I cant stand half-orcs.

[maddmatt70]

I am not sure if a nerf or multitude of buffs is more appropriate in this case. All races with real racial weapons (dwarf, drow and elf) could receive a slight bump in those racial weaopns and several racial prestige enhancements could be released such as dwarven defender, drow scorpion, juggernaut, and dragonmarks (useful for halfling and human). The half-elve and half-orc races would receive none of these bumps and all would be more balanced again in the DDO world. I think that would work.

[eulogy098]

I am not sure if a nerf or multitude of buffs is more appropriate in this case. All races with real racial weapons (dwarf, drow and elf) could receive a slight bump in those racial weaopns and several racial prestige enhancements could be released such as dwarven defender, drow scorpion, juggernaut, and dragonmarks (useful for halfling and human). The half-elve and half-orc races would receive none of these bumps and all would be more balanced again in the DDO world. I think that would work.

When a player on a sport team is caught using performance enhancing drugs, do you even out the game by giving everyone steroids, thus completely skewing the game as a whole, or do you just square away that one player?

[grodon9999]

When a player on a sport team is caught using performance enhancing drugs, do you even out the game by giving take him doweveryone steroids, thus completely skewing the game as a whole, or do you just square away that one player?

There would be such a massive uproar if they nerfed horcs that it won't happen. it's a pay-to-win race, people payed real money for this cheese.

Upping the other races with enhancement reform and racial PREs is a better way to go.

[brian14]

When a player on a sport team is caught using performance enhancing drugs, do you even out the game by giving take him doweveryone steroids, thus completely skewing the game as a whole, or do you just square away that one player?

Off-topic, but personally I think every professional sport should have two leagues -- with and without performance enhancing drugs. Let dopers compete against each other.

[maddmatt70]

When a player on a sport team is caught using performance enhancing drugs, do you even out the game by giving take him doweveryone steroids, thus completely skewing the game as a whole, or do you just square away that one player?

Buffs are generally bad for an mmo, but these seem slight and some were going to come out anyway (racial prestige enhancements). Really only advocating an additional +2 to damage for racial weapons to three races (dwarves, drow, and elves).

[grodon9999]

Buffs are generally bad for an mmo, but these seem slight and some were going to come out anyway (racial prestige enhancements). Really only advocating an additional +2 to damage for racial weapons to three races (dwarves, drow, and elves).

it's not power-creep if all it does is make things closer to even.

[testing1234]

Warfoged have 0 DR, that's not very amazing in my book. They have access to 1 DR for 2 AP, 2 DR for 4 AP and 3 DR for 6 AP and they stack with NOTHING. Noone invests in any of it because only rank 1 is affordable and 1 DR is worthless. (airship buff covers even that much). Again, Warforged do NOT have DR.

when correcting someone it helps if your actually correct in your info

-DR stacking
the dr bonuses stack with adamantin it is one of the reasons FvS WF is popular since they can get 13dr adamantin, the capstone 10dr adamantin.
while not universally useful you into specifically said "stacks with nothing" when there are a significant amount of fvs who builds around the survivability this gives.
-DR equip
they also have access to the DoD and the titan docent clickie which name i do not know for 20 and 30 temporary DR which fleshlings cant get. which all classes can use.

and dr is very useful to have in the endgame.

when Horc first came out i thought oh wow those are overpowered but as time has past ive more and more started to come around to the devs viewpoint.
a gimp is a gimp even if his Horc its down to build and equipment, Horc strong points is just the cream on the top doesnt actually change the nature of the cookie

if you have a amazingly badly equiped dps character then i suppose the Horc might have a big effect on him but his still a gimp, with amazing equip then the Horc doesnt really matter as his already OP.
so from my point of view its a not a important issue from a meta perspective

[Chai]

When a player on a sport team is caught using performance enhancing drugs, do you even out the game by giving everyone steroids, thus completely skewing the game as a whole, or do you just square away that one player?

I would agree with that assessment, if "caught doing steroids" and "doing steroids" were the same thing. How many times have we seen a lanky college draft pick beef up and get all puffy over one off season, and everyone kind of looks the other way? Then they come out and start destroying people on the field / court instead of delivering that above average performance they did a last year. It happens ALOT more than people getting dragged into early retirement for steroid allegations, heh.

