elves as palemasters

[badger2]

Just a quick question:
Is the elven aracnum (spelling?) enhancement worth concidering making an elven palemaster? Seems it should help with save or die spells and the extra spell points are always nice.
I have drow and 32 pont build if that makes a difference to the argument.

I am aware of the argument for human being the strongest choice for a palemaster, (Humans seem to be the strongest choice for just about anything), but I dont like playing a human.....

[varusso]

Just a quick question:
Is the elven aracnum (spelling?) enhancement worth concidering making an elven palemaster? Seems it should help with save or die spells and the extra spell points are always nice.
I have drow and 32 pont build if that makes a difference to the argument.

I am aware of the argument for human being the strongest choice for a palemaster, (Humans seem to be the strongest choice for just about anything), but I dont like playing a human.....

I am currently running up an Elven PM. The Elven Arcanum is a nice little bonus. It also gives extra SP (80 total). If you get all 4 enhancements, you get the equivalent of 2 feats worth of spell penetration. So basically you get one MORE feat than human, as long as your build can afford the enhancements. You can either take the spell pen feats AND the enhancements (resulting in a much higher spell pen) OR you can drop the 2 feats and spend them elsewhere, while having the SAME spell pen as the human. At that point the only thing you are really giving up is HP. Both Drow and Elf suffer the same HP penalty, and a Drow is perfectly viable even at end-game.

You get alot of choices with an elf, just depends on what you want to do.

[LeLoric]

Elves aren't horrible as they are able to hit high spell pen levels and palemasters require very high spell pen due to instakill spells and even your best single target dps spell necrotic ray requires a spell pen check.

I would say it's most viable as a first life palemaster due to spell pen being much higher to reach high levels without past life feats factored in. The extra sp helps too for a low geared wizard.

That being said elves fall below drow by 1 dc all the time and humans and half-elves most of the time also due to lower maximum possible int. All the spell pen in the world won't help if you aren't landing your spells. Most mobs that have pretty high spell pen are gonna push your dc's pretty hard too (devils and reavers).

I would actually rank the races as follows.

Human
Drow
Elf
Half-Elf
Warforged
Dwarf
Halfling
Half-orc

The reason I have elf above half-elf is due to human having most everything a half-elf has that's relevant and an extra feat.

[Monkey_Archer]

That being said elves fall below drow by 1 dc all the time and humans and half-elves most of the time also due to lower maximum possible int. All the spell pen in the world won't help if you aren't landing your spells. Most mobs that have pretty high spell pen are gonna push your dc's pretty hard too (devils and reavers).

All the DC in the world won't help if you can't bypass spell resistance either.
On average, 1 spell pen is equal to 1 DC in terms of landing spells on any target with meaningful spell resistance. (DCs are more important for spells with recurring saves, like holds, which will roll DC checks multiple times but only roll 1 spell pen check.)

Elves will always perform better on any target with meaningful spell resistance when using single save spells like instakills. I agree with your ranking for generalist or enchantment archmage wizards for the most part, but for a palemaster I tend to think that elves deserve the top spot, at least until you have multiple wizard past lives.

[Emili]

Elves aren't horrible as they are able to hit high spell pen levels and palemasters require very high spell pen due to instakill spells and even your best single target dps spell necrotic ray requires a spell pen check.

I would say it's most viable as a first life palemaster due to spell pen being much higher to reach high levels without past life feats factored in. The extra sp helps too for a low geared wizard.

That being said elves fall below drow by 1 dc all the time and humans and half-elves most of the time also due to lower maximum possible int. All the spell pen in the world won't help if you aren't landing your spells. Most mobs that have pretty high spell pen are gonna push your dc's pretty hard too (devils and reavers).

I would actually rank the races as follows.

Human
Drow
Elf
Half-Elf
Warforged
Dwarf
Halfling
Half-orc

The reason I have elf above half-elf is due to human having most everything a half-elf has that's relevant and an extra feat.

What he said... My sgail is an elf first life - always has been - elf arcanum and 42dc in necro but that's yugo'd and lich mode normal running mode, I can tweak +1 more out of her with an item but do not usually do so. Spell pen to be honest I yet to see even any epic mob show the icon for and am thinking of swaping out greater spell pen to free up a feat to gain that back.

[LeLoric]

All the DC in the world won't help if you can't bypass spell resistance either.
On average, 1 spell pen is equal to 1 DC in terms of landing spells on any target with meaningful spell resistance. (DCs are more important for spells with recurring saves, like holds, which will roll DC checks multiple times but only roll 1 spell pen check.)

Elves will always perform better on any target with meaningful spell resistance when using single save spells like instakills. I agree with your ranking for generalist or enchantment archmage wizards for the most part, but for a palemaster I tend to think that elves deserve the top spot, at least until you have multiple wizard past lives.

