Update 11: The Range Pass

[Doxmaster]

Ad.3 Because most melee players think that DPS = Damage (against one target) Per Second, while this is Damage (overall) Per Second. And when well played ranged toon targeting 2-3 moobs and have great DPS, no melee notice this (they are concentrate on one target only) .

I forgot this point:

As the number of monsters standing in a straight line relative to the bow-user increases, their DPS also increases. It is not difficult to find a melee enemy and a caster/archer and arrange the melee enemy to be in front of the caster/archer. Considering most enemies approach in packs of 5+ with a caster among them, catching 1 melee, the caster and any passing melees in your shot is standard.

Making Improved Precise Shot and Manyshot mutually exclusive and modifying Manyshot to be sustained damage instead of burst damage would be amazing.

[Sequell]

1- Why would a bow-specced character not focus on Str? Dex determines +hit, but high +hit is easily achieved even if Str is your main stat. Which it should be. Dex is tied with Con for importance- Both should be at least 14 base and higher is better.

With a bow no matter what your Str is the +hit still only comes from Dex...I never said a ranged character shouldn't invest in Str however it is obviously more difficult to invest in 2 stats than it is in 1 and a bow user will have a significantly lower Str as a result.

2-Crit range is a strong point against bow users. As is Crit modifier.

3-Most speed boosts work on bows, at a lower amount than they should. That is part of the DPS problem(please note that my argument is the 'Damage' part of DPS is fine. The 'Per Second' part is what is the issue).

Rangers do not have any speed boost to compare with a Fighter Haste boost at all.

4-Weapon specialization works on bows.

Yes the feats do but I was refering to the Kensai enhancements for weapons. Just because a Kensai Bow user can be made doesn't mean it should be. Khopesh is by far a better choice every time.

5-Damage boost work on bows.

6-Sneak attack damage, +hit, enhancements, etc work on bows.

7-Vicious does NOT work on bows. Another point against them.

8-Though there are several specific items that dont apply for ranged weapons, there aren't too many. Please list a few important endgear ones you know dont apply.

Contradict yourself much?

So...go on. Tell me how you just know that the damage from bows is lacking.

To answer your final question. Any moderately geared melee using khopesh will out DPS any equally geared ranger. The average base damage for just weapons, i.e. Long Bow vs Khopesh, on a character that has equal Str for illustrative purposes already has the bow behind.

Instead of being a smartass using italics how about you show me a way for a ranger to attain the same Str mod for damage as a normal melee character while maintaining a acceptable +hit bonus.

[FooWonk]

Aside from bugs with crossbows & repeaters, ranged combat is rather balanced.

If you want higher DPS for ranged combat, there has to be some consequence to balance the benefit. Melee take severe beatings. Casters, the king of ranged combat and kiting, have to work harder to achieve decent HP and have to manage limited resources (even though it's mostly a joke for a skilled player).

Hacking up many-shot doesn't solve a problem, but adds several. Overall, OP's suggestions would allow a capped, strength-based, 20-ranger, AA to out-DPS a frenzied barbarian. For the barbarian to reach that DPS level, they damage themselves with every hit and are always in melee range of what they're hitting. The archer can stand right behind the barbarian and come away with not even a scratch. THIS IS NOT BALANCED.

And like other people have mentioned, kiting with many-shot actually has valuable benefits in solo and party play. I admit that and I am a hater of habitual kiters who will kick folks from groups when they show up at the quest with just a bow.

[Aesop]

As far as I can tell the biggest problem for Ranged Combat is Reload Speed.

a Ranged attack is broken down into two actions. The Attack Action and the Reload Action.

Speed Buffs to attack rate only appear to affect the Attack Action. This would explain why the Ranger Capstone appears to only improve RoA by 12% or so.

What would be nice is if they would reduce the reload time by about 30-40%. This would give the appearance of speeding up Ranged Attacks by 15-20%.

After that they could rework some of the effects somewhat.

They once said the speed of combat often cause some issues and occasionally lead to missed attacks and some lag...so instead of Rapid Shot improving Attack Rate just apply a Double Shot effect similar to Double Strike. Ranger Capstone could apply the same thing.

Rapid Shot could grant a 10% chance to fire an additional arrow (almost like a mini Many Shot); to keep it in balance it wouldn't stack with Many Shot.

Many Shot itself may cause problem and the devs would have to weigh the effectiveness of Many Shot against the increased overall DPS. Personally I'd like to see Many Shot treated more like a Paladins Smites in that there would be multiple uses and individual recharge timers and a cooldown. Perhaps they'd reduce an individual Many Shot down to 10 sec but by BAB 16 you have 3 uses. This would still give some Burst DPS but a little more flexibility on usage. These uses would recharge over a period of time like a Smite Evil attempt.

Improved Precise Shot could be come mutually exclusive with Many Shot so that you'd use Many Hot when a single enemy needed to die and use IPS when multiple enemies taking damage would better serve your cause. I'm not sure that's a great solution but it would make a little sense I guess.

Melee has 2 granted tactical feats trip and sunder. I've been preaching about Ranged needing one for years. My choice is Ranged Pin. Acts like a single target web effect.


It is also possible to make the feat Improved Rapid Shot available. This would improve Double Shot chances just like Rapid Shot.


My take on Deep Woods Sniper.

Tier 1
1. +1 Hide, Move Silently Spot
2. +3 to Confirm and Damage on critical hits (similar to Seeker effects)
3. +1d4 Precision Damage
4. Snipers Aim: (use activated, 15sec cooldown) +4 to hit, +2d6 to damage, ignore 10% Fortification and Concealment.

Tier 2
1. +2 Hide, Move Silently, Spot (total)
2. Expanded Critical Multiplier +1
3. +2d4 Precision Damage
4. Sniper's Aim 2: (use activated, 15sec cooldown) +7 to hit, +5d6 to damage, ignore 25% Fortification and Concealment.

Tier 3
1. +3 Hide, Move Silently, Spot (total)
2. Expanded Critical Range +1
3. Deadly Precision: On Confirmed Critical target takes an additional 20d6 damage
4. Sniper's Aim 3: (use activated, 15sec cooldown) +10 to hit, +10d6 to damage, ignore 50% Fortification and Concealment.


or something like that

Aesop

[Doxmaster]

With a bow no matter what your Str is the +hit still only comes from Dex...I never said a ranged character shouldn't invest in Str however it is obviously more difficult to invest in 2 stats than it is in 1 and a bow user will have a significantly lower Str as a result.
Rangers do not have any speed boost to compare with a Fighter Haste boost at all.
Yes the feats do but I was refering to the Kensai enhancements for weapons. Just because a Kensai Bow user can be made doesn't mean it should be. Khopesh is by far a better choice every time.

8-Though there are several specific items that dont apply for ranged weapons, there aren't too many. Please list a few important endgear ones you know dont apply.

Contradict yourself much?

That was a rather inconvenient format for your response.
-----
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=204445
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=204864
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=222343
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168687
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=298161
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172630

1-There are a few builds above, most of which are ranged characters and a few of which are melee characters. Notice how the base str and base dex of the ranged ones are typically 15/16+. This puts them well within the range of a melee build that starts with maxed strength.

I have not personally built a ranged or melee toon that has achieved absolute and total endgame-gearing, so I cannot personally tell you what sustained str would be for a pure melee toon compared to str/dex for a melee/ranged toon, so I will have to refer you to these builds and threads above.

2-Rangers do not get a speed boost, excluding their capstone which only provides half of its benefit (once against ‘Per second’ is the problem). However most ranged builds include fighter/rogue levels which would provide said boost. Oddly enough, the highest DPS ranged characters are typically not pure rangers, nor do they have a majority of ranger levels as shown by the builds above.

3- Khopeshes have the highest DPS of any standard weapon on a single target. ANY standard weapon. The highest damage weapon in the game is the ESoS, if memory serves. Comparing any bow to what is outright better than even other melee options isn’t a fair comparison as there is no possibility of an equivalent weapon. If the best weapons possibleare fair game, then assuming the bow-user is attacking 2+ opponents at a time should also be fair game.

4-That was not a contradiction. There are a few specific items that do not work with ranged, but there are not many of them. Perhaps 10 out of all the items in DDo (not counting normal-to-epic upgraded items as separate items). Please list any items you know are important to a high-power melee toon that do not work for a ranged toon.

[Aesop]

OH another thing


Smite can't be used at range... I'd like it to be ... at least for the Silver Flame Faith Line

Monks with Zen Archery (or using Shuriken) should gain Ki and have access to either the Elemental lines or have the lines have ranged equivalent (or at least close)

[Scrootaype]

To answer your final question. Any moderately geared melee using khopesh will out DPS any equally geared ranger. The average base damage for just weapons, i.e. Long Bow vs Khopesh, on a character that has equal Str for illustrative purposes already has the bow behind.

