Is a bow ranger ever truly viable?

[Rogann]

The only thing that makes a good ranger is knowing when to switch to twf after manyshot is done.

[Sarisa]

Here are some examples of where a PROPERLY built and played archer shines.

• Invaders - Long hallways, dangerous mobs, little in the way of arcane or divine CC works due to the huge amount of beholders. Paralyzing bows with Improved Precise Shot makes the quest FAR easier. In addition, strength damage bows can drain a Beholder's low amount of strength before it can usually even hit you with one of its rays. When a Beholder is drained, it's vulnerable to extra damage (formerly autocrit) and cannot use its eyebeams. It can still antimagic you, but not being drained or disintegrated makes a world of difference.
• Sins of Attrition - Paralyzers don't work as well here due to their massive saves, but with IPS and Manyshot, you should be able to get at least a few of them disabled. This is also a place, where if you are capable of taking care of yourself, kiting a few mobs away from the group safely is the best thing to do for the group. Also, due to the narrow hallways and large number of trash mobs, Manyshot+IPS+Slayer Arrows can add up to a great deal of DPS.
• Outdoors quests - Perch, snipe casters, pull small groups to the party, and more.
• Titan raid - Improved Precise Shot is the fastest and easiest way to take down the tops of the pillars.
• Epic Demon Queen - Manyshot Lailat to get her into the middle as soon as possible.

There are more examples, but these come to mind as places where well played ranged characters can make the quest much easier.

In many raid situations, and quests in tighter quarters, it's usually best to Manyshot when it's off timer, due to the massive burst damage it can do; then switch to melee weapons.

In the past, certain raid bosses, like Suulomades, had an extreme hatred for ranged attacks. Even without Manyshot, Sully could be pulled off a high hate Barbarian tank by a bow. This is usually bad news for most groups, because the whole point of ToD and VoD is controlled aggro. I don't know if this is still true in the current game, but it's far safer to be careful.

Don't be a stereotypical squishy, kiting, strength dumping, no fort, AA that causes more problems for the group than they help.

There are times when ranged is best. Everyone should carry a ranged weapon, even if they're melee spec'ed.
There are times when melee is best. Everyone should carry melee weapons, even if range spec'ed.
There are times when shield blocking is best. Everyone should carry a shield.
There are times when you need to take care of yourself. Everyone should have some form of self healing, and use it in emergencies.

[aristarchus1000]

The only thing that makes a good ranger is knowing when to switch to twf after manyshot is done.

Basically this. Bow ranger is truly viable 20 seconds out over every 120 seconds. The CHARACTER overall becomes viable when it has a reasonable alternative option for the other 100 seconds.

[Fetchi]

>> Arcane Archer - Fun to play, large damage output and may even dominate a party in a dungeon. However this is only true at low to mid levels approximately levels 2-13 or so.

The problem is at higher levels they still have the damage output but the monster types change and some dungeons get smaller. End game monsters like devils, orthons teleport right on top of you and make it difficult to range (even with point blank shot). Most arcanes DO NOT invest in TWF either do to not being able to pread around their feats or the allure of the damage from range is to much to resist.

End result I deletd this character at level 18 or so.

On the contrary. It is not until you've reached level 18 and have access to slayers arrows and a lightning II bow that you finally become worth a party slot. It's unfortunate that you deleted your ranger once he finally got to the fun part. From levels 1-17 your better off just two-weapon fighting. Unless you are a TR with access to your lighting II bow at level 12, and still you're only good dps when manyshot it up. You will still kill things faster in melee when manyshot is not on.

As others have stated, you have to know when to pull out the bow and when to melee. Its really simple: pull out bow when manyshot is ready. Melee the rest of the time.

Its unfortunate because no one tells the caster they can only cast spells for 20 seconds out of every 2 minutes, the rest of the time they need to switch to a different play style and melee or something.

Its unfortunate because no one tells the barbarian he can only rage and swing his axe for 20 seconds out of every 2 minutes, the rest of the time they need to switch to a different play style and use a throwing weapon or something.

