evasion + wraith wizard + shield = tank?

[voodoogroves]

The best shield for this is the Skyvault Shield (drops in Reaver's Fate raid): http://ddowiki.com/page/Skyvault_Shield

No ASF at all!

Or Fanion, pre epic. http://ddowiki.com/page/Fanion

Best choice long term is an epic slotted w/ ASF.

[Therigar]

I have been giving serious consideration to something along this line.

To hold aggro you have to be able to do top level damage either thru your death aura and spell effects or by melee. I thought that a max STR THF build might do the trick with Tenser's running.

Would mean having a friendly divine type with Harm or similar to target heal you because the death aura won't be fast enough. But, still doable I think.

Was also thinking of monk splash to really push the AC envelope but not sure that I can manage all the needed stats. I thought 12/6/2 with a fighter splash would be better just to grab STR and toughness enhancements along with some extra HP.

[voodoogroves]

You'll do more DPS with your spells, I think. An 18th level pale master w/ the mabar stuff has solid SLAs, death aura(s) and necrotic bursts. Toss in some sup pot clickies and DoTs and while you won't beat out a Sorc using their savant DoT, you should be able to easily swap in whatever you need w/o issue (ie, Niac's, Eladar's or even both).

[seobanio]

Didn't read thread, but my guildies and i have all been building fvs and sorcs that are meant to tank.

Two ideas for sorc tank:

1 is just 20 warforged sorc, you can easilly get mid 600s hp with good gear.
The other idea might be more interesting to OP:

18 sorc 1 monk 1fighter. monk extra feat lets you take toughness, fighter gives the simple shield profficiency that is a prereq for the shield mastery feat. It also gives you an extra feat with which to take it.

18 sorc means you can heal yourself and hold aggro. You lose 2 9th lvl spells and the capstone.

[maddmatt70]

I have been giving serious consideration to something along this line.

To hold aggro you have to be able to do top level damage either thru your death aura and spell effects or by melee. I thought that a max STR THF build might do the trick with Tenser's running.

Would mean having a friendly divine type with Harm or similar to target heal you because the death aura won't be fast enough. But, still doable I think.

Was also thinking of monk splash to really push the AC envelope but not sure that I can manage all the needed stats. I thought 12/6/2 with a fighter splash would be better just to grab STR and toughness enhancements along with some extra HP.

Quite honestly you are overthinking this. An AM wf wizard easily held aggro in a tower raid we ran using just DOT spells on Wednesday - this was with him tanking sulu. Meleeing on a caster just detracts from casting spells which is where the real dps lies. Holding aggro is not an issue because spell casters are overpowered in dps terms.

With a torque and concord op item spell points was not an issue on normal or hard. The only thing that maybe an issue is whether a palemaster can heal itself well enough. Warforge Casters with just reconstruct and one other repair spell can easily heal themselves on normal and hard or well with some skill can.

On Horoth 550 hit points is nice for disintegration purposes, but it really is not essential other then on Horoth. Your 12 wizard 8 non wizard build is actually pretty gimp because it will not hold aggro as well as a close to pure wizard or sorc will because their dots do more damage and the like. If the OP wants he can get a real high hit point total on wizard without gimping his/her wizard.

[Therigar]

Good info. Thanks.

[Khellendros13]

I'd like to see more arcane's tanking. I might try next time on ToD if there is another caster for trash.

Maintaining Eladar's and Niac's DoT's and calling the melee in once you have a 3 stack going should be easy enough.

Epic Shield of the Scorpion is a large shield with a blue slot (for -15% ASF), and DR12 Blocking along with Greater Spearblock. That + DoD is DR32 most of the time for a WF arcane tanking. Otherwise DR22 with stoneskin. Add a few more points for BAB bonus (more if you use DP clickies).

[likuei]

The casters I run with have been tanking for years. WF Evasion vs WF pure is a wash, depending on how you are built ... pure requires a higher CON. Average range of hp 450 - 500.

Skyvault was the choice before the shield = +aggro change. Now, several are using Light and Darkness:
http://ddowiki.com/page/Light_and_Da...nsuppressed%29
for a little more DR

The only change recently? Its alot easier to hold aggro for casters with just DoT and SLAs. We had a couple of issues in the past where we would have to back off periodically for the caster to regain aggro.