You can still get a first life non-elf to meaningful spell pen levels to where only very few epic mobs resist it and at that point elf's advantage is lost. As I said before I think elf is a good choice for first life. My ranking would be horrible for generalist or enchantment archmagi. WF would be first here, followed by human. Elf and drow significantly less powerful because of hit point values.

[Monkey_Archer]

You can still get a first life non-elf to meaningful spell pen levels to where only very few epic mobs resist it and at that point elf's advantage is lost. As I said before I think elf is a good choice for first life. My ranking would be horrible for generalist or enchantment archmagi. WF would be first here, followed by human. Elf and drow significantly less powerful because of hit point values.

Even an elf with 3 wizard past lives and both feats can't completely bypass epic drow SR. Non-elf first life casters will still fail sometimes in non epic quests like amrath, and frequently in most epic quests vs devils, drow, priests that cast spell resistance, tieflings, etc...
I guess it depends which quests you run frequently, but i find that most targets without spell resistance are, on average, less dangerous then the ones with spell resistance.

I personally prefer human casters as well (survivability+feats > minor casting advantage), but IMO drow just cant compete with elves. 1 DC compared to 4 spell pen, extra sp and extra build points is a no brainer.

[DDOisFree]

The reason I have elf above half-elf is due to human having most everything a half-elf has that's relevant and an extra feat.

I'd personally rate Half Elves second because they gain an extra +1 con and +20 HP all for 5 AP which more than makes up for the lost feat, plus they still have access to human adaptability.

The elven arcanum thing is new to me, I never noticed that before, but I dont know if its worth having it for the reduced HP.

[rest]

My current PM is a human, but I'm eyeing a TR as an elf simply for the extra spell pen + spell points I can get from the arcanum.

Ideally, I'd do 3 more wiz lives to max out my past life wiz spell pen.

[LeLoric]

I'd personally rate Half Elves second because they gain an extra +1 con and +20 HP all for 5 AP which more than makes up for the lost feat, plus they still have access to human adaptability.

The elven arcanum thing is new to me, I never noticed that before, but I dont know if its worth having it for the reduced HP.

The hp are really inconsequential. I don't take any toughness enhancements and would drop the feat if it wasn't a lich form requirement. There is no replacement for that loss of feat and I couldn't make any of my desired builds work without it. Those 5 ap are far more important to me.

[badger2]

Thank you everyone for the well balanced replies. As a first lifer I think I will give elf a go then.

[Calebro]

Thank you everyone for the well balanced replies. As a first lifer I think I will give elf a go then.

Depending on your build:
12 Con = bare minimum
14 Con = recommended
16 Con= if you have nothing better to spend the starting points on

[LeLoric]

Even an elf with 3 wizard past lives and both feats can't completely bypass epic drow SR. Non-elf first life casters will still fail sometimes in non epic quests like amrath, and frequently in most epic quests vs devils, drow, priests that cast spell resistance, tieflings, etc...
I guess it depends which quests you run frequently, but i find that most targets without spell resistance are, on average, less dangerous then the ones with spell resistance.

I personally prefer human casters as well (survivability+feats > minor casting advantage), but IMO drow just cant compete with elves. 1 DC compared to 4 spell pen, extra sp and extra build points is a no brainer.

Building to hit epic drow sr is a really bad idea. It's kinda like building a rog with skills to hit elite cabal trap. It's just not beneficial to build that high in spell pen for one mob in the game. Just web and nuke the drow or web and let the melees take em down.

A 30 will cover you for no fail against almost any non-drow epic mob. That's 20 level, 3 item, 4 feat, 3 enh. Tieflings have no considerable spell resistance I can take all my spell pen gear off and still never fail with a 26. Devils are found in two epic quests. Reavers are high but they are in only a couple quests too and pretty sparse in those. Both of those will require a 32 for no fail. Sure an elf could cover that first life but being only 2 short on a drow but one higher dc is more than adequate.

Unless you are strictly running chrono and EDA I find an elf pretty lacking in epics. In non epic high end content like amrath they shine as the devil sr is just as high as epic devils and theres lots more of them about. That's why I say elf is really strong first life but any subsequent lives is really lacking as getting above 30 spell pen is really a large diminishing return whereas the extra dc from other races is not.

[danlan]

Building to hit epic drow sr is a really bad idea. It's kinda like building a rog with skills to hit elite cabal trap. It's just not beneficial to build that high in spell pen for one mob in the game. Just web and nuke the drow or web and let the melees take em down.

