evasion + wraith wizard + shield = tank?

[voodoogroves]

Oh and I personally wouldn't drop heighten either...as far as quicken and empower never had em on my casters...never see a reco or neg burst fail....so between that and quicken I'd probably drop quicken or go human...the latter is probably the better choice since your going to be tanking quicken might actually come into play.

Dude, totally respect a different point of view but please trust me when I say that if you're trying to seriously tank a boss Quicken isn't optional - not having it is suicide. You WILL fail concentration checks due to the damage you're taking.

Although I question this "You're not going to be boss tanking trying to UMD a harm scroll to self heal either." why not??

See the above bit about Quicken. You're going to be failing concentration checks right and left and ruining your very limited supply of collectible-turn-in harm scrolls ... and then die because you can't self heal. If you want to reliably self heal while tanking that means Quicken and a spell, not a slow scroll that is easily interrupted.

Monk doesn't give stance possibilities as Shields negate that

The stances give you options for the 90% of the game you're not boss tanking ... like tossing on staff and dropping to Water stance for +2 Reflex, Fort and +3 to Will ... or Fire to hit a lever ... or Earth for 20 more HP ...

and the animal path is only +5 HP.

... and if I'm tanking then the extra 4 HP from monk vs rogue and 5 from stance is absolutely something I look at.

So really (unless you can get Dex/Wis high enough for top tier AC without compromising Int/Con) its an extra toughness or two (as the other monk feats are nigh useless) versus Maxed UMD & Intimidate (11 vs. 23)

It's two more feats, 9 more HP, 3 more Fort and Will saves from Monk vs more UMD (which you can't use while tanking) and Intimidate (which even with the extra points isn't going to have you hitting the big targets). If those two feats are both Toughness, that's what ... 53 more HP total? AC has absolutely nothing to do with it. For a tank ... and not a dancy avoid-hits sniper type ... I think that's far far more useful.

So again its mostly personal preference.

True that ;-) ... but I've tried to explain in more detail why I feel the way I do.

[Ngha]

I use scrolls religiously to self heal during combat. On characters I do have UMD enough to scroll, I don't contribute to the death count.

*EDIT* of course my I also tumble 50 meters or so, lol. on a caster its not a big deal to re-aggro.

[voodoogroves]

I use scrolls religiously to self heal during combat. On characters I do have UMD enough to scroll, I don't contribute to the death count.

Oh no doubt. I wouldn't on a PM though, as in general the auras are going to do that w/ a burst every once in a while .... "in combat".

While boss tanking though? Scroll healing isn't a recipe for success there.

[Ngha]

Oh no doubt. I wouldn't on a PM though, as in general the auras are going to do that w/ a burst every once in a while .... "in combat".

While boss tanking though? Scroll healing isn't a recipe for success there.

Tumble+scroll is. Especially if you learn how to tumble in a circle.

[Failedlegend]

Dude, totally respect a different point of view but please trust me when I say that if you're trying to seriously tank a boss Quicken isn't optional - not having it is suicide. You WILL fail concentration checks due to the damage you're taking

Yeah I'm definitely thinking of going Human to fit in quicken I've just never had any experience with it before so no argument there. Sad to see the +5 Saves go though. Oh well.

I can see why you would choose Monk though 50ishHp (assuming two extra toughness feats) is a nice chunk I just really enjoy the versatility UMD brings because as you said 90% of the time you won't be in tank mode so even if you cant use it while getting pounded on you can use it elsewhere...also I intend to pretty much always carry a shield tanking or not the passive 15% DR is great regardless of your role.

On the other hand if I do decide to TR a 2nd time I might go 18Wiz/Monk2 as with that many build points you can get Dex,Int,Wis to decent levels (14,18,16) if that's enough (with good gear,etc.) for non-epic AC benchmarks (and Turbine has pulled the rug out from underneath us yet) it would probably be worth giving up the UMD especially since by than my crafting will probably be maxed, ill have gear bursting my bank vault,etc.

Note: When I'm soloing slayers or w/e I tend to gather a band of enemies than throw down some AOEs to cook em and I find a quick jump (either straight up or back a bit) helps ALOT with not getting interrupted when scroll healing (in my case scroll harming :P) but again I've never had quicken (which im 90% sure im taking) nor have i tanked a real boss yet (below level 10, the dragons in tor and the reaver don't count :P)

[Ngha]

There are No-ASF tower shields which is free 25% DR if you have both Sheild mastery feats. I mean seriously, 25% DR is alot compared to 15% at endgame

[voodoogroves]

Tumble+scroll is. Especially if you learn how to tumble in a circle.

