Zen Archer = Yes

[Zerenety]

* This Post is now Updated! You can now read through only this post, and see if you have anything you would like to comment on!
If you want more insight in how I came across the ideas, you are more than welcome to read through all the post below throughout almost the whole page 2!
I will make it clear for you readers for when I decided to update this thread in the post at page 2! My To-Date questions will be located under that initial post!
Thank you *




Yes. (This is NOT Focused on Epic Content!)

I am soon to become a VIP here on DDO-Land, and figured I wanted something else than Kensai for my Capped AA Ranger. Seeing that VIP allows both Monk and Half Elf, I figured I'll give it s shot.

BUT! I really have little to NO experience with the Monk class.

The Zen Archer gives something I'll allways wanted. GOOD SAVES (I'm looking at you Will-Save!). IMPROVED EVASION. ABUNDANT STEP. AWSOME FLOATING/DROPPING ANIMATION. DILLY FEAT. HUMAN ADAPTABILITY. EARTH II STANCE.

A very good Self-Sufficient build all in all, with good HPs and saves!

But what a Kensai do much better than a Zen Archer, is doing better overall damage, also while beeing FAR AWAY!
The Zen Archer must close to gap to activate Ninja Spy, though a Zen Archer has a really good movement ability.

The Kensai also has a better Melee option with more feats.
With 2 Fighter lvls, I can snatch the essentials for my melee capability No need for Power Attack on this build anyway..

I feel it is important to note that this is build is HEAVILY focused on Archery Combat Tactics. Though I am capable of popping Stunning Fist with melee. This toon will also do quite a bit of Melee combat, both for KI and Single Target DPS, and the situational Touch of Death

This will be new for me. If you have Guide Tips, Advices, anything really. LET. ME. KNOW. I feel some people are afraid or hessitant to share their opinions in case of making the OP feel confused, disrupted, neglected, fed up, hungry, thirsty, etc...
I like to adapt to knowledge, while still sticking to my way of playing my builds. You advice on efficiency becomes my way of efficiently making my builds!


Here it is. (This build will pick Cleric Dilly for the whole game)

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.09.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Half-Elf Male
(2 Fighter \ 12 Monk \ 6 Ranger) 
Hit Points: 306
Spell Points: 280 
BAB: 17\17\22\27\27
Fortitude: 19
Reflex: 17
Will: 17

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats         Modified Stats
(34 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 20)           (Level 20)
Strength             15                 17                   19
Dexterity            16                 19                   19
Constitution         15                 17                   17
Intelligence          8                 10                   10
Wisdom               15                 22                   25
Charisma              8                 10                   10

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 11

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills        Base Skills        Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)          (Level 20)          (Level 20)
Balance               7                 27                   31
Bluff                -1                  0                    0
Concentration         2                 26                   28
Diplomacy            -1                  0                    0
Disable Device       n/a                n/a                   n/a
Haggle               -1                  0                    0
Heal                  2                  7                    7
Hide                  3                  4                    8
Intimidate           -1                  0                    0
Jump                  2                  4                    6
Listen                2                  7                    7
Move Silently         3                  4                    4
Open Lock             n/a               n/a                   n/a
Perform              n/a                n/a                   n/a
Repair               -1                  0                    0
Search               -1                  0                    0
Spot                  6                 30                   30
Swim                  2                  4                    4
Tumble                7                 18                   20
Use Magic Device     n/a                n/a                   n/a

Level 1 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Feat: (Half-Elf Dilettante) Half-Elf Dilettante: Cleric
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Ranger
Feat: (Selected) Point Blank Shot
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness


Level 2 (Fighter)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Ranged Weapons


Level 3 (Ranger)
Skill: Concentration (+5)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
Feat: (Selected) Zen Archery


Level 4 (Ranger)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Spot (+3)


Level 5 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+1.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)


Level 6 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+1.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness
Spell (1): Camouflage
Spell (1): Jump
Spell (1): Longstrider
Spell (1): Merfolk's Blessing
Spell (1): Ram's Might
Spell (1): Resist Energy
Spell (1): Summon Nature's Ally I
Spell (1): Tumble


Level 7 (Fighter)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Precise Shot


Level 8 (Ranger)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider


Level 9 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons


Level 10 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Dodge


Level 11 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Inevitable Dominion: Fists of Darkness


Level 12 (Monk)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Precise Shot


Level 13 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)


Level 14 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Stunning Fist


Level 15 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Monk)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)


Level 17 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)


Level 18 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 19 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)