A 30 will cover you for no fail against almost any non-drow epic mob. That's 20 level, 3 item, 4 feat, 3 enh. Tieflings have no considerable spell resistance I can take all my spell pen gear off and still never fail with a 26. Devils are found in two epic quests. Reavers are high but they are in only a couple quests too and pretty sparse in those. Both of those will require a 32 for no fail. Sure an elf could cover that first life but being only 2 short on a drow but one higher dc is more than adequate.

Unless you are strictly running chrono and EDA I find an elf pretty lacking in epics. In non epic high end content like amrath they shine as the devil sr is just as high as epic devils and theres lots more of them about. That's why I say elf is really strong first life but any subsequent lives is really lacking as getting above 30 spell pen is really a large diminishing return whereas the extra dc from other races is not.

Very authetic and true.

[Viisari]

What he said... My sgail is an elf first life - always has been - elf arcanum and 42dc in necro but that's yugo'd and lich mode normal running mode, I can tweak +1 more out of her with an item but do not usually do so. Spell pen to be honest I yet to see even any epic mob show the icon for and am thinking of swaping out greater spell pen to free up a feat to gain that back.

You've never ran into epic drow then.

Abishais in echrono also have a rather high spell res, they still resist energy drain from time to time with spell pen of 28.

<edit> Also I would't exactly call going for max spell pen because of epic drows a bad idea, takes a lot of effort, but if you run von3 and tides chain a lot it can be worth it imo. Since in the end you don't exactly have to gimp yourself for it, you might aswell go for it if you find them drows as annoying as I do. Takes lots of past lives though.

[soulaeon]

This enhancement line is probably not worth being the only reason to be an Elf. Drow (easy to obtain for free) or human would be a better choice if you are interested in many benefits.

[Monkey_Archer]

Building to hit epic drow sr is a really bad idea. It's kinda like building a rog with skills to hit elite cabal trap. It's just not beneficial to build that high in spell pen for one mob in the game. Just web and nuke the drow or web and let the melees take em down.

A 30 will cover you for no fail against almost any non-drow epic mob. That's 20 level, 3 item, 4 feat, 3 enh. Tieflings have no considerable spell resistance I can take all my spell pen gear off and still never fail with a 26. Devils are found in two epic quests. Reavers are high but they are in only a couple quests too and pretty sparse in those. Both of those will require a 32 for no fail. Sure an elf could cover that first life but being only 2 short on a drow but one higher dc is more than adequate.

Unless you are strictly running chrono and EDA I find an elf pretty lacking in epics. In non epic high end content like amrath they shine as the devil sr is just as high as epic devils and theres lots more of them about. That's why I say elf is really strong first life but any subsequent lives is really lacking as getting above 30 spell pen is really a large diminishing return whereas the extra dc from other races is not.

Oh i agree that building to hit drow SR is a usually a very bad idea... but it would make drow heavy quests extremely easy...
The most compelling argument for elves though is not that they can get insanely high spell pen, but rather that they can get spell pen cheap. Arcanum means you can free up 2 feats, giving them a 1 feat advantage over human.

I play a 0 toughness human archmage with 40 UMD, so the healing amp and extra con is much more important to me then spell pen is...
A palemaster though will have toughness, hp bonuses + form, and has (almost) no need for healing amp, so the advantage to going human is basically only +1 int and a few skill points. I tend to think that a feat (or +2 spell pen) is worth more then 1 intel point, but i guess that depends on the build, tomes, etc....

[DDOisFree]

Abishais in echrono also have a rather high spell res, they still resist energy drain from time to time with spell pen of 28.

They arent too high, I havnt seen them resist anything with a spell pen of 30 and manage to hold or dance them easilly before they can get much damage done.

Bazdor on the other hand resists pretty frequently.

[Viisari]

They arent too high, I havnt seen them resist anything with a spell pen of 30 and manage to hold or dance them easilly before they can get much damage done.

Bazdor on the other hand resists pretty frequently.

Funny, it's usually the otherway around for me. Could also be because I always pay special attention to abishai (since they can wipe the whole party in a couple of seconds if people are not careful) and just set down a web or few for beards and then ignore them and go kill some thieflings. And usually when I do use hold on beards it lands very well on them.

[cave_diver]

Interesting discussion, I am in the process of playing with a build for a 36 (past life FVS & WIZ) point palemaster using either Human or Elf.

Having the passive past lives will give me +3 to my spell pen already, and Arcane initiate will add +1 to my DC's across the board. This leads to a lot of flexibility with both Human or Elf build, in my case I am leaning probably toward human for the extra Hp's, feats, human adaptability but still have that urge to try Elf for that awesome Spell Pen for instakills. I still plan on Tr'ing this toon again (eventually) so either way Human or Elf, it can all be fixed