Tanking when you want to control boss facing makes this pretty annoying, right?

There are No-ASF tower shields which is free 25% DR if you have both Sheild mastery feats. I mean seriously, 25% DR is alot compared to 15% at endgame

I admit, I'm a bit hazy on tower shields but I can't recall any?

[Ngha]

Tanking when you want to control boss facing makes this pretty annoying, right?


I admit, I'm a bit hazy on tower shields but I can't recall any?

In fairness it requires situational tactics, if my voice is working I tell everyone to get to a side, then tumble the other way. Otherwise I have to see where most of the people are and hope the heals get thrown where they're about to be needed.

As for the tower shield I remember some such nonsense, that brought it down to 5% or 0%. But that may be my mind disordering decreases in ASF, logically I can only put together greater twighlight and mithril, but I swear there was another way to lower ASF besides that. I could be wrong, its always a possibility, but for some reason I remember using a Tower Shield with 5% ASF just recently...

[Sierim]

As for the tower shield I remember some such nonsense, that brought it down to 5% or 0%. But that may be my mind disordering decreases in ASF, logically I can only put together greater twighlight and mithril, but I swear there was another way to lower ASF besides that. I could be wrong, its always a possibility, but for some reason I remember using a Tower Shield with 5% ASF just recently...

Perhaps the Tempest Rune of Arcane Sigil and Sovereign Rune of Arcane Sigil? I haven't checked if they work with shields or not, but I assume they would. Combined those with Elven Arcane Fluidity IV and you should be left with 5% failure.

[Ngha]

It don't really play elves so I don't think that was it. but I remembering wowing that I only had 5% ASF.

[Ngha]

Rogue Variant of previous build:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.9.1 
DDO Character Planner Home Page  

Isili Yeshor'Click 
Level 20 Chaotic Good Human Male 
(2 Rogue / 18 Wizard) 
Hit Points: 258 
Spell Points: 1411 

BAB: 10/10/15/20 
Fortitude: 9 
Reflex: 17 
Will: 10 

              Starting      Ending     Feat/Enhancement 
Abilities    Base Stats   Base Stats    Modified Stats 
(28 Point)    (Level 1)    (Level 20)      (Level 20) 
Strength            8              8                 8 
Dexterity          10             10                11 
Constitution       16             16                17 
Intelligence       18             23                27 
Wisdom              8              8                 8 
Charisma            8              8                 8 
 
Level 1 (Rogue) 
Feat: (Selected) Shield Proficiency (General) 
Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness 
Feat: (Automatic) Attack 
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability 
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency 
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Rapier 
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortsword 
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortbow 
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency 
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak 
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak Attack 
Feat: (Automatic) Trapfinding 
 
Level 2 (Wizard) 
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Maximize Spell 
Feat: (Automatic) Dismiss Charm 
Feat: (Automatic) Inscribe Scroll 
Feat: (Automatic) Magical Training 
 
Level 3 (Wizard) 
Feat: (Selected) Insightful Reflexes 
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting 
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder 
Feat: (Automatic) Trip 
 
Level 4 (Wizard) 
Ability Raise: INT 
 
Level 5 (Wizard) 
 
Level 6 (Wizard) 
Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery 
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Spelll Focus: Necromancy 
 
Level 7 (Wizard) 
 
Level 8 (Rogue) 
Ability Raise: INT 
Feat: (Automatic) Evasion 
 
Level 9 (Wizard) 
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness 
 
Level 10 (Wizard) 
 
Level 11 (Wizard) 
 
Level 12 (Wizard) 
Ability Raise: INT 
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Quicken Spell 
Feat: (Selected) Toughness 
 
Level 13 (Wizard) 
 
Level 14 (Wizard) 
 
Level 15 (Wizard) 
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy 
 
Level 16 (Wizard) 
Ability Raise: INT 
 
Level 17 (Wizard) 
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Heighten Spell 
 
Level 18 (Wizard) 
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Mastery 
 
Level 19 (Wizard) 
 