[Enoach]

I am also preping my Wizard to be able to Tank. I'm a Helf Pale Master.

Using Both DoTs would allow a Sorcerer or Wizard to be able to maintain a very high damage output that continues to hit the boss even when they Teleport or Fling you away.

However, I do concede that the Sorcerer's curse ability plus their capstone gives them a very hard to compete with damage output as compared to a wizards output. The advantage a wizard has is flexabilty in spell selection. More Buffs/Debuffs when appropriate.

Another advantage of a PM is the Demon Consort Bracers, since undead are immune to the side effect of using this item. It provides an additional form of temporary hitpoints, damaging gaurd and a potential to curse the attacker.

Since only positive healing is negated by the Healing curse, harm/inflict and auras do allow for getting hit points back while cursed. The disadvantage is unlike reconstruct scrolls there are only two places Harm scrolls can be found. 1) Loot 2) The Pale Master Only turn in behind the Palm. Both are not garuntees. That means us PM's may need to provide a stack to our divine sisters and brothers to help reduce SP costs as I'm sure most have never seen more then 2 or 3 of these scrolls in there pack and only if they forgot to sell over a course of 12 high end quests.

[jojje_b]

zaxza's suggestion is the real deal, ive played alot with their guild and they have wizards/sorcs/fvs soloing edq and fvs tanking horoth in elite tod and they have experience, ive yet so see the sorc tanks in action though.

myself im playing a halfling pm wiz ice/elec specced and ive stumbled into the tanking thingy myself and since im not "built" for that purpose im very gear dependent...

that said i can tank anything except for the conjoined abashai devastator in epic chrono because of the sunburst and horoth in tod and his disintegrates. i may have 560+ hp but im still nowhere near as reliable as a normal tank when it comes to those two bosses.

i can however tank anything else in the game on any difficulty without needing any heals at all, while keeping the full casting potential of any other wizard (dc's all in the 42-40 range with no true reincarnations).
ive never had an issue with loosing aggro, even when ive had people trying to steal aggro on purpose with hate gear and all that. and now that i found out that the anathema grants me 25% more hate on spells im even more confident.

im thinking of going 18/2 wiz/monk for evasion, saves and more hp and if i do ill "probably" be able to tank/solo anything in the game that would make me less effective as a caster though

so a wizard tanking is certainly doable, but if were talking THE BEST tank i would probably bet on the zerg's sorc build or a favoured soul tank. there might be someone who thought of something i havent but these are the best suggestions i can think of.

some people were talking about the best shield and that is, by far, the lorriks champion. an insane 15 dr and only 15% asf that can be fixed by a blue/green augument slot. skyvault and light and darkness are pretty terrible since they only provide 6 dr.

as for the op's build i just to point out some details u missed, u say you loose 2 feats but its actually 4 feats. mental toughness is needed for wraith(otherwise useless feat imo) an shield mastery requires shield proficiency. though some may argue that insightfull reflexes should be taken anyways and is thus not a "lost" feat. monk also only gives you 2 extra toughness feats(imo the only decent of the monk skills) but since u wont have to use one of your regular feats for toughness that helps saving one of those "lost" feats. getting human is also a great idea for the extrafeat, int and con(if u get ALL the int gear and tomes humans are actually equal to drow in dc's)
i also prefer lich when tanking because of the 40 extra hp and temp hp proc


also, halflings rule

[voodoogroves]

Here's a Wiz18/Monk2 possible layout

Wizard (4) - Quicken, Extend, Empower, Maximize
Monk (2) - Toughness, SOMETHING
Normal (7) SF Necro, GSF Necro, Heighten, Insightful Reflexes, Mental Toughness, Shield Prof, Shield Mastery

A Wiz 17 / Monk 2 / Fighter 1 misses PM3 but saves some feats

Wizard (4) - Quicken, Extend, Empower, Maximize
Monk (2) - Toughness, SOMETHING
Fighter (1) - Shield Mastery
Normal (7) SF Necro, GSF Necro, Heighten, Insightful Reflexes, Mental Toughness, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Pen (or PL Wizard)

[Ngha]

Here, Tweak to your preferences at will:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.9.1 
DDO Character Planner Home Page  

Wiz Tank  
Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male 
(2 Monk / 18 Wizard) 
Hit Points: 309 
Spell Points: 1489 

BAB: 10/10/15/20 
Fortitude: 13 
Reflex: 10 
Will: 14 

              Starting      Ending     Feat/Enhancement 
Abilities    Base Stats   Base Stats    Modified Stats 
(28 Point)    (Level 1)    (Level 20)      (Level 20) 
Strength            8             10                10 
Dexterity          10             12                12 
Constitution       16             18                19 
Intelligence       18             20                24 
Wisdom              8             10                10 
Charisma            8             10                10 

Tomes Used 
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7 
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7 
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7 
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7 
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7 
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7 
 
              Starting      Ending    Feat/Enhancement 
             Base Skills  Base Skills  Modified Skills 
Skills       (Level 1)    (Level 20)      (Level 20) 
Balance            4              5                5 
Bluff              -1             0                0 
Concentration      7              8                9 
Diplomacy          -1             0                0 
Disable Device     n/a            n/a              n/a 
Haggle             -1             0                0 
Heal               -1             0                0 
Hide               0              1                1 
Intimidate         -1             0                0 
Jump               -1             0                0 
Listen             -1             0                0 
Move Silently      0              1                1 
Open Lock          n/a            n/a              n/a 
Perform            n/a            n/a              n/a 
Repair             4              7                7 
Search             4              7                7 
Spot               -1             0                0 
Swim               -1             0                0 
Tumble             4              5                5 
Use Magic Device   1              11               11 
 
Level 1 (Monk) 
Skill: Balance (+4) 
Skill: Concentration (+4) 
Skill: Tumble (+4) 
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2) 
Feat: (Selected) Shield Proficiency (General) 
Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness 
Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness 
Feat: (Automatic) AC Bonus 
Feat: (Automatic) Attack 
Feat: (Automatic) Disciple of Breezes 
Feat: (Automatic) Disciple of Candles 
Feat: (Automatic) Disciple of Pebbles 
Feat: (Automatic) Disciple of Puddles 
Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Kama 
Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Shuriken 
Feat: (Automatic) Finishing Moves 
Feat: (Automatic) Flurry of Blows 
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability 
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Handaxe 
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Club 
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Dagger 
Feeat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Heavy Crossbow 
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Light Crossbow 
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Quarterstaff 
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Unarmed 
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak 
Feat: (Automatic) Unarmed Strike 
 
Level 2 (Wizard) 
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5) 
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Maximize Spell 
Feat: (Automatic) Dismiss Charm 
Feat: (Automatic) Inscribe Scroll 
Feat: (Automatic) Magical Training 
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Throwing Dagger 
 
Level 3 (Wizard) 
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5) 
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness 
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting 
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder 
Feat: (Automatic) Trip 
 
Level 4 (Wizard) 
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5) 
 
Level 5 (Wizard) 
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5) 
 
Level 6 (Wizard) 
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5) 
Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery 
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Spell Focus: Necromancy 
 
Level 7 (Wizard) 
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5) 
 
Level 8 (Monk) 
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5) 
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness 
Feat: (Automatic) Evasion 
Feat: (Automatic) Meditation 
 
Level 9 (Wizard) 
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5) 
Feat: (Selected) Empower Spell 
 
Level 10 (Wizard) 
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5) 
 
Level 11 (Wizard) 
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5) 
 
Level 12 (Wizard) 
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5) 
Feat: (Selected) Improved Mental Toughness 
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Quicken Spell 
 
Level 13 (Wizard) 
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5) 
 
Level 14 (Wizard) 
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5) 
 
Level 15 (Wizard) 
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5) 
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy 
 
Level 16 (Wizard) 
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5) 
 
Level 17 (Wizard) 
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5) 
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Heighten Spell 
 
Level 18 (Wizard) 
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5) 
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Mastery 
 
Level 19 (Wizard) 
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5) 
 
Level 20 (Wizard) 
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Intelligence I 
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Constitution I 
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Empowering I 
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Empowering II 
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Empowering III 
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Maximizing I 
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Maximizing II 
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Maximizing III 
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise I 
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I 
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II 
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III 
Enhancement: Acid Manipulation I 
Enhancement: Acid Manipulation II 
Enhancement: Acid Manipulation III 
Enhancement: Acid Manipulation IV 
Enhancement: Acid Manipulation V  
Enhancement: Frost Manipulation I 
Enhancement: Frost Manipulation II 
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar I 
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar II 
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar III 
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence I 
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence II 
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence III 
Enhancement: Wizard Wand and Scroll Mastery I 
Enhancement: Wizard Wand and Scroll Mastery II 
Enhancement: Wizard Wand and Scroll Mastery III 
Enhancement: Shroud of the Lich 
Enhancement: Wizard Pale Master I 
Enhancement: Wizard Pale Master II 
Enhancement: Wizard Pale Master III 
Enhancement: Shroud of the Vampire 
Enhancement: Shroud of the Wraith

Need some gear, including HP/SP, reflex save, and UMD gear to scroll harm/inflict wounds on yourself. Undead forms are automatically Heavy Fort. Human and Monk for feat space.

*EDIT* You could swap improved shield proficiency for insightful reflexes, and take it earlier.

[voodoogroves]

I wouldn't bother with Improved Mental Toughness; you do need Insightful Reflexes.

I'm also not so sure on Improved Shield Mastery. Heighten, I think, would be my choice.

[Ngha]

I wouldn't bother with Improved Mental Toughness; you do need Insightful Reflexes.

I'm also not so sure on Improved Shield Mastery. Heighten, I think, would be my choice.

Well, its a building stigma of mine to get max possible HP and SP possible while still fulfilling the build goals.

I would not drop heighten. Improved shields proficiency is 5% less damage, for someone that wanted this I'd say drop improved mental toughness.

[voodoogroves]

Well, its a building stigma of mine to get max possible HP and SP possible while still fulfilling the build goals.

I would not drop heighten. Improved shields proficiency is 5% less damage, for someone that wanted this I'd say drop improved mental toughness.

Ah maybe I read your post wrong. I thought I saw Improved Mental Toughness but I didn't see Heighten. My bad.

[Failedlegend]

Here's a Wiz18/Monk2 possible layout

Wizard (4) - Quicken, Extend, Empower, Maximize
Monk (2) - Toughness, SOMETHING
Normal (7) SF Necro, GSF Necro, Heighten, Insightful Reflexes, Mental Toughness, Shield Prof, Shield Mastery

A Wiz 17 / Monk 2 / Fighter 1 misses PM3 but saves some feats

Wizard (4) - Quicken, Extend, Empower, Maximize
Monk (2) - Toughness, SOMETHING
Fighter (1) - Shield Mastery
Normal (7) SF Necro, GSF Necro, Heighten, Insightful Reflexes, Mental Toughness, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Pen (or PL Wizard)

I really don't think monk is worth it I'd say drop Heighten, Quicken or Empower (replace with toughness) and go 2 rogue being able to Max Intimidate and UMD is huge on a build that's so reliant on itself.

Alternatively you could go human and take toughness as your human feat than you lose nothing to gain alot. Although the +5 to all saves from the H-Elf Dilly is mighty tempting for a underdog tanker like this.

Frankly the ONLY issue I see for a well built well played PM Tank is non-believers.

Note: If you have an over abundance of +4 tomes, your a TR2+ (3Wiz, 3 Barb, 3 FvS, 3 Sorc would be optimal but it's largely unnecessary :P) and can somehow get Int, Dex & Wis (with a healthy serving of Con) all really high allowing you too add wicked AC to the mix than I'd consider Monk.

[Ngha]

Purge the unbelievers.

This just in, Beware of the PM tank army coming to your servers soon. Group them, or call yourselves gimps.

[voodoogroves]

I really don't think monk is worth it I'd say drop Heighten, Quicken or Empower (replace with toughness) and go 2 rogue being able to Max Intimidate and UMD is huge on a build that's so reliant on itself.

Alternatively you could go human and take toughness as your human feat than you lose nothing to gain alot. Although the +5 to all saves from the H-Elf Dilly is mighty tempting for a underdog tanker like this.

Frankly the ONLY issue I see for a well built well played PM Tank is non-believers.

Note: If you have an over abundance of +4 tomes, your a TR2+ (3Wiz, 3 Barb, 3 FvS, 3 Sorc would be optimal but necessary :P) and can somehow get Int, Dex & Wis (with a healthy serving of Con) all really high allowing you too add wicked AC to the mix than I'd consider Monk.

You keep bringing up UMD - I'm not seeing it. UMD and Intimidate isn't all that, but I could see going for two feats. You're not going to be hitting the super huge intimidate numbers anyway w/o the PRE and other class boosts, so it's not like you'll be non-fail on the bosses that matter ... you're only using it to off-intimidate and get the short term hate boost. You're not going to be boss tanking trying to UMD a harm scroll to self heal either.

My Wiz20 pale master is a passing tank; getting a few more points of UMD and Intimidate isn't that much of a gain.

Dropping Empower or Quicken, I think, is suicide. You're going to hold threat with your spells - you don't want to lose that damage (Empower) and you sure as heck don't want to fail timely Necrotic Bursts (Quicken) ... and you're not boss tanking all the time so you need some use (Heighten), espescially since you're already shorting yourself the capstone.


Dunno. I've run a number of arcane tanky types and a wiz/rogue; my experience tells me Monk is more useful for this role. A few skills (rogue) versus two feats, animal path (HP likely), stance possibilities ... to mean leans to monk.

[Failedlegend]

You keep bringing up UMD - I'm not seeing it. UMD and Intimidate isn't all that, but I could see going for two feats. You're not going to be hitting the super huge intimidate numbers anyway w/o the PRE and other class boosts, so it's not like you'll be non-fail on the bosses that matter ... you're only using it to off-intimidate and get the short term hate boost. You're not going to be boss tanking trying to UMD a harm scroll to self heal either.

My Wiz20 pale master is a passing tank; getting a few more points of UMD and Intimidate isn't that much of a gain.

Dropping Empower or Quicken, I think, is suicide. You're going to hold threat with your spells - you don't want to lose that damage (Empower) and you sure as heck don't want to fail timely Necrotic Bursts (Quicken) ... and you're not boss tanking all the time so you need some use (Heighten), especially since you're already shorting yourself the capstone.


Dunno. I've run a number of arcane tanky types and a wiz/rogue; my experience tells me Monk is more useful for this role. A few skills (rogue) versus two feats, animal path (HP likely), stance possibilities ... to mean leans to monk.

This is proof the devs are doing their jobs right both versions have advantages and disadvantages that various players may or may not weigh differently.

Oh and I personally wouldn't drop heighten either...as far as quicken and empower never had em on my casters...never see a reco or neg burst fail....so between that and quicken I'd probably drop quicken or go human...the latter is probably the better choice since your going to be tanking quicken might actually come into play.

Although I question this "You're not going to be boss tanking trying to UMD a harm scroll to self heal either." why not??

Monk doesn't give stance possibilities as Shields negate that, and the animal path is only +5 HP.

So really (unless you can get Dex/Wis high enough for top tier AC without compromising Int/Con) its an extra toughness or two (as the other monk feats are nigh useless) versus Maxed UMD & Intimidate (11 vs. 23)

So again its mostly personal preference.

the anathema grants me 25% more hate on spells im even more confident.

I wonder if there's any ohter items that have that effect cause thats AWESOME!!

[maddmatt70]

This is proof the devs are doing their jobs right both versions have advantages and disadvantages that various players may or may not weigh differently.

Oh and I personally wouldn't drop heighten either...as far as quicken and empower never had em on my casters...never see a reco or neg burst fail....so between that and quicken I'd probably drop quicken or go human...the latter is probably the better choice since your going to be tanking quicken might actually come into play.

Although I question this "You're not going to be boss tanking trying to UMD a harm scroll to self heal either." why not??

Monk doesn't give stance possibilities as Shields negate that, and the animal path is only +5 HP.

So really (unless you can get Dex/Wis high enough for top tier AC without compromising Int/Con) its an extra toughness or two (as the other monk feats are nigh useless) versus Maxed UMD & Intimidate (11 vs. 23)

So again its mostly personal preference.

Come on man.. You dont use a harm scroll to heal yourself. First of all you can not buy harm scrolls in the stores of DDO and second of all scrolls can get interrupted. I do not understand what you are trying to say in the rest of this passage. I really don't so read over what you post and think if it makes sense in terms of DDO. Monk is two feats vs. what does rogue give you? Probably the best thing rogue gives you is the possibility of taking the hamstring feat which requires rogue levels and works on bosses. Intimidate does not work the way you think it does and has been pointed out you almost certainly can not get an intimidate high enough for bosses on a wizard. On a sorc yeah intimidate makes some sense but on a wizard none basically. What do you want a high umd for? Really think about it man before you post.