But if you play an archer, you get to play what you want for 20 seconds out of every 2 minutes, the rest of the time you have to play a melee. Then you start wondering why you didn't just roll up a fighter who sometimes uses a bow, or a multiclass character who can range when manyshot it up, then switch to something a lot more helpful to the party.

Because the bottom line is, if your not manyshotting and you have a bow equiped, your wasting your time because your dps is pitiful.

Just my 2 cp (also with 6 years of ranger experience )

P.S. My negative attitude toward ranged combat is only because I really love the play style and I want the developers to make it more fun.

[Thrudh]

Its unfortunate because no one tells the caster they can only cast spells for 20 seconds out of every 2 minutes, the rest of the time they need to switch to a different play style and melee or something.

Its unfortunate because no one tells the barbarian he can only rage and swing his axe for 20 seconds out of every 2 minutes, the rest of the time they need to switch to a different play style and use a throwing weapon or something.

But it's not 20 seconds you're good as everyone else (like a caster or a barbarian), and for the other 100 seconds you suck...

For 20 seconds you do more damage than ANYONE (maybe a sorc completely empying his SP bar could out DPS an Arcane Archer with slayer arrows hitting multiple targets with manyshot and IPS, but then the sorc is done, while you're back in business in 100 seconds).

We COULD make archery more useful so that it can be used 100% of the time, but then we'd have to nerf manyshot...

I don't think that would be a good trade...

20 seconds of absolute dominating DPS (From RANGE, where the bad guy can't hit back) is extremely useful in many situations.

I'm willing to switch to melee for 100 seconds, so I can keep the power of 20 seconds of manyshot. I find that more fun than just a steady decent DPS all the time like barbarians get.

[Thlargir]

The thing I've always kind of wondered based on the ranger capstone is whether a bow ranger is EVER viable,...

Totally depends on what you mean by viable.

My first character was a 28pt elf ranger AA who I decided I had to solo to cap after feeling so much love on the forums for my choice. Once I started doing raids I quickly found that the questions regarding the build were to be found mainly on the forums and that most PUGs did not care.

There are not that many characters that can save a shroud run single handed after a lag spike has put the healers and everyone else on their backs.

So to answer your question, if by viable, you mean great fun to play, able to get to cap and be useful, and have odd moments of true heroics - then sure, viable as all get out. However, if by viable, you mean the awe of your friends and neighbours who constantly tell you they can't believe they didn't choose that route, then not so much.

[grodon9999]

But it's not 20 seconds you're good as everyone else (like a caster or a barbarian), and for the other 100 seconds you suck...

For 20 seconds you do more damage than ANYONE (maybe a sorc completely empying his SP bar could out DPS an Arcane Archer with slayer arrows hitting multiple targets with manyshot and IPS, but then the sorc is done, while you're back in business in 100 seconds).

We COULD make archery more useful so that it can be used 100% of the time, but then we'd have to nerf manyshot...

I don't think that would be a good trade...

20 seconds of absolute dominating DPS (From RANGE, where the bad guy can't hit back) is extremely useful in many situations.

I'm willing to switch to melee for 100 seconds, so I can keep the power of 20 seconds of manyshot. I find that more fun than just a steady decent DPS all the time like barbarians get.

Manyshot should be a Stance like Stalwart/Dos that ends if you move. I can see legolas firing 4 arrows at once or firing while jumping around the room. Firing 4 arrows at once AND jumpin around the room just ain' gonna happen.

the lack of mobility and potential disaster with certain aggro situations are the balance

[Kushiel]

::Snip::

If pure bow ranger is truly Viable, are there any good builds? Is it possible to be a good AC toon so you don't have to bounce away from enemies constantly?

There are some great bows in the game now, and some great armours for high dex users who aren't monks. Gear is no real issue for this. I've access to all the good bows already.

But mostly you have to find the "right" kind of people to play with through the various quests at the various difficulties - which is amazingly, frellingly, wretchedly hard to do for any given mission/day/server.

Or you have to be content to go solo at a slower pace and play the game (and the missions you can) the way you like. It's possible. It's even fun if you're of the mindset to do it that way (and have enough experience as other builds/classes to know which content you can work through with enjoyment).

It's not optimal. It may not be what you enjoy or want from an MMORPG. In the cases where you don't really want to set aside your ranged weapon and get involved in the melee, you can also have some success and contribute to the overall party completion by targeting wand-whip heals and important clicks on people as you see they would benefit from blindness/curse/fatigue removals, etc. and bringing a *real* ability for looking after the "team" to the current adventure.

The trick - the place to keep your head and heart - is having a thick enough sense of yourself to play in the way that brings you the most fun.

[Glenalth]

As others have stated, you have to know when to pull out the bow and when to melee. Its really simple: pull out bow when manyshot is ready. Melee the rest of the time.

It's not that simple. There are plenty of situations where a bow is going to be better than melee on either the damage or tactics side of things even without Manyshot. The concept of learning what these breaking points are for your character eludes a lot of players and involves some maths in many cases... Hmm, I feel a "when to pew pew pew" spreadsheet coming on.

We COULD make archery more useful so that it can be used 100% of the time, but then we'd have to nerf manyshot...

That or killing IPS are my biggest fears from a ranged pass right now. At this point all I want is for the speed increases to work correctly.

[Fetchi]

But it's not 20 seconds you're good as everyone else (like a caster or a barbarian), and for the other 100 seconds you suck...

For 20 seconds you do more damage than ANYONE (maybe a sorc completely empying his SP bar could out DPS an Arcane Archer with slayer arrows hitting multiple targets with manyshot and IPS, but then the sorc is done, while you're back in business in 100 seconds).

We COULD make archery more useful so that it can be used 100% of the time, but then we'd have to nerf manyshot...

I don't think that would be a good trade...

20 seconds of absolute dominating DPS (From RANGE, where the bad guy can't hit back) is extremely useful in many situations.

I'm willing to switch to melee for 100 seconds, so I can keep the power of 20 seconds of manyshot. I find that more fun than just a steady decent DPS all the time like barbarians get.

I can agree with that. You bring up a good point. But, think about the entire leveling progression of an arcane archer, not just level 18+. You only have god like DPS with manyshot, slayer arrows, and an endgame bow hopefully by level 18.

But every other class is effective with their playstyle through out the entire life of the character. It seems to me archery could be improved over all, from levels 1-20; not just in terms of dps, but in other ways as well.

I could get behind a change for manyshot and/or ips if that meant the the playstyle of ranged combat would become meaningful and viable in more than just 10% of situations.

On a side note: It makes sense to me that Arcane Archers should be more versatile with their imbued arrows. Arcane Archers should be more about crowd control and and other spell like abilities with their arrows. Deepwood snipers should be king of ranged dps.

[Thrudh]

Manyshot should be a Stance like Stalwart/Dos that ends if you move. I can see legolas firing 4 arrows at once or firing while jumping around the room. Firing 4 arrows at once AND jumpin around the room just ain' gonna happen.

the lack of mobility and potential disaster with certain aggro situations are the balance

That's a cool idea but too exploitable... Shield wall, manyshot 100% from the back...

Surround Harry, manyshot all day long (maybe if you got rid of evasion too when in Manyshot mode it would be balanced)

Nah, I'd hate to lose the ability to kite a boss around with manyshot running. You'd destroy solo archer play with a change like that.

[Thrudh]

I can agree with that. You bring up a good point. But, think about the entire leveling progression of an arcane archer, not just level 18+. You only have god like DPS with manyshot, slayer arrows, and an endgame bow hopefully by level 18.

But every other class is effective with their playstyle through out the entire life of the character. It seems to me archery could be improved over all, from levels 1-20; not just in terms of dps, but in other ways as well.

I found my AA to be weak until level 10, when I got 3 arrows from Manyshot, then it was worthwhile... It scales well... I was able to solo equal-level quests even before slayer arrows.

I could get behind a change for manyshot and/or ips if that meant the the playstyle of ranged combat would become meaningful and viable in more than just 10% of situations.

I could too, but sometimes it's a dangerous game to let the devs tinker...

Deepwood snipers should be king of ranged dps.

Oh they definitely need to do something with that PrE.