Level 20 (Wizard) 
Ability Raise: INT 
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Constitution I 
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Intelligence I 
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Maximizing I 
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Maximizing II 
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Maximizing III 
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I 
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II 
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III 
Enhancement: Corrosive Spellcasting I 
Enhancement: Corrosive Spellcasting II 
Enhancement: Deadly Acid I 
Enhancement: Deadly Acid II 
Enhancement: Deadly Acid III 
Enhancement: Acid Manipulation I 
Enhancement: Acid Manipulation II 
Enhancement: Acid Manipulation III 
Enhancement: Acid Manipulation IV 
Enhancement: Acid Manipulation V 
Enhancement: Acid Manipulation VI 
Enhancement: Frost Manipulation I 
Enhancement: Frost Manipulation II 
Enhancement: Frost Manipulation III 
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar I 
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar II 
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar III 
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I 
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence I 
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence II 
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence III 
Enhancement: Wizard Wand and Scroll Mastery I 
Enhancement: Wizard Wand and Scroll Mastery II 
Enhancement: Wizard Wand and Scroll Mastery III 
Enhancement: Wizard Wand and Scroll Mastery IV 
Enhancement: Shroud of the Lich 
Enhancement: Wizard Pale Master I 
Enhancement: Wizard Pale Master II 
Enhancement: Wizard Pale Master III 
Enhancement: Shroud of the Vampire 
Enhancement: Shroud of the Wraith

50 less HP and less SP for maxed skills and the ability to do traps.

*EDIT* Also I just noticed that in my previous build I forgot to put level up points in abilities, as well as should have swapped improved mental toughness level with mental toughness level and exchanged it for insightful reflexes.

[voodoogroves]

I'd take out the second toughness for Empower - that's a boost to your DPS and healing.

[Dispel]

Consider http://my.ddo.com/character/sarlona/Dispel with all that HP, -15% ASF on the Epic Envenomed Cloak, Lorrik's Champion, Docent of Defiance.. but only Air Savant with 7/1/1 into Cold and using a Xachosian Eardweller + Green Blade for double-DoT tankage with Eladar's and Niac's, then letting dips go in after each have 3rd tier going.

...all while spamming Arcane Initiate with full Force Amp, to maintain aggro. Best hate-tank I know of.

Too bad I'm a Fire Savant because I <3 Heat Death @ Pale Lavender Ioun Stone wearing Slayer Arrowers and I only have 21 CHA because I haven't hit my 20th Reaver yet for a +3 CHA tome. =o

CHA: 16base +6item +3tome +3enhancements +5leveling +3exceptional =36 +2shipbuff +2yugo =40, then add +2dc_item and +2dc_feats and +1wizpastlife and I'll have a 39 DC but 38 without yugo pots. Can this be easily beaten by other players? Yep. Still good in Epics if PvP doesn't work out? Maybe. Will I go PvE instead of TR'ing once more if the game changes so I'm no longer top doggie? Doubt it.

TL;DR - If you want more SP consider a sorc-hate-tank with the gear/spec I suggested.

[Ngha]

I'd take out the second toughness for Empower - that's a boost to your DPS and healing.

I battled with this for a while. It raises my DPS by another 50%. The mains reasons I chose not to take it were:

-It lowers my HP into a zone I don't want it. Its already borderline and I'm still trying to figure out how to make it higher.

-Too AP intensive, I can use enhancements to up my main spell damages about 20-30& higher which means I'm trading Some super one shots for the ability to make more than a few super two shots. Also, I just think my SP is going to low to be running around with them both on, especially during a boss fight that takes a minute or two.

-Alas, not a Warforged, so it doesn't boost healing. The ability to tell when I'm about to die however, is priceless. Therefore that extra 22 HP puts me just above where I think I have a big enough window for myself where I can escape.

If you can play better than me, and feel confident that the boss you're tanking isn't going to get lucky and bypass your blur and wraithform twice in a row. more power to you. I'm not that confident.

[voodoogroves]

-Alas, not a Warforged, so it doesn't boost healing. The ability to tell when I'm about to die however, is priceless. Therefore that extra 22 HP puts me just above where I think I have a big enough window for myself where I can escape.

I was thinking Death Aura(s) and Neg. Energy Burst

[LeLoric]

I think you are overthinking htis build way too much.

Maqke a lev 20 palemaster all wizard. Live in dw for a couple months till you get the demon consort bracers and torc. Make a con opp. Get a 0% asf shield (best is Epic kundarak shield with one of it's two blue slots for -asf%) If you don't have a mabar robe get the abbot one.

Now you can tank. All these other things that you are doing are really detrimental to your effectiveness while not tanking which would be for4 most of the game.

[voodoogroves]

And, what Leloric said.