The way D&D is balanced, half orcs have significant weaknesses, however the way DDO is balanced, they do not have any weakness that cant be metagamed around and simply ignored. This makes the race ideal for anything that doesnt have a mana bar. Its also a pay to win race, and making a bunch of money on it and then nerfing it would cause riots that would make the U5 melee nerf look like a romantic comedy.

I dont like half orcs either. The THF animation with axes and mauls sucks compared to the other races. They are far bigger than humans and orcs combined. However, having said that, I understand what happened here. Customers were given the opportunity to pay real life money to step up in the strength stat melee power creep that is the basis for building combat effective melee toons in DDO. Take that step up away and people will feel they were duped into paying for nothing.

[maddmatt70]

it's not power-creep if all it does is make things closer to even.

Well the initial buff of H-elves and H-orcs was power creep. In game there are so many folks now that have those races so overall dps has gone up a little which is power creep by definition. A response to that and other buffs for the devs is bumping up red names and trash mobs. The abbot's hp was bumped up last week so what will be next Horath, Sulu, Harry and end bosses in various quests with a 15% increase in mob overall hp. Then people will complain about those mob and boss buffs, but hey they sure did not complain about the buffs that H-elves and H-orcs got haha. Buffs provide a bigger barrior to entry in game for newer players, but I digress.

[eulogy098]

I Customers were given the opportunity to pay real life money to step up in the strength stat melee power creep that is the basis for building combat effective melee toons in DDO. Take that step up away and people will feel they were duped into paying for nothing.

Removing Warforged Power Attack from the Half-Orc enhancement would still leave them as the best Melee race in the game though.

[grodon9999]

Well the initial buff of H-elves and H-orcs was power creep. In game there are so many folks now that have those races so overall dps has gone up a little which is power creep by definition. A response to that and other buffs for the devs is bumping up red names and trash mobs. The abbot's hp was bumped up last week so what will be next Horath, Sulu, Harry and end bosses in various quests with a 15% increase in mob overall hp. Then people will complain about those mob and boss buffs, but hey they sure did not complain about the buffs that H-elves and H-orcs got haha. Buffs provide a bigger barrior to entry in game for newer players, but I digress.

I don't disagree, but is Horc/helf really the issue on a toon with two ToD and Claw sets? The Horc/helf over-poweredness gets watered down by all our over-powered gear.

People react VERY violently to nerfs. I flipped out to a point beyond any reason from the U5 TWFing changes, heck I'm still bitter about that. What we have now is status quo, adjust the other races to meet that.

[Thrudh]

I flipped out to a point beyond any reason from the U5 TWFing changes

Heh, I remember when I used to see your forum name, and say "Oh boy, what's he going to complain about now?"

Now I agree with almost everything you post... Scary...

[grodon9999]

Heh, I remember when I saw your forum name, and said "Oh boy, what's he going to complain about now?"

Now I agree with almost everything you post... Scary...

And I was right back then to dammit!

[Thrudh]

I agree with Matt...

bump up racial damage bonuses, give dwarves and WF more tactic bonuses, release Dwarven Defender and WF Juggarnaut.

Those first two are 30 second changes.

[maddmatt70]

I don't disagree, but is Horc/helf really the issue on a toon with two ToD and Claw sets? The Horc/helf over-poweredness gets watered down by all our over-powered gear.

People react VERY violently to nerfs. I flipped out to a point beyond any reason from the U5 TWFing changes, heck I'm still bitter about that. What we have now is status quo, adjust the other races to meat that.

There are several differences between the claw and tod set and other end game gear and the half-orc and why I would argue the half-orc is more of a problem. First, the half-orc affects new players whereas the end game equipment set does not. You can be a half-orc at level 1, but you can not use the tower set until level 18. Half-orcs affect those level 1-8 new lowby players that want to play their elf or their halfing or their dwarf and for those players a tod set they probably do not even know what that is. Second, the devs have control over gear they can nerf gear much more easily as they did with the epic SOS - they did not have to nerf an entire race. Third, the end game can be segregated from the non end game much more easily (restricts epics to level 20, etc.).