[sirdanile]

Ranged Alacrity in DDO is fairly messed up, the Ranger Capstone for one reason or another translates in to somewhere under 12.5% speed bonus, though most simply explain it as half the advertised value.

To clarify this point, The reason why speed bonii with bows and most other ranged weapons are effectively cut in half from the stated numerical value is because Shooting and Reloading are seperate actions, speed bonii only affect the shooting part of the action and NOT the reload part of the action.

I remember an Eladrin quote a bit ago that says he was messing around with the shoot and reload action for repeating crossbows specifically and possibly other ranged weapons by making them one fluid action, if this gets implemented it ~SHOULD~ make the speed boosts full value again... and it might accidentally boost the speed increases from rapid fire shot and rapid reload and quickdraw depending on which weapon(s) you're shooting/throwing :P

Keep in mind also that there is much speculation that update 11 will contain a ranged combat passover akin to the spell combat passover of update 9... scouts motto is be prepared... so be prepared with a capped ranger!

[Glenalth]

Deepwood snipers should be king of ranged dps.

Single target ranged DPS, yes.

I get a feeling that we're going to see something more like the Rogue Assassin that works at range though.

[Gleep_Wurp]

mine is a capped 32 point elven pure ranger.aa. 400 hp 58ac s+b.first toon i made back in 06. lit2 bow and 2 lit 2 rapiers 2nd tier. hes lacking some gear (no dt) and with only 400 hp can be hard to play.really not a toon for everyone,takes a bit to learn aggro control.currently no umd which hurts a little.but i have fun with him and can easily solo the new content norm/hard with hierling.basically if something does make it to melee range i cut it down with rapiers

[Darkrok]

There's been a lot of great info in the thread so far so I won't go over the same ground again (at least not completely).

Many toons as built do one thing, maybe two, well enough to contribute to a party. It's possible to build toons that can fill many roles but the most common characters you'll come across can only fill a role or two.

Rangers are more versatile than that and all the AA/archery toys open up another role, at least in the mid-level game - that of providing a high level of crowd control. A good player with solid positioning and tab-targeting skills can crowd control more effectively than a mid-level caster (when casters are still single-target holding or web'ing for CC). AA's can use IPS to CC multiple enemies, only spend time rather than sp's to do their CC, and can do it at great range. In many mid-level quests paralyzing bows are exceptionally good CC. If the group's doing fine, the cleric's sp's are solid, then put away the bow any time your not off timer for Manyshot. But if you're in a group that's struggling at all then stepping back and controlling the enemies can be a bigger contribution than pure dps.

[krackythehoodedone]

I will continue to maintain that a well played ranged toon is worth his spot in any group in the game including Epics.

Yes they will use weapons at some point, that is unavoidable because arrows just don't work against certain things.

And yes there are ways to play a ranged toon that can make both you and the class unpopular.

However good use of Imp precise shot and the targetting system, a bit of the ''old'' grey matter and some specialist bows and you can be highly effective nearly all the time.

With manyshot that ''effective'' upgrades to decisive.

Their are some builds apart from your 20th ranger that can do ''killer'' damage with a bow such as the FB11 Barb Archer.The Helves Angel and my favourite the old ''crit rage'' Bowbarian.

Honestly a 1000 DPS plus is nothing for these builds during manyshot and not against immobilized mobs

And i really wish that the people who posted in these ''ranged'' threads would let the readers know wether they have ever played a ranged toon before.

I suspect that a lot of have not. Which to my mind calls into question their ability to make salient points?on this prticular topic?

[grodon9999]

I get a feeling that we're going to see something more like the Rogue Assassin that works at range though.

i will so LR into that to try it out, might be fun as hell!

[Talon_Moonshadow]

DPS is "NOT" the only criteria to use in determining when to use ranged or melee btw.

[Fetchi]

DPS is "NOT" the only criteria to use in determining when to use ranged or melee btw.

It's not?

When I think about pullling out my bow, its only to increase my dps. And this can only be achieved when many shot is active or the highly situational circumstance of enemies being lined up. I say highly situational because I play in a guild and we usually have a full group. It's very easy to line up enemies when soloing.

What other criteria are you refering to in a hack-n-slash game that is entirely based around damage per second?