerenal Dmg I (longswords)
Ranged Dmg I and II

RELEVANT NAKEE STATS:
STR - 20 (+5)
DEX - 24 (+7)
BAB +19

RESULTS:
Bow - 14 Avg, several spikes typically around 16
Dual Longswords - 13 Average, Spikes typically at 14, doublestrikes kept screwing me up and flurrying dmg.

Yet it was clear the dual longswords were tearing through the dummy's HP at a HUGE rate.

So the main difference (and I now concur with the posters above who say it's all about attack speed) are base rate of attack and the chance to doublestrike combined.

[waterboytkd]

tl;dr

In my estimation, the problem with ranged is that it all hinges on manyshot. If manyshot is going, your AA, or even just your ranger, is doing great damage (insane damage with an AA).

The thing was, what was manyshot in PnP? It was a way that an archer could get away from melee combat and still do decent damage. Not as good damage as if they had a full attack action to just unload 5 to 6 shots, but decent damage. Why not try to get to that in DDO?

Instead of tweaking manyshot, tweak ranged attack speed and rapid shot.

RANGED ATTACK SPEED: If you're moving, your ranged attack speed is as it is now. If you're standing still, your ranged attack speed increases to the same rate that a character would attack with a 1-handed weapon. And maybe this would apply to all ranged weapons, not just bows?

RAPID SHOT: If you're standing still, when you make a ranged attack (and, again, maybe not just with a bow?), you gain a 40% chance to make an extra attack (this would be same bonus that a character with Two-Weapon Fighting, but not the Improved or Greater versions, would get). Prerequisites: DEX 15. Yeah, it's a break from PnP, but I removed Point-Blank Shot as a prereq. That feat is still needed for AA, but not all archers would have to take it.

IMPROVED RAPID SHOT: If you're standing still, when you make a ranged attack, you gain a 60% (or 80%, whichever is better for game balance) chance to make an extra attack (essentially making this Improved or Greater TWF). Maybe make a Greater Rapid Shot, too, but that would require an inordinate amount of feats to be good at archery. Prerequisites: DEX 17, Rapid Shot.

EDIT: Thinking more about it, there are a number of effects in the game that add +10% ranged alacrity right now, so a 60% chance to shoot another arrow is probably the right call. IF that +10% alacrity was unique to ranger capstone, then I'd say go to 80%. But it's not, thanks to ToD sets. Of course, maybe that doesn't matter? But +10% alacrity with a 60% chance to proc an extra shot is almost GTWF chance to proc an off-hand.

There would be one thing they would have to add to manyshot to preserve game balance, though:

MANYSHOT: If this ability is activated, you can not get the increased attack rate while standing still, nor benefit from the Rapid Shot feats.

There, now archers can kite as effectively as they do now, but if they're in a group that doesn't want kiting done, or are fighting raid bosses, they can just stand still and have comparable damage to a melee dps.

Last thought: On Bow Strength, gotta agree that that feat should go. It didn't exist in PnP. You just had Composite Bows so that you could add your Strength. Whereas introducing a new kind of bow would be a giant pain in the butt, just get rid of Bow Strength and let everyone add their Strength to damage with Bows. It won't imbalance the game. In fact, it'll make Bows attractive weapons for all melee classes, rather than just rangers and AAs.

[Antheal]

I'm listing the suggestions I would make for ranged combat. In all honesty I should probably be suggesting a decrease in ranged alacrity, especially for low levels, but I'm not going to bother because they won't take something back that they only recently adjusted upwards (and low levels are currently being treated as extra-special in terms of lack of difficulty).

The problem with these ranged combat threads is that it's only the people who are dissatisfied with their ranged tactics that come to the forums and care enough to expound on their dissatisfaction. Trust me, there are plenty of ranged users who go about their business in DDO without even noticing all the "flaws" in which the forumites are submerged.

For the sake of a balance of opinions, I'm simply listing mine that I think ranged combat needs to be nerfed, unless they want their game to turn into a plain jane shooter without any signficant difficulty at all.

Have you ever even PLAYED a ranged character?

I mean a proper ranged character, not a melee specced toon that spends 20 seconds on Manyshot every two minutes.

[murf201]

Have you ever even PLAYED a ranged character?

I mean a proper ranged character, not a melee specced toon that spends 20 seconds on Manyshot every two minutes.