Level 20 (Monk)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost I
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Acid Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Explosive Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Force Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Force Burst Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Slaying Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Terror Arrows
Enhancement: Improved Cleric Dilettante I
Enhancement: Improved Cleric Dilettante II
Enhancement: Improved Cleric Dilettante III
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Wisdom I
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Static Charge
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise I
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise II
Enhancement: Touch of Death
Enhancement: Porous Soul
Enhancement: All-Consuming Flame
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy I
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy II
Enhancement: Winter's Touch
Enhancement: Adept of Rock
Enhancement: Master of Stone
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Attack I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage I
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +2 Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +3 Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +4 Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +5 Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer I
Enhancement: Improved Jump I
Enhancement: Improved Jump II
Enhancement: Improved Tumble I
Enhancement: Improved Tumble II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I

Ending Ability Status:

STR = 15 Creation + 2 Tome + 2 Enhancement + 6 Item + 3 Exeptional + 2 Rams = 30
DEX = 16 Creation + 3 Tome + 6 Item + 1 Exeptional (Gilveanors), -2 Earth Stance = 24
CON = 15 Creation + 2 Tome + 6 Item, +3 Earth Stance = 26
INT = 8 Creation + 2 Tome = 10
WIS = 15 Creation + 2 Tome + 5 Lvlup + 3 Enhancement + 6 Item + 3 Exeptional = 34
CHA = 8 Creation + 2 Tome = 10


Ending Saving Throws Status:

- Fortitude = 19 Base + 5 Resistance + 3 CON Item + 2 Earth Stance (Odd Stat) + 4 GH = 33
- Reflex = 17 Base + 5 Resistance + 3 DEX Item + 1 Exeptional (Odd Stat) + 4 GH + -1 Earth Stance = 29
- Will = 17 Base + 5 Resistance + 3 WIS Item + 1 Enhancement + 2 Exeptional (Odd Stat) + 4 GH = 32



Things I'm not happy with:

- Low Reflex Save
- Kinda Lowish HP



Got Sugestions for other Splits? Other ways of doing the build all together? Le me know!

[Zerenety]

Hello lurkers

[Maldavenous]

Why are you starting with 17 DEX and 14 WIS if you're putting all your level-ups into WIS and using that as your attack stat?

[Sillk]

Why are you starting with 17 DEX and 14 WIS if you're putting all your level-ups into WIS and using that as your attack stat?

He needs a Dex of 19 for Improved Precise Shot, so he's only a +2 tome away, which is a make-or-break feat for this kind of build.

He could probably start with a higher Wis, and put level ups in Dex, but either way, needs 19 by the time he hits Lvl 15.

[Zerenety]

Okay, seems like people are having some difficulties with giving me suggestion. I'll try and simply and direct my question.


One question I find asking my self, is the Finisher Striker and special moves. Since I am aiming for such high WISDOM instead of DEX, would this allow me to efficiently use these types of combat?

The only one that comes to my head atm is the Stunning Fist. What do you think about that?

Please give me some advice on this and other special moves, thank you

[k1ngp1n]

Well, ki gen and special moves do not work with ranged, so its rather irrelevant for this build. And since your melee is so-so, I wouldn't recommend doing much of that either. A few dice of sneak attack is nice, so here's to that.

It's nearly impossible to blend monk abilities and archer abilities and be strong in both.

[Therrias]

I'm doing 11 ranger and 9 monk. Full ranged and TWF feats without dex so you can have higher wis and str. It gives up UMD, but you still get improved evasion and ToD with 9 monk levels. Level 9 so far (6 ranger/3 monk) and working great so far. Excellent unarmed and ranged DPS.

[Zerenety]

Well, ki gen and special moves do not work with ranged, so its rather irrelevant for this build. And since your melee is so-so, I wouldn't recommend doing much of that either. A few dice of sneak attack is nice, so here's to that.

It's nearly impossible to blend monk abilities and archer abilities and be strong in both.

I'm not aiming to be strong in both eather. I want to be strong in Archery, but I like to have all the situational options given to me. If I can use Stunning fist, I am super happy! I don't need to do all around good damage with it.

Now, I know that KI doesnt work with Archery, but Doesn't Earthstance give KI upon beeing hit?

DDO Compendium:
*The mountain stance focuses on endurance and defense, granting increased Constitution, damage reduction, natural armor, and improved blocking ability at the cost of reducing your Dexterity and movement speed. While in mountain stance, you generate Ki when struck by opponents and the critical multiplier of all weapons you use is increased by 1 on rolls of a natural 19 or 20.*

Of Course, you gain KI when striking opponents aswell, right? This means that I can (Maybe efficiantly) use Special Moves while tanking, doesn't it?

Is Stunning Fist subject to KI?

[andbr22]

The only plus of getting Zen-Archery is that you can remain in stances while ranged -> that is minor plus (+1 Dmg and 25% Heal amplification from Jitz-Tetka; or 1 to hit and "poor man's haste"). You wont regen ki or use any ki attack with bow (or suriken).
You are multiclassing so at least get dependable fighting ability with fists -> you can get stunning fist. also with investment you should be able to have dependable AC.

[Koshy11]

Yes stunning fist is subjected to Ki (15 ki), in fact it runs on will saves which makes it oh so nice to smack big brutes in the happy sac with.

The formula is as such: The DC is 10 + half Character level + Wisdom modifier + Stunning item bonus.

That in your case : 10 + 10 + 12 +10 = 42 will save to resist your fist.

Pretty good if you have enough Ki to perma stun something.

However, the problem lies in keeping a constant Ki generation, as even with Zen archery, you don't gain Ki from pew pewing, only retain what you have.

If you're expecting to build up ki getting hit, you better well be some super meat shield,aka able to intimidate and have quicken to make sure your self healing gets to you. Way I see it, that most probably will make your healer or your wallet cry, or both. And if you rely on getting hit, stunning your victim is no good now is it?

[k1ngp1n]

Is Stunning Fist subject to KI?

Stunning fist requires ki and a feat (monk bonus), which you have not taken that I can see.

DDO Compendium:
*The mountain stance focuses on endurance and defense, granting increased Constitution, damage reduction, natural armor, and improved blocking ability at the cost of reducing your Dexterity and movement speed. While in mountain stance, you generate Ki when struck by opponents and the critical multiplier of all weapons you use is increased by 1 on rolls of a natural 19 or 20.*

Yes, earth stance gives a little ki from being hit. As a archer, the goal is not to get hit. Earth stance slows you down, so you're less able to control your range. Earth stance + archer = bad ju ju.

Of Course, you gain KI when striking opponents aswell, right? This means that I can (Maybe efficiantly) use Special Moves while tanking, doesn't it?

I'm curious as to how this build would tank?

This is a survivable build. It has hp, it has saves, it has evasion. It has OK ranged DPS (pure ranger is better, and other builds better than that, but it beats a AA FvS, so I'm happeh!). But it doesn't have big DPS and mobility is going to be key to effectiveness (using your speed to line up mobs for IPS, for instance). Ki gen on a 13 monk will be rather low (especially compared to a 20 monk) and short of fire stance and oremi's, you won't have enough to do much of anything useful.

Burn a feat on Stunning fist, and that wisdom will become useful.

[Zerenety]

The only plus of getting Zen-Archery is that you can remain in stances while ranged -> that is minor plus (+1 Dmg and 25% Heal amplification from Jitz-Tetka; or 1 to hit and "poor man's haste"). You wont regen ki or use any ki attack with bow (or suriken).
You are multiclassing so at least get dependable fighting ability with fists -> you can get stunning fist. also with investment you should be able to have dependable AC.

Yes, I am looking into all the benefits the Multiclass can give me Though if I went Stunning Fist, I would eather loose out on GTWF or Ninja Spy. I'll think about that...

Those bracers gives extra unarmed damage while in Earth Stance. The Healing AMP is while in Fire Stance.

I have been looking into each Stance, and can see many useful special attacks! I will se if some of the other Stances can benefit me with something cool. I'll post them specifically later when I have found some


What I might do, is bring up these tactics while having aggro and beeing hit. Since Earthstance give KI upon hit, and Unarmed gives ki while hitting, I can store up some KI quickly. Then I can start using the benefitial Special Moves given to me. What do you think about that?

I'm doing 11 ranger and 9 monk. Full ranged and TWF feats without dex so you can have higher wis and str. It gives up UMD, but you still get improved evasion and ToD with 9 monk levels. Level 9 so far (6 ranger/3 monk) and working great so far. Excellent unarmed and ranged DPS.

Yes, I can see how useful that would be! But as you said; No UMD, Low DEX (Bye bye, Reflex save..). Also it misses out on Greater Mountain Stance and Abundant Step, two core reasons for me going this type of build.

Thanks for your build comparison! I love builds that are original and fun, have fun with it ^^!

[Zerenety]

If you're expecting to build up ki getting hit, you better well be some super meat shield,aka able to intimidate and have quicken to make sure your self healing gets to you. Way I see it, that most probably will make your healer or your wallet cry, or both. And if you rely on getting hit, stunning your victim is no good now is it?

This a survivable build. It has hp, it has saves, it has evasion. It has OK ranged DPS (pure ranger is better, and other builds better than that, but it beats a AA FvS, so I'm happeh!). But it doesn't have big DPS and mobility is going to be key to effectiveness (using your speed to line up mobs for IPS, for instance). Ki gen on a 13 monk will be rather low (especially compared to a 20 monk) and short of fire stance and oremi's, you won't have enough to do much of anything useful.

Burn a feat on Stunning fist, and that wisdom will become useful.

Yes, I am definately aware of the tanking part. I would have to be able to bring my AC up enough to make myself useful while in those situations. Now I am not a number cruncher, but I will se if I can come up with some numbers

[kanbeki]

I would honestly do 11ranger/9monk over this build you get better range, ac, and your unarmed isn't affected as much, you could easily fit in max and quicken and your reflex will be fine just from being a ranger. This would allow to to focus solely on str and wis. Outside of resses with a setup like this what would you need UMD for?

[Thrudh]

It's nearly impossible to blend monk abilities and archer abilities and be strong in both.

This is incorrect.

You can be a very strong archer, and a decent monk melee...

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=294899

OP, putting all level ups into wisdom works... You can get a stunning fist that lands, and a Touch of Death that mobs don't automatically save against.

I have an archer/monk and I find it to be a very fun build...

The main trick, in my opinion, is to know when to put the bow down, and use handwraps....

[Thrudh]

Looks like you're feat-starved... Go 12/6/2 Monk/Ranger/Fighter instead of splashing rogue, and you'll be able to take Stunning Fist, and keep the other good feats as well.

[Thrudh]

I would honestly do 11ranger/9monk over this build you get better range, ac, and your unarmed isn't affected as much, you could easily fit in max and quicken and your reflex will be fine just from being a ranger. This would allow to to focus solely on str and wis. Outside of resses with a setup like this what would you need UMD for?

This is a good point... That 19 Dex requirement is tough on a wisdom build...

I only built my monk/archer after I had a +3 Dex tome banked, so I was able to start with a 16 Dex on my half-elf. (17 is costly)

[Zerenety]

You guys have brought up some nice advantages of bringing up the 2 fighter lvls, indeed.

If I'm correct, these things will be benefitial to me at the 3rd cleric Dilly enhancement, known as up to lvl 5 Spells:

Lvl 1 Cleric Spells:

- Nightshield
- Protection From Evil
- Shield of Faith
- Cure Light Wounds
- Divine Favor (Only giving me 1 Luck Bonus though)

Lvl 2 Cleric Spells:

- Resist Energy (I actully don't know how much it protects at caster lvl 5)
- Cure Moderate Wounds (Low-Mid Game healing)
- Lesser Restoration

Lvl 3 Cleric Spells:

- Magic Circle Against Evil
- Protection From Energy (Don't know how much this will be at 5th eather)
- Remove Curse
- Cure Serious Wounds
- Remove Blindness
- Remove Disease

Lvl 4 Cleric Spells:

- Freedom of Movement
- Cure Critical Wounds
- Neutralize Poison
- Panacea
- Restoration
- Recitation
- Divine Power
- Death Ward

Lvl 5 Cleric Spells:

- Protection From Elements
- Spell Resistance (Only giving 17 at caster lvl 5?)
- Raise Dead
- True Seeing
- Stalwart Pact

Low-Medicore opposed to UMD...

Now the Heal spell is lvl 6th. This means that it has more than 5% chance of failiure? (rolling a 1 counts as 5%)
Does taking some UMD lvls help this at all?

The lvl 6th list brings some nice additions, indeed. Though I woulds love the rest of em aswell. To bad I can't max UMD with Fighter lvls :/ I'll think about it while trying to crunch numbers...

[Miahoo]

With the enhancements your can use scrolls and wands up to lvl 10 cleric.
Or did I misunderstand ya...?

http://ddowiki.com/page/Dilettante_feats

Edit:
I think I understand ya now. If I'm not mistaken, you can still use the lvl 11 scrolls/wands but with some failure, just as lvl 10 cleric. But this needs to be verify.

[Xyfiel]

Let me quote your last thread about this.

Am going to run this on one of my Archers next life as a test, just throwing it out there if you like the idea.

Half Elf 12monk/6ranger/2fighter
free feats: two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting, diehard, rapid shot, manyshot, bow strength
7 base feats +3 Monk feats +2 fighter feats = 12
precise shot, improved precise shot, improved crit range, weapon focus range, mental toughness, toughness, point blank shot, zen archery, dodge, stunning fist, greater two weapon fighting, power attack

Rogue Dilettante for 3d6 extra damage
Good hit points, saves, Ac, and improved evasion
Stunning fist and greater two weapon fighting for melee damage
Slayer Arrows, Earth stance, improved precise shot, and manyshot for ranged damage
Ninja spy stealth and concealment
Max wisdom, 19 dex, good str/con.

For 36 point build I would go 16str, 16 dex, 16 wis, 14 con and put one level up into dex if no +3 tome.

I've been looking to lay some thought on such a build, thanks for posting it.

But since im no VIP yet, and still dont have either monk or helf, ill have to go something different :/
Though I do like my own concept, i like the flavor of yours. Maybe next life when i have 36 pbuild



Anyway, have added some question to my latest build post. Please, feel free to share your opinion

It really comes down to this build or the Angel build for power. It seems you want opinions, then defend against them with other options. At some point, you just have to trust us or go with what you want.