Is a bow ranger ever truly viable?

[Maxson]

Something I've always wanted in DDO but have been continually discouraged from is a Deepwood Sniper, I know they're **** and the only real excuse for using one is a rogue mechanic splash/DWS for longer ranged sneak attacks.

The thing I've always kind of wondered based on the ranger capstone is whether a bow ranger is EVER viable, a 25% attack speed boost pretty much directly translates into a 25% DPS boost in a game where active abilities are uncommon, how do the numbers stack up taking this into account? I've noticed that pure rangers are exceedingly rare, and bow rangers are practically a joke, I admit I would likely be an Arcane archer until DWS is either vastly improved, or at least gets levels II & III...

The obvious advantage of a ranger is that even though you're a bow user, you can at least pretend to TWF through the early levels where your bow DPS is abysmal and just tends to annoy the party as the melee chases the mob you've aggroed round the room while you attempt to avoid it.

If pure bow ranger is truly Viable, are there any good builds? Is it possible to be a good AC toon so you don't have to bounce away from enemies constantly?

There are some great bows in the game now, and some great armours for high dex users who aren't monks. Gear is no real issue for this. I've access to all the good bows already.

[Koshy11]

1st. the capstone only equates to 12.5%

The blanket range attack speed nerf since beta was applied AFTER all other boosts is placed under consideration. With no speed boost whatsoever, you're sitting at -50%, when you consider a sword and board to be 0%

Abbot quiver / black dragon armor = 10%
AA TOD set = 10%
Ranger capstone = 25%
That equates to 45% divide that by half and you get 22.5% boost in speed.

If you add haste its a grand total of 50% range attack speed boost (Unsure which one it doesn't stack with) which still equates to 25% boost.

That still puts you at best 25% behind a sword and board swinger.

Several possible builds which sadly none are pure rangers that could make range pew pew a bit more fun, is a possible

1/rogue, 1 fighter/monk, 18 ranger build (we know what this one is called) Which has a possibility of workable AC, self healing capability and buffing like any rangers would (that's if you didn't dump wis)

the infamous helves angels build,(12 fighter/6 ranger/2monk) which seems to give you the highest burst of manyshots you could ever hope for, but I consider this NOT a ranger but a ranged fighter build.

In short, you are expected to put away your bow from time to time. its called a ranger not an archer for a good reason, bows aren't our only tool when we're given the twf feat line for free.

There's also the prospect of a singing archer, an AA bard. This I am not too sure of when it don't even seem to have space for imp. precision shot.

Hope that helps.

[NexEverto]

Koshy summed it up pretty accurately, but I'm going to simplify it even more before adding my thoughts. A 'Bow Ranger' is only ever truly viable when you understand the aim of your the build, the builds limitations, as well as your personal limitations as a player. To play an effective Bow Ranger, as a player, you'll find that you'll have to be far more away of whats going on in the quest than any other DPS class, bar maybe monks.

Most viable Bow Rangers, or currently, Arcane Archers, will specialize in both Melee AND Ranged. It is one of the only classes than have the ability to duel spec with two main weapon focuses. People don't seem to realize that Improved Precise Shot, not just Manyshot, means you can do more damage than a Strength Based Khopesh Rogue in the right situations. Manyshot is argued to be one of the highest burst DPS functions in DDO, and Improved Precise Shot is the one of the few Non-Caster AOE damage abilities in the game so I don't need to explain anything there. Shooting across a line of held mobs however, will often have you putting out more damage than anyone else in the group, but, unlike everyone else it wont be focused on one target. Obviously, against single targets such as most raid bosses (unless you like shooting the trash too), this does leave most Ranged uses DPS as something to be desired.

If you play a Bard, or as I've been seeing more of recently, a Cleric or Favored Soul who uses a Bow for damage it can also be a very effective combination. It allows players who like to keep busy to sit back away from the fight whilst still healing and contributing some amount of DPS to hopefully get the job done quicker. Once again though, a players skill can often be make or break in these situations, because a simple moment of ill thought can have half a party dead because of a missed heal.