Instead of being a smartass using italics how about you show me a way for a ranger to attain the same Str mod for damage as a normal melee character while maintaining a acceptable +hit bonus.

So Quell, you're slashing away at the sahuagin in eDeeps with your lightII khopeshes and you're watching all of the numbers fly into the sky... do you ever notice a 500 or a 750 popping up at the end of the numbers occasionally with a critical hit? Not the lightning strike.. no, this is different.

That's a slayer arrow, and it's the dps equalizer for the arcane archer... and frequently it more than equalizes the dps. So if you want to read labels on weapons, yeah that's easy. K has x3 19-20, LB has x3 20. But during multishot, I'm popping four hits to your two AND lighting up the 500s and 750s with slayers that no mob or boss in the game has DR against... those same 500s and 750s you don't get to see holding khopeshes, no matter how much faster you swing them.

And with that, 20 secs is more than enough time to pull aggro... Suulo, the Judge, Harry, you name it, an AA has done it or has been blamed for pulling the boss off the tank with multishot.. like I was in a ToD run just a few days ago at the Horoth battle... but not guilty in that case, nor in a while. Because, getting back to my original point, pulling aggro, which the AA/ranger can do, is punished bc of the ranger's relative lack of durability and her typical location outside of the melee range of mass heals. Multishot is to be used carefully during the sequence of any particular boss fight.

My original point, and consistent point, is that the problem with rangers isn't dps, it's the durability/dps imbalance. Some form of hit that acts as crowd control besides a paralyzer? Maybe. I still prefer the idea of empowered healing at some ranger level.. would make the ranger multiclassing more interesting as well.

Truthfully, if the devs want to do real soul searching, the problem with the ranger class is the very fact many classes can be arcane archers via an elf race selection and the appropriate requisite feat. The Ranger class is, thus, less compelling as a result. Why buy the cow when you can have the milk for free.. so to speak.

[Sequell]

So Quell, you're slashing away at the sahuagin in eDeeps with your lightII khopeshes and you're watching all of the numbers fly into the sky... do you ever notice a 500 or a 750 popping up at the end of the numbers occasionally with a critical hit? Not the lightning strike.. no, this is different.

That's a slayer arrow, and it's the dps equalizer for the arcane archer... and frequently it more than equalizes the dps. So if you want to read labels on weapons, yeah that's easy. K has x3 19-20, LB has x3 20. But during multishot, I'm popping four hits to your two AND lighting up the 500s and 750s with slayers that no mob or boss in the game has DR against... those same 500s and 750s you don't get to see holding khopeshes, no matter how much faster you swing them.

And with that, 20 secs is more than enough time to pull aggro... Suulo, the Judge, Harry, you name it, an AA has done it or has been blamed for pulling the boss off the tank with multishot.. like I was in a ToD run just a few days ago at the Horoth battle... but not guilty in that case, nor in a while. Because, getting back to my original point, pulling aggro, which the AA/ranger can do, is punished bc of the ranger's relative lack of durability and her typical location outside of the melee range of mass heals. Multishot is to be used carefully during the sequence of any particular boss fight.

My original point, and consistent point, is that the problem with rangers isn't dps, it's the durability/dps imbalance. Some form of hit that acts as crowd control besides a paralyzer? Maybe. I still prefer the idea of empowered healing at some ranger level.. would make the ranger multiclassing more interesting as well.

Truthfully, if the devs want to do real soul searching, the problem with the ranger class is the very fact many classes can be arcane archers via an elf race selection and the appropriate requisite feat. The Ranger class is, thus, less compelling as a result. Why buy the cow when you can have the milk for free.. so to speak.

I can appreciate your burst type DPS with manyshot activated, and I do not dispute that there are some high numbers from that from arrow procs.

However you aren't going to catch up to a moderately geared DPS tank with the 20sec timer you get with manyshot. The only way you would pull aggro is if you did it at the beginning of the fight to early before the tank has established proper aggro and that is a new player mistake that happens sometimes.

Furthermore I usually tank the Jailor in ToD solo on my Sorc normally to less than half or more before the party finishes the Judge and I would wager my whole Large Ingredient bag that aggro wouldn't be pulled from me by any ranged ranger.

I still disagee that DPS isn't the problem. Durability isn't an issue on any class character unless there are serious build flaws and or lack of gear and experience. I don't see where a 500hp character of any class has any durability problems and that is well within reach on any class character.