Actually he has a couple ranged toons and i wouldn't take either of them into any quest . There so horribly built and poorly geared it's a wonder how he could possibly have managed to make statements on ranged at all . You would think with five years of playing you could of made 1 gs item let alone epic and named gear .

[negativeprogression]

Considering that the devs thought shuriken expertise would be a useful addition to ranged combat I dont think it's really worth hoping that they will improve things in the future.

[fco-karatekid]

Updated post 64 http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...2&postcount=64 with results of testing same AA ranged vs. melee.

[licho]

1) The first thing to go is Bow Strength. This feat is automatically granted to rangers but everyone else requires you to get feats that you don't need on something that is basically required. As a change to ranged combat, all bows (not crossbows) automatically allow you to add your strength modifier to damage. This reduces the number of feats required to make a ranged character as well as allow other non-ranged characters to use bows as a ranged back-up weapon that deals more then 1d10+5 for a capped character.

I agree that bow stranght was bad idea, the only reason to introduce it is to make life of no caster more miserable and reduce number of optitons for them. The str to bow dmg should be free for all ( maybe add a little twist that you must be proficient with bow to benefit from it) so game has more versality.

However i do not agree that xbows should not get anything, even thou they are simple weapon.
My idea is to 0.5 dex modifier to xbow dmg. Its based on dnd 3.5 (there was a feat for that there).
Sure it makes xbow single ability fighters (whats different from full str barbs?) and makes some nice synergy with mechanic, but... how many topics states that rogue mechanics are overpowered? Also there is no much problems with 1.5str multiplyer for 2h so 1x int + 0.5 dex is no difference.

If we are making a range pass there should affect all means of ranged combat not just bows.

[Failedlegend]

IMPROVED RAPID SHOT: If you're standing still, when you make a ranged attack, you gain a 60% (or 80%, whichever is better for game balance) chance to make an extra attack (essentially making this Improved or Greater TWF). Maybe make a Greater Rapid Shot, too, but that would require an inordinate amount of feats to be good at archery. Prerequisites: DEX 17, Rapid Shot.

I agree with alot of what you said (although I don't agree with the not moving thing thats kinda pointless) but please do not suggest another feat be added currently there 6 Feats that are 100% required for a good Repeater build and that's not including toughness so unless your playing a class that gets extra feats ie. fighter it would be impossible to take the feat without dropping toughness or be forced into being a human.

Maybe have Rapid Shot scale with character level or BAB.

If we are making a range pass there should affect all means of ranged combat not just bows.

Agreed it's too often that people forget thats theres ranged weapons other than Bows

Sure it makes xbow single ability fighters (whats different from full str barbs?) and makes some nice synergy with mechanic, but... how many topics states that rogue mechanics are overpowered? Also there is no much problems with 1.5str multiplyer for 2h so 1x int + 0.5 dex is no difference.

Again agreed

[Schmoe]

Does anyone have any sort of official indication that a ranged pass *might* be in the works for U11? The only thing I know about is something from Eladrin about re-scripting crossbows. Other than that, this whole topic appears to be a giant pipe dream.

Don't get me wrong, I like pipe dreams as much as the next guy. I just like them to be clearly labeled.

[Requiro]

Does anyone have any sort of official indication that a ranged pass *might* be in the works for U11? The only thing I know about is something from Eladrin about re-scripting crossbows. Other than that, this whole topic appears to be a giant pipe dream.

Don't get me wrong, I like pipe dreams as much as the next guy. I just like them to be clearly labeled.

There is no official information.

This is all what we know:
- Xbows bug will be solved
- Great Crossbow will get bonus on Natural roll 20 with proficient user
- Rapid Reload feat will be improve.
- We will see Deepwood Sniper II

Rest are pure speculation.

So in my option in U11 we will see more Xbows love, nothing more. (maybe some new Named Repeaters? )

[Ganak]

Having played a 98% of the time ranged ranger for approx four years, I suggest ranged attack speed and phantom arrows (which is better these days than in the past) are the two areas that hold ranged back.



I will be close to finishing 3 ranger/3 monk past lives on my ranger around when U11 hits in what I would hope to be no later than the second week of September.

Now about the Epic Thornlord shard drop rates...

[Xionanx]

Fix ranged attack speed

This, if nothing else is done to ranged combat, this ONE thing would be enough to make me happy.

[fatherpirate]

There are really only 2 problems with range combat, but they are big problems

All rng weapons have the same range
I can throw a lump of coal the same distance someone can shoot a compound longbow, that is stupid

and

Melee number of attacks per round are jacked WAY over PnP...what, a lvl 3 fighter gets 3 per round ??
and rng weapons don't.
That means range weapons are only 1/2 -1/3 as effective (in the hands of a melee build) as was intended
in PnP.

how to fix?

well as for the range, limit the weapons to thier intended range, if a dart is good to 30 ft, then limit it to that

as for the rng weapon gimp vs. melee
at the very least

untrained with weapon, keep it as current
trainind with weapon...the rng weapon ALWAYS uses the best to hit bonus that a meleee weapon
gets in an attack set. so if the toon would get +3 / +5 / +6 with melee, the rng weapon just gets +6
If the toon is an arcane archer or a ranger OR has the range weapon as a specialty, they get as
many attacks per round as a melee weapon...but also share thier hit bonus

my 2 cents worth

[Almagnus1]

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but what about using Zen Archery + high enough Wisdom score (in place of dexterity) as an alternate way to obtain some of the archer related feats?

So, with Zen Archer, the following feats would need:

Wis  Feat
17   Manyshot
19   Improved Precise Shot
13   Precision
13   Rapid Shot
13   Shot on the Run

That would be in addition to their other requirements, and not replacing them, so you still must have the other feats, base attack bonuses, etc.

[NytCrawlr]

Basic ranged changes:

1) The first thing to go is Bow Strength. This feat is automatically granted to rangers but everyone else requires you to get feats that you don't need on something that is basically required. As a change to ranged combat, all bows (not crossbows) automatically allow you to add your strength modifier to damage. This reduces the number of feats required to make a ranged character as well as allow other non-ranged characters to use bows as a ranged back-up weapon that deals more then 1d10+5 for a capped character.

Don't know if this was already covered or not, but the rules in PnP allowed you to use strength with composite bows up to the strength rating of the bow. Instead of just allowing all bow, with the exception of crossbows, use strength, I think it would be better to actually start using composites for this instead, especially since I can't see an inherent difference in the game currently other than maybe a range cap.

Edit: Actually someone beat me to it, and the enchantment bonus makes sense for the limit of strength bonus that can be applied too.

Just my two cents, and also liked the ideas for many shot, and it works better than just adjusting the cool down, which was my original idea.

+1.

[Koshy11]

You folks are odd, if its about range pass wouldn't it be something at affects more than just bows and crossbows? Instead all you bicker about is builds architypes, feats, and even how overpowered range dps is? (really? REALLY?)

The other odd thing is the common problem faced by any ammunition user, swapping arrow/bolts and our lovely quivers. I haven't played long enough to be able to suggest something brilliant to fix it, but at least I find it an unending pain, since Ammunitions could potentially increase the damage..

On top of that, the 'abbot bug' which I think we all kind of figure out by now, after going through a stack of exhaustible; aka non returning thingies you throw, the first item you equip and use = thrown away. Isn't that a bigger problem as well in the range department?

What does interest me is the dev saying something about Xbow action splitting into fire and reload, would that apply to all pew pew, because potentially that will change the rate of fire of different weapons right off the bat would it not?

[waterboytkd]

In addition to what I put in post 65:

Alter the basics of ranged weapons in a couple fundamental, but in my mind beneficial, ways:

THROWN WEAPONS: As these are primarily the purview of melee characters that have a ranged weapon "just in case", I would make them more melee-friendly. Change them so that the Attack Mod is strength (and leave the Damage Mod as Strength). With the exception of:

SHURIKENS: Since these are mostly a monk weapon, and monks seem to be divided into two camps (strength-based and dexterity-based), and they're an exotic weapon with stats weaker than all the other thrown weapons, change their Attack Mod to the higher of strength or dexterity, and the Damage Mod to the higher of strength or dexterity.

CROSSBOWS: Change these so that they have a Damage Mod, and make that dexterity. It'll at least make Crossbows good in the hands of specialized builds, and decent in the hands of melee dex-based rogues (since they wouldn't want to use thrown weapons.

BOWS: As these are martial weapons (compared to Crossbows, which are simple weapons), change these so that their Damage Mod is the higher of your strength or dexterity. That way, melee based rangers still have higher damage with the bow, but archery focused characters would deal better damage than they do now.

I feel that these changes, combined with the changes in post 65, would bring ranged combat from the weird, often argued, shadowy regions of maybe gimpiness, into the realm of totally legit use.