I recommend to most people who ask me about being an Arcane Archer the Helves Angels Build mentioned above, whilst I personally don't like the Build (Though I don't argue its results, its just become to 'Cookie Cutter Standard' to me and such has put me off ever attempting it.) it can be more effective for a lot of people who haven't got a play style that supports a pure ranger approach to Ranged DPS. That said, with my gear, build and play style, my pure Ranger Arcane Archer still has no issues out DPSing most others I run Epics with, and has the survivability most seem to lack. However I've put a lot of thought and effort in to getting it to a point I'm happy with and others recognize as a highly effective DPS character.

Ranged Alacrity in DDO is fairly messed up, the Ranger Capstone for one reason or another translates in to somewhere under 12.5% speed bonus, though most simply explain it as half the advertised value. The Black Dragonscale Armor or Quiver of Alacrity (I refuse to use the name it adopted after Update 9... Though I will call it the Quiver of Redundancy of Wording Redundancy, 10% ) both do not stack with each other, or haste, making them only effective in ToD if you don't like playing chicken with Horoth's banishment, or while soloing if your too cheap or poor to buy pots. In my eyes, using the Arcane Archer set bonus over Shintao Monks is a waste, the extra one shot in however many does not, to me, out way the +2 damage per attack you could be getting.

I'll likely be editing, rewording and reevaluating this later, I got distracted half way through by an Epic Dragon. However that's a start, and yes, sorry for the wall of text.

[sirdanile]

Ranged Alacrity in DDO is fairly messed up, the Ranger Capstone for one reason or another translates in to somewhere under 12.5% speed bonus, though most simply explain it as half the advertised value.

To clarify this point, The reason why speed bonii with bows and most other ranged weapons are effectively cut in half from the stated numerical value is because Shooting and Reloading are seperate actions, speed bonii only affect the shooting part of the action and NOT the reload part of the action.

I remember an Eladrin quote a bit ago that says he was messing around with the shoot and reload action for repeating crossbows specifically and possibly other ranged weapons by making them one fluid action, if this gets implemented it ~SHOULD~ make the speed boosts full value again... and it might accidentally boost the speed increases from rapid fire shot and rapid reload and quickdraw depending on which weapon(s) you're shooting/throwing :P

Keep in mind also that there is much speculation that update 11 will contain a ranged combat passover akin to the spell combat passover of update 9... scouts motto is be prepared... so be prepared with a capped ranger!

[Maxson]

Sound advice from both, you'll have to excuse me for being ok with cookie cutter builds though, as I'm likely going to go for Helves Angel on this one, thanks.

[NexEverto]

Sound advice from both, you'll have to excuse me for being ok with cookie cutter builds though, as I'm likely going to go for Helves Angel on this one, thanks.

Happy to help, you'll more than likely enjoy the Helves Angel Build, most I suggest it to do. Also, I forgot to add, don't be discouraged by people who instantly pass you off as useless or gimp. My Ranger still gets called that by a few unfortunate people until they actually see my character in action. Her Red Scale is more than just for looking pretty.

[krackythehoodedone]

You said most of it.

All ranged builds are going to pick up weapons at some point.

The 18 barb/1rgr/1 anything with blue bar, FB111 actually gives the highest damage against Bosses or single opponents. Its lack of feats means however no precise shot or imp precise shot and it relies far more heavily on melee just switching to bow for manyshot.

A well played AA is viable at endgame and their are some ranged players who have a brilliant reputation in the game. One guy on Ghallandra springs to mind

The AA does get a lot of bad press and unless you really know what you are doing with a ranged build you can add to that negative reputation

[Koshy11]

Ehehehe, things do get narrow minded because they only find biceps being a slab of HAM viable for DPS, you see the cry when casters got boosted, I would hate to see them cry more when ranged EVER get helped out.

Playing ranged is acquired taