evasion + wraith wizard + shield = tank?

[DDOisFree]

Healing = Harm?

Most clerics I run with these days have harm memorised without needing to be asked, and even better know how to use it on a PM only if their HP is around 25-33%.

Its getting to the point that if a cleric doesnt have harm memorised, or actually says 'I cant heal you because you are undead', then that is just a terrible cleric.

Now it would be brilliant if Turbine could add harm scrolls to the scroll vendors. I'd buy a bunch and keep them on my wizard and hand a few out to the healers. That way a FVS could also heal PMs without wasting a spell slot.

[Failedlegend]

Splashing for evasion is a big loss. No evasion with insightful is just fine as it reduces all those spells by half allowing your aura to keep up with whatever is left. If its heavy spell dmg a prot from elements covers it. Losing 1 to your dc's, discounts on all metamagics, 2 spell pen, 2 die of dmg on many spells, a fairly large chunk of spell points etc is a big loss.

Ok I personally will always (under the current game state...which is of course subject to change) want evasion on my wiz so that doesn't make a difference for me which is why I specified it.

I'm not actually "losing" the capstone because I would be going 18/2 Wiz/Rog anyway.

So since we don't agree on that lets look ONLY at the loss of 2 feats on a pure wiz

Shield Prof:General
Shield Mastery
Toughness
Insightful Reflexes
Extend
SF:Necro
Mental Toughness
Maximize
Heighten
GSF: Necro
Quicken
Empower
Augment Summoning or something.

Note: you could easily drop Augment Summoning, Insightful reflexes (which is far less useful without Evasion) and/or Mental Toughness (mostly a pre-req for Wraith) for SP and GSP.

Healing = Harm?

Most clerics I run with these days have harm memorised without needing to be asked, and even better know how to use it on a PM only if their HP is around 25-33%.

Its getting to the point that if a cleric doesnt have harm memorised, or actually says 'I cant heal you because you are undead', then that is just a terrible cleric.

Now it would be brilliant if Turbine could add harm scrolls to the scroll vendors. I'd buy a bunch and keep them on my wizard and hand a few out to the healers. That way a FVS could also heal PMs without wasting a spell slot.

I wouldn't say it makes them a bad healer but I have noticed that the majority of Clerics have started carrying the relative inflict wounds/harm spells and small percentage of FvS as well

[LeLoric]

Ok I personally will always (under the current game state...which is of course subject to change) want evasion on my wiz so that doesn't make a difference for me which is why I specified it.



So since we don't agree on that lets look ONLY at the loss of 2 feats on a pure wiz

Shield Prof:General
Shield Mastery
Toughness
Insightful Reflexes
Extend
SF:Necro
Mental Toughness
Maximize
Heighten
GSF: Necro
Quicken
Empower
Augment Summoning or something.

Note: you could easily drop Augment Summoning, Insightful reflexes (which is far less useful without Evasion) and/or Mental Toughness (mostly a pre-req for Wraith) for SP and GSP.

Im not necessarily saying theres anything wrong with your feat list per say. As I said earlier the point of my original post in this thread was to warn against people doing things like dropping empower and such.

I don't consider insightful reflexes a choice to drop. The only thing that's gonna kill you on a pm is high burst dmg. That is usually relegated to epic spells most of which can be halved through reflex saves (sunburst falls into this category btw). Taking 150 vs 300 is big for things like chain lightning and cometfall. Even moreso for sunburst as when you save not only do you take half dmg but you take half the damage that a non-undead would usually about 60 dmg instead of 400.

I am actually taking shiled prof and mastery on my human palemaster next tr (drop augment summoning from your list and add wizzy past life). So no I don't think those are bad choices. I think actions like dropping empower to try and make this kind of build work are the problems I was seeing in this thread. Overcompensating to be able to tank and significantly lowering your effectiveness as a caster in non tanking situations are the things I warned against. I do think splashing for evasion fits into here but that's your choice but it in no way is needed or even really beneficial you just arent going to die to stuff that you can half by reflex save anyways.

[Entelech]

I've been playing exactly this idea.

The build I am using is a Half Elf, 12 Wizard / 6 Fighter / 2 Rogue

Pale Master 2 and Stalwart Defender 1 with Paladin Dilettante.

UMD > 40, Intimidate ~ 70, Evasion, All saves ~ +30, Scimitar and Shield.

As for shields, Light and Darkness from the Mindsunder quest is your best option. The 5% ASF is easily compensated by Half Elf racial enhancements. Fanion (from the Necro 4 Shield Fragments quest) is also a good choice.

For armor a robe with Boon of Undeath is ideal. At lower levels, the Elfcrafted Chain Armor from Gianthold is a good compromise.

I also recommend Bracers of the Demon's Consort, and of course, a Torc of Raiyum-de is indispensible.


The build works beautifully for soloing, and does reasonably well in groups, especially once the Boon of Undeath robe can be equipped. Usually very minimal outside healing is required, and the ability to ignore negative levels and healing curses means that you fail to notice things that wipe most parties.

Also, you do not need to gear up for AC. You rely on DR and things that act like DR, such as the temporary hitpoints from the Bracers of the Demon's Consort and the reactive healing from the Epic Robe of Shadow.

As far as weaknesses, there are a few. First, the build is weak in DPS output, and the recent intimidate changes make it a bit harder to hold aggro in an undisciplined party.

Secondly, the spell point pool is quite limited. While trash mobs flailing at you will quickly top you back off, you can run dry quickly if they refuse to cooperate.

Thirdly, your casting capabilities fall significantly behind anything useful for CC at endgame. Your crowd control spell is the Intimidate button and possibly Firewall. You're not a nuker either. You're a melee character with limited damage casting, self buffs, utility spells, and a huge bag of odd tricks.


As for going with more Wizard than 12 / 6 / 2 or 14 / 6, I've found that your melee capability falls so far behind as to be vestigial and useless with less than 1 tier of a combat PrE.

http://my.ddo.com/character/thelanis/mordite

[Ngha]

I've been mulling it over.

LeLoric is right about the second toughness being swapped for empower.

The second toughness doesn't add enough HP to be meaningful VS 1*2*1.5=2.5 damage with your spells.

I underestimated how much the healing of the auras comes into play with the burst healing of necro burst and the like.

I'm going to swap out the second toughness for empower at a higher level.

The only downside to doing this is tightening up your AP a bit, but really, without it you're wasting about 8 AP just to get the other enhancements that you need.

I'm going to rebuild it, better than it was before. I have the technology...

[Ngha]

This is much better:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.9.1 
DDO Character Planner Home Page  

Level 20 Chaotic Good Human Male 
(2 Rogue / 18 Wizard) 
Hit Points: 236 
Spell Points: 1441 

BAB: 10/10/15/20 
Fortitude: 9 
Reflex: 17 
Will: 11 

              Starting    Feat/Enhancement 
Abilities    Base Stats    Modified Stats 
(28 Point)    (Level 1)      (Level 20) 
Strength            8                 8 
Dexterity           8                 8 
Constitution       16                17 
Intelligence       18                27 
Wisdom             10                10 
Charisma            8                 8 

Level 1 (Rogue) 
Feat: (Selected) Shield Proficiency (General) 
Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness 
 
Level 2 (Wizard) 
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Maximize Spell 
 
Level 3 (Wizard) 
Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery 
 
Level 4 (Wizard) 
Ability Raise: INT 
 
Level 5 (Wizard) 
 
Level 6 (Wizard) 
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness 
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Spell Focus: Necromancy 
 
Level 7 (Wizard) 
 
Level 8 (Rogue) 
Ability Raise: INT 
 
Level 9 (Wizard) 
Feat: (Selected) Insightful Reflexes 
 
Level 10 (Wizard) 
 
Level 11 (Wizard) 
 
Level 12 (Wizard) 
Ability Raise: INT 
Feat: (Selected) Empower Spell 
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Quicken Spell 
 
Level 13 (Wizard) 
 
Level 14 (Wizard) 
 
Level 15 (Wizard) 
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy 
 
Level 16 (Wizard) 
Ability Raise: INT 
 
Level 17 (Wizard) 
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Heighten Spell 
 
Level 18 (Wizard) 
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Mastery 
 
Level 19 (Wizard) 
 
Level 20 (Wizard) 
Ability Raise: INT 
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I 
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Constitution I 
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Intelligence I 
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Empowering I 
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Empowering II 
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Heightening I 
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Maximizing I 
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Maximizing II 
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I 
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II 
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III 
Enhancement: Acid Manipulation I 
Enhancement: Acid Manipulation II 
Enhancement: Acid Manipulation III 
Enhancement: Acid Manipulation IV 
Enhancement: Acid Manipulation V 
Enhancement: Acid Manipulation VI 
Enhancement: Acid Manipulation VII 
Enhancement: Force Manipulation I 
Enhancement: Force Manipulation II 
Enhancement: Force Manipulation III 
Enhancement: Force Manipulation IV 
Enhancement: Force Manipulation V 
Enhancement: Force Manipulation VI 
Enhancement: Force Manipulation VII 
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar I 
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar II 
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar III 
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar IV 
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence I 
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence II 
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence III 
Enhancement: Wizard Wand and Scroll Mastery I 
Enhancement: Wizard Wand and Scroll Mastery II 
Enhancement: Shroud of the Lich 
Enhancement: Wizard Pale Master I 
Enhancement: Wizard Pale Master II 
Enhancement: Wizard Pale Master III 
Enhancement: Shroud of the Vampire 
Enhancement: Shroud of the Wraith

I'd see him using Fanion, Anathema, Max HP gear, Max SP gear, Potency item, Conc/Torc combo, CON/INT gear, and a Reflex item.

His Spell DPS would match/exceed most PM builds, but not quite as high or for as long as an AM. However, with the threat item he may be able to grab aggro. His Tanking abilities are rediculous...honestly, I've been testing it out, now to level 7 and lvl 12+ Melee DPSers are having trouble damaging(except pure barbs, ouch, and some monks). Spell damage still hurts because I don't have evasion, but after getting gear and having wraith form I believe he'll fulfill the desired role quite well.

Thoughts on the update?

[Failedlegend]

I'd see him using Fanion, Anathema, Max HP gear, Max SP gear, Potency item, Conc/Torc combo, CON/INT gear, and a Reflex item.

Hmmm...I wonder what some good equipment might be (not necessarily end-game)

Head: Minos Legens (Possibly Crystal Cove Hat)
Neck: Torc
Trinket:Litany of the Dead (With VotM, HoGF & Mysterious Bauble on hand for various uses) and if the stars align Xachosian Eardweller
Cloak: GS Cloak (SP/Cha Skills)
Waist: Eerie Belt
Hands: 7 Fingered Gloves
Feet: Gyro Boots (Swap to Anchoring/Delving boots as necessary)
Wrists: Demon Consort Bracers
Body: Shroud of the Abbot
Eyes: HP Con-Op Goggles
Ring1: Anathema
Ring2: Sanura's Band
Weapon: Ornamented dagger
Shield: Light & Darkness (Skyvault, Fanion or a crafted shield for lower levels)

[voodoogroves]

Some feedback based on my personal preferences

Armor: Shroud of the Abbot ... but the Epic Mabar Docent/Robe would be an ideal choice

Shield: I'd go Skyvault before Fanion; the blocking DR is much better. Ultimately you want an epic shield slotted w/ 15% reduction to ASF (Kundarak Warding maybe as a goal; Swashbuckler may be easier to score). Light and Darkness is also quite solid.

Neck: Torc ... amen

Make your GS goggles HP ConOp.

Make a GS +6 CHA skills swappable item. Raise clickie never hurts, nor does the ability to scroll it easier.

Leave boots open to swap for anchoring / delving boots.

My wizard believes the Eardweller doesn't exist. My FVS and Rogue think they are stupidly common.

Ring of Lies may be easier to get than Anathema, sadly.

[Kaeldur]

The best shield for this is the Skyvault Shield (drops in Reaver's Fate raid): http://ddowiki.com/page/Skyvault_Shield

No ASF at all!

Not sure anyone mentioned this yet but the Fanion is also interesting for this type of build. Although the blocking DR is despicable

[Failedlegend]

Some feedback based on my personal preferences

Armor: Shroud of the Abbot ... but the Epic Mabar Docent/Robe would be an ideal choice

Shield: I'd go Skyvault before Fanion; the blocking DR is much better. Ultimately you want an epic shield slotted w/ 15% reduction to ASF (Kundarak Warding maybe as a goal; Swashbuckler may be easier to score). Light and Darkness is also quite solid.

Neck: Torc ... amen

Make your GS goggles HP ConOp.

Make a GS +6 CHA skills swappable item. Raise clickie never hurts, nor does the ability to scroll it easier.

Leave boots open to swap for anchoring / delving boots.

My wizard believes the Eardweller doesn't exist. My FVS and Rogue think they are stupidly common.

Ring of Lies may be easier to get than Anathema, sadly.

Updated the items based on some of your suggestions. Oh and I purposefully avoided epic stuff as they can completely change the entire equipment line-up.

Not sure anyone mentioned this yet but the Fanion is also interesting for this type of build. Although the blocking DR is despicable

Yeah the last 3~ posts were talking about it.

[Entelech]

nm.

For goggles, Hit Points is a good idea. Concordant Opp or Disintegration Guard are good choices.

For the Cloak slot, my version wears a + SP, Lightning II cloak. +6 to all Cha skills, loads of SP, and a great guard effect.

For Gloves, those Seven Fingered ones from Titan Awakes are a pain to get. Farm Fanged Gloves from Necro 4 as a stopgap, or craft some with -5% ASF

For a build intended to tank, guard effects are always a good idea.

[DDOisFree]

I wouldn't say it makes them a bad healer but I have noticed that the majority of Clerics have started carrying the relative inflict wounds/harm spells and small percentage of FvS as well

It makes them a terrible healer if they actually say 'I cant heal you because you are undead' instead of saying 'I dont have Harm memorised so I wont be able to heal you'.

I dont get why the only self heal that PMs get is negative energy burst - Maxed and Empowered with +18% critical chance and negative energy gear, it only heals for around 140 for a massive 60+ SP. Without both max and empower, it is useless. I have actually started using both lesser and normal death aura in epics as both of those stack together. I hardly ever die and use my neg energy burst when I have to, but harm scrolls on the healer would make it a lot less SP intensive.

[Failedlegend]

nm.
For the Cloak slot, my version wears a + SP, Lightning II cloak. +6 to all Cha skills, loads of SP, and a great guard effect.

Added

Oh and can someone correct me if I'm wrong but their isn't anything better than the Skiver 1-Handed Weapon wise is there...it has decent effects but after all the other equips only the efficient metas remain...which while not bad I wish there was better.

[voodoogroves]

Oh and can someone correct me if I'm wrong but their isn't anything better than the Skiver 1-Handed Weapon wise is there...it has decent effects but after all the other equips only the efficient metas remain...which while not bad I wish there was better.

Don't get caught up on a single weapon; you're going to want a few different options. I didn't bother farming up a Skiver and instead use Greenblade, Sup (potency thing clicky), Stregnth Sapping, Vorpal, etc. plus carry a set of staffs (Rahl's Might, Dreamspitter, Master Transmuter's, Seer, etc.)



Remember you're still a wizard. That doesn't make you James Bond - it makes you Q.

[DDOisFree]

The skiver is nice, but you dont always have it equipped, or at least you shouldnt.

Weapons should be swapped to whatever stats you need for what you are doing. Archmagi is a waste on a weapon slot because you lose it if you need to switch weapons.

A good list of caster weapons, some of which I use are:

Master Transmuters Staff
Pure Negative INT bonus GS weapon
Death's Touch
Skyvault Shield
Skiver
Staff of the Petitioner
Epic Staff of Inner Sight
Epic Staff of Arcane Power

The staffs are the nicest of the lot, but I made myself a pure negative GS sickle to wield with my deaths touch so I have 40 int, +2 necro focus, and +2 enchant focus from my eardweller. A Skiver would be nice to swap to when casting DoTs on red names.

[LeLoric]

The skiver is nice, but you dont always have it equipped, or at least you shouldnt.

Weapons should be swapped to whatever stats you need for what you are doing. Archmagi is a waste on a weapon slot because you lose it if you need to switch weapons.

A good list of caster weapons, some of which I use are:

Master Transmuters Staff
Pure Negative INT bonus GS weapon
Death's Touch
Skyvault Shield
Skiver
Staff of the Petitioner
Epic Staff of Inner Sight
Epic Staff of Arcane Power

The staffs are the nicest of the lot, but I made myself a pure negative GS sickle to wield with my deaths touch so I have 40 int, +2 necro focus, and +2 enchant focus from my eardweller. A Skiver would be nice to swap to when casting DoTs on red names.

I don't even use skiver for this anymore. Tier 3 lev 16 crystal cove dagger works better for me.

[Failedlegend]

I don't even use skiver for this anymore. Tier 3 lev 16 crystal cove dagger works better for me.

right totally forgot about that (which weird since I have one...wish I made 4,8 & 12 versions)

[DDOisFree]

I don't even use skiver for this anymore. Tier 3 lev 16 crystal cove dagger works better for me.

The problem with that is you need to have been active during the event to get one. I wasnt, I usually only play DDO like most other games for a couple of months per year, as I eventually get bored of playing the same thing and want to change to something else.

I really dont like that you need to be active at a certain time of the year just to get godly equips, sure its great for people who play 24/7 all year long, but not for casual players.

[Failedlegend]

The problem with that is you need to have been active during the event to get one. I wasnt, I usually only play DDO like most other games for a couple of months per year, as I eventually get bored of playing the same thing and want to change to something else.

I really dont like that you need to be active at a certain time of the year just to get godly equips, sure its great for people who play 24/7 all year long, but not for casual players.

I usually play once or twice a week but I'm on the forums daily (any replies go straight to my e-mail) so I always know when an event is coming so even if I've taken a month or so off I usually wander in for the event (which I'm pretty sure why MMOs do events)

[Ngha]

Hmmm...I wonder what some good equipment might be (not necessarily end-game)

Head: Minos Legens (Possibly Crystal Cove Hat) Would only need this for When you're fighting lariat and not in form, otherwise I'd choose something else or most of the time, undead are already heavy fort

Trinket:Litany of the Dead (With VotM, HoGF & Mysterious Bauble on hand for various uses) and if the stars align Xachosian Eardweller Wouldn't use eardweller if I had Sanura's Band, kinda pointless. or Vice Versa if I had eardweller first

Waist: Eerie Belt I'd Carry swapping items for both the Pale master items. SImply because they're not needed during quests with lots of undead

Feet: Gyro Boots (Swap to Anchoring/Delving boots as necessary) I'm not sure but I'm almost positive I rather craft my own boots to better suit the character purposes

Weapon: Ornamented dagger Probably craft about 3-5 swappable items here for different purposes

Shield: Light & Darkness (Skyvault, Fanion or a crafted shield for lower levels)I've actually been trying to figure out if its possible to reduce a Tower Shield to 0% ASF, If I can manage it.

Red.


*EDIT* Also I didn't see a con item in there, I may have skipped it over, but really you want tyou CON/HP items before your SP Items, especially if you want to tank.