I was trying not to be as blunt - recognizing the difference between what you're trying to describe (18/2 split w/ evasion, shield mastery and wraith form) versus what I know is possible and works (straight 20 PM primarily lich form). I've got a full 20 PM that I've tanked with on occasion, but it wasn't built with that as a goal so I've given a fair amount of thought into what I'd do if I wanted to make it more of a specific goal of the build. A pure 20 PM can tank pretty well, in Lich form even. With over 500 HP standard (rage) and over 600 possible (exceptional CON items I don't have yet, +3/4 CON tomes, yugo pots, guild slots, +2 airship con, etc.) the pure wizard isn't hurting. Even a lame shield and no shield mastery allows for solid inbound damage reduction.

Giving up a bit for more defenses sounds like a decent approach ... and an 18/2 does that ... but don't build a doorstop that is going to be better at avoiding some damage but worse at healing it and dishing it out for the rest of the game. You may find then that you can't hold aggro or if you do get an unlucky streak, you can't recover and heal fast enough.

I know what I can do without evasion, insightful reflexes, shield proficiency, shield mastery and improved shield mastery, multiple toughness feats, wraith form and with nominal early-entry epic gear and raid loot. Those other things bring some value, clearly, just be careful of the expense else you may not be satisfied with its performance.

[Diyon]

Not sure if it was already mentioned, but as to holding aggro this item should help:

Anathema
Evocation Focus, Magi, <<Hidden Effect: Increases threat generated from spells by 25%>>

[Failedlegend]

And, what Leloric said.

I was trying not to be as blunt - recognizing the difference between what you're trying to describe (18/2 split w/ evasion, shield mastery and wraith form) versus what I know is possible and works (straight 20 PM primarily lich form). I've got a full 20 PM that I've tanked with on occasion, but it wasn't built with that as a goal so I've given a fair amount of thought into what I'd do if I wanted to make it more of a specific goal of the build. A pure 20 PM can tank pretty well, in Lich form even. With over 500 HP standard (rage) and over 600 possible (exceptional CON items I don't have yet, +3/4 CON tomes, yugo pots, guild slots, +2 airship con, etc.) the pure wizard isn't hurting. Even a lame shield and no shield mastery allows for solid inbound damage reduction.

Giving up a bit for more defenses sounds like a decent approach ... and an 18/2 does that ... but don't build a doorstop that is going to be better at avoiding some damage but worse at healing it and dishing it out for the rest of the game. You may find then that you can't hold aggro or if you do get an unlucky streak, you can't recover and heal fast enough.

I know what I can do without evasion, insightful reflexes, shield proficiency, shield mastery and improved shield mastery, multiple toughness feats, wraith form and with nominal early-entry epic gear and raid loot. Those other things bring some value, clearly, just be careful of the expense else you may not be satisfied with its performance.

I really don't see what big loss their is for this...as noted below I'm only losing Augment Summoning & SF:UMD (All the other feats I would take anyway) which while useful are quite minor I have all the pertinent wizard feats (quicken, maximize,etc.) and I'm not actually "losing" the capstone because I would be going 18/2 Wiz/Rog anyway.

Human Wiz/Rog "Palemaster"

Shield Prof:General (Would be Augment Summoning)
Shield Mastery (Would be SF:UMD)
Toughness
Insightful Reflexes
Extend
SF:Necro
Mental Toughness
Maximize
Heighten
GSF: Necro
Quicken
Empower

Con 18
Int 18
Str or Cha 10/12 (If TR1/2)

[LeLoric]

I really don't see what big loss their is for this...as noted below I'm only losing Augment Summoning & SF:UMD (All the other feats I would take anyway) which while useful are quite minor I have all the pertinent wizard feats (quicken, maximize,etc.) and I'm not actually "losing" the capstone because I would be going 18/2 Wiz/Rog anyway.

Human Wiz/Rog "Palemaster"

Shield Prof:General (Would be Augment Summoning)
Shield Mastery (Would be SF:UMD)
Toughness
Insightful Reflexes
Extend
SF:Necro
Mental Toughness
Maximize
Heighten
GSF: Necro
Quicken
Empower

Con 18
Int 18
Str or Cha 10/12 (If TR1/2)

Splashing for evasion is a big loss. No evasion with insightful is just fine as it reduces all those spells by half allowing your aura to keep up with whatever is left. If its heavy spell dmg a prot from elements covers it. Losing 1 to your dc's, discounts on all metamagics, 2 spell pen, 2 die of dmg on many spells, a fairly large chunk of spell points etc is a big loss.

I am not saying people shouldnt or they are completely gimp making such builds but I just find it isn't needed. My main thoughts on the previous post was concerning things like dumping empower or the likes. You still need to be a caster first on a build like this.