[Antheal]

OH another thing


Smite can't be used at range... I'd like it to be ... at least for the Silver Flame Faith Line

Monks with Zen Archery (or using Shuriken) should gain Ki and have access to either the Elemental lines or have the lines have ranged equivalent (or at least close)

I'd like it if Zen Archery could be used to make Wisdom a pre-req for things like Manyshot and Precise Shot instead of Dexterity.

What's the point in having Zen Archery on your monk if you still need to invest in Dexterity anyway to to make your Ranged combat worth bothering with?

[Failedlegend]

I'd like it if Zen Archery could be used to make Wisdom a pre-req for things like Manyshot and Precise Shot instead of Dexterity.

What's the point in having Zen Archery on your monk if you still need to invest in Dexterity anyway to to make your Ranged combat worth bothering with?

Agreed.

It should also work for all non-thrown ranged weapons (maybe shurikens)...there no reason to be limited to bows.

[Aesop]

I'd like it if Zen Archery could be used to make Wisdom a pre-req for things like Manyshot and Precise Shot instead of Dexterity.

What's the point in having Zen Archery on your monk if you still need to invest in Dexterity anyway to to make your Ranged combat worth bothering with?

Good Point. similarly why are DCs for tactics based off of Strength when you have Weapon Finesse?

[Talias006]

Good Point. similarly why are DCs for tactics based off of Strength when you have Weapon Finesse?

Is Trip and Improved Trip based on Str? If so, that seems a little out of whack to me. Should be Dex IMHO.

[dodger72]

some great ideas, only i would also add this:

Headshot: Weapon enhancement - Prefix

effect: A ranged weapon with this enhancement can instantly kill most kinds of creatures. On an attack roll of a natural 20 which is also confirmed as a critical hit, and if the enemy has 1000 or fewer HP, your projectile pierces the head of the enemy, killing it instantly.

There's no special animation shown on a successful vorpal. Aside from a blueish coloration that appears, the monster simply dies.

If the enemy has more than 1000 HP, or is otherwise immune to instant kills (e.g., red- or purple-named enemies) they instead take 100 points of bane damage.

(note, this is IDENTICAL to Vorpal, just a ranged version)

^^ I like....very good idea.

[fco-karatekid]

Rate of fire is the only big issue.

Its less than half that of a melee who can use PA to amp up their damage.

Increasing rate of fire is a must-do, as is the repair of repeater mechanics (since they're just flat broke).

While I play a realtively squishy AA, this will be a bit self-defeating; but I don't think hugenormous complex changes are necessary, as I believe was the point of this and several other posts so far.

If we have to have another special attack, though; I think a multi-shot option wherein with one attack, the archer strikes each foe in range a single time would be a nice to have.

Paralyzers (even though the monster can save) MIGHT become insanely overpowered, meaning this should also be on a 20 sec/2 minute timer; but I don't think it should share same timer as the manyshot.

Ranger lvl 12 or 13 sounds right for this as an enhancement; and a minimum DEX score should be a prereq... though I don't know what that score should be.

[fco-karatekid]

Wrong !

Ranged DPS without manyshot is terrible because of the slow rate of fire. A melee ranger and a bow ranger may do equal damage per attack, assuming equal gear of course, but the bow ranger is attacking once per second and the melee is attacking twice per second. That is why ranged DPS is lower without manyshot- you're hitting for 100 per attack just like all the other guys, but everyone else hits twice as many times as you, if not more.

If you have any numbers, data, graphs, etc, please come forth with them to prove me wrong.

I know you're conceding the point of equal damage per individual attack just to make a point; but when I switch from ranged to melee on my AA, I immediately notice the difference - ranged damage per hit is anywhere from .3 to _maybe_ .5 of my TWF attacks (not counting vorps and crits) - and she's supposedly specialized for ranged over melee.

I just wanted to get that out there in case someone takes the "... may do equal damage per attack..." as "... _definitely_ do equal damage per attack..." They don't.

What's more appropriate? I'm thinking a range of .5 to .7 of a comparably-equipped melee.

[Doxmaster]

I know you're conceding the point of equal damage per individual attack just to make a point; but when I switch from ranged to melee on my AA, I immediately notice the difference - ranged damage per hit is anywhere from .3 to _maybe_ .5 of my TWF attacks (not counting vorps and crits) - and she's supposedly specialized for ranged over melee.

I just wanted to get that out there in case someone takes the "... may do equal damage per attack..." as "... _definitely_ do equal damage per attack..." They don't.