Leadership in anything has to have some well balls to do what is best for things. If they feel they need to nerf something they should nerf it. I do not think half-orc or half-elves need to be nerfed, but I acknowledge that some of the other races should receive a slight bump sooner rather then later. I like the dwarf race quite a bit in game. They look cool and have a nice style in my opinion, but they are dying out.

[Chai]

I agree it is power creep. Dwarf was an excellent choice for barbarian pre hOrc. The damage differences?

3 6 points of str - 4 for race and 2 more for racial power rage.
4 two handed weapons - if dwarves use great ax they get 4 as well.
6 power attack enhancements on a two hander. 3 tiers @ 2X damage.

Lets say 9 points (dwarf is using a great ax, why wouldnt they)

4 Epic claw set gives 4 points per hit.
4 TOD set gives 5 str (3 exceptional + 2 untyped) and 2 damage per hit.

Hi, my wet behind the ears hOrc barbarian who has no epic or TOD gear whatsoever still does 1 more point of damage as the dwarf version who has TOD set and epic claw set. If the dwarf shores up that 1 point of str the TOD set makes odd to an even number by adding a point, they are even with ungeared hOrcs in damage per hit if everything else is equal. /barf.

Not a power creep? LOL. Its a "pay to stay in the game" race.

[Chai]

Removing Warforged Power Attack from the Half-Orc enhancement would still leave them as the best Melee race in the game though.

How many of those customers would have paid the money for hOrc if they would have known about that in the beginning?

I agree hOrc is too big for its britches as a game play issue. As a business / customer relationship issue however....you dont entice alot of people to pay for something with awesome benefits then take a portion of them away afterward and expect everything to be laa dee daa with your customer base.

[TheDjinnFor]

release Dwarven Defender and WF Juggarnaut.

These two will do it for them alone, I think.

If dwarves get a defensive stance that stacks with Barbarian Rage and Kensai Power Surge, as well as maybe some extra inherent DR, even if the defensive stance means they can't move at all except to attack, I think they'll become the ideal hate/AC tank even if behind on DPS to horcs and wf. And of course WF Juggernaut has to get something cool, like it deals 1d8+Str damage to any enemy that attacks it and 1d8+Str damage for moving close to an enemy and standing there every 2 seconds (almost like an extremely limited range AoE DoT centered on the warforged).

Horcs can be max DPS as long as dwarven defenders get the hate/AC tank role and WF juggernauts are ideal for attacking groups of enemies.

[grodon9999]

These two will do it for them alone, I think.

If dwarves get a defensive stance that stacks with Barbarian Rage and Kensai Power Surge, as well as maybe some extra inherent DR, even if the defensive stance means they can't move at all except to attack, I think they'll become the ideal hate/AC tank even if behind on DPS to horcs and wf. And of course WF Juggernaut has to get something cool, like it deals 1d8+Str damage to any enemy that attacks it and 1d8+Str damage for moving close to an enemy and standing there every 2 seconds (almost like an extremely limited range AoE DoT centered on the warforged).

Horcs can be max DPS as long as dwarven defenders get the hate/AC tank role and WF juggernauts are ideal for attacking groups of enemies.

it won't quite work that way, stance dismisses rage and you won't be able to take it and kensai at the same time (it's like Arcane arccher) but you'll be able to take a Tier III defender stance on either a deep-splashed fighter or something else that'll be wonderful.

The racial weapons need some big time love, the existence of Khopesh makes a +6 damage bonus (no, I'm not kidding) not unreasonable.

[count_spicoli]

half orc is fine. A race needed to be added that gave bonuses to str. I think alot of you people are forgetting that half orcs dont get any of the survivability that other races get. No spell restistances, no xtra skill points, healing amp, less hp. I have a 20human fighter and he is more survivable than my half orc 12ftr/7 barb. after all he gets human versatility that adds plus 5 to saves, is better suited for 2 weapon fighting(Half orc have to go thf) which in turn gives higher reflex saves gets more hp with xtra feat for toughness and more racial toughness. he doesnt kill as fast and cant use tactics like stun and trip as well but def more survivable. I would agree that other races need upgrades like better tactics for dwarfs and some awesome bow enhancements for elf but NO NERFING! Love my half orc but doesnt mean i ll never play a dwarf or human again. If anything is overpowered its a warforge wizard. Most ridiculous race class combo in game.