What's more appropriate? I'm thinking a range of .5 to .7 of a comparably-equipped melee.

My first question would be: how are both toons built? What is their stat layout, feat list, item setup, etc. Discounting Power attack, a ranged character should typically be doing the same amount of damage on non-crits when using comparable weapons.

What weapons are you using? Would it be possible for you to grab a +1 longbow and a +1 longsword on both characters and smack a training dummy around a bit?

[Talon_Moonshadow]

The only change I think they need to make is to speed it up! reload speed mostly.

Speed it up for everyone! And ranged specced guys will profit too.


Question is....how much? But with the huge boost they gave casters I think they could double or triple ranged speed and it wouldn't make it overpowered in comparison.

Although I think start with reducing reload speed by 50%. And seeing how that goes.

[Raithe]

Aside from bugs with crossbows & repeaters, ranged combat is rather balanced.

If you want higher DPS for ranged combat, there has to be some consequence to balance the benefit. Melee take severe beatings. Casters, the king of ranged combat and kiting, have to work harder to achieve decent HP and have to manage limited resources (even though it's mostly a joke for a skilled player).

Hacking up many-shot doesn't solve a problem, but adds several. Overall, OP's suggestions would allow a capped, strength-based, 20-ranger, AA to out-DPS a frenzied barbarian. For the barbarian to reach that DPS level, they damage themselves with every hit and are always in melee range of what they're hitting. The archer can stand right behind the barbarian and come away with not even a scratch. THIS IS NOT BALANCED.

And like other people have mentioned, kiting with many-shot actually has valuable benefits in solo and party play. I admit that and I am a hater of habitual kiters who will kick folks from groups when they show up at the quest with just a bow.

I'm quoting the ranged hater because he is being more level-headed than the rest of this thread.

My suggestions for ranged combat:

1) Keep ranged alacrity as it is.
2) Drop manyshot to 2 arrows at BAB 6 and 3 arrows at BAB 16
3) Change slayer arrows from doing 500 damage on 20s to doing 4d6 damage on every hit (like disruption/banishing/smiting) and then 12d6 on any crit (= 16-19 damage per hit)
4) Change the label for the ranger capstone so that it accurately reflects the true increase in alacrity
5) Make sure that the same issues with physics hits and lost attacks that apply to spells and melee are not nullified by changes to ranged attacks.

This is not an auto-attack ranged pew-pew game. In similar MMO games to DDO, the bow has to be targetted manually (unless you are using hacks) and lost shots are chalked up to player skill. I believe DDO was initially calibrated for such a combat system.

[Thrudh]

My suggestions for ranged combat:

1) Keep ranged alacrity as it is.
2) Drop manyshot to 2 arrows at BAB 6 and 3 arrows at BAB 16
3) Change slayer arrows from doing 500 damage on 20s to doing 4d6 damage on every hit (like disruption/banishing/smiting) and then 12d6 on any crit (= 16-19 damage per hit)
4) Change the label for the ranger capstone so that it accurately reflects the true increase in alacrity
5) Make sure that the same issues with physics hits and lost attacks that apply to spells and melee are not nullified by changes to ranged attacks.

(2) and (3) make archery do less DPS. (1), (4), and (5) are not changes.

I guess I'm missing the context here... Are you trying to balance out the OP's suggested upgrades? Your post is a little confusing.

[Thrudh]

1: Ranged DPS is nowhere even close to melee damage, not even close. No matter what gear you have there is no way to get your base damge even close to what a melee can achieve. Then there is the attack speed that widens the gap even more.

If I only do 60% of your DPS, but I hit 2 critters with each shot and you only hit one, who is doing more DPS?

2: Manyshot as is is nice burst damage but any moderately geared hate-tank is going to maintain aggro over any well geared ranger with no problems at all even thru the manyshots active timer. It just isn't correct to say that a ranger with manyshot can pull aggro from a raid boss lol!

Only if you give the tank time to establish aggro... If they both start at the same time, the manyshot character will ALWAYS take aggro... Therefore the archer does more DPS than any tank for those 20 seconds.

I have been here since the beginning and I have NEVER heard anyone say "Man that ranged ranger has some nice DPS!" LOL!

You don't play with good ranged characters...

I like clearing the corridor in Rainbow in the Dark full of elementals using Improved Precise Shot, Manyshot, and a Banishing Bow... I HAVE heard people say "Did you just clear that entire corridor in ten seconds?"

No melee has ever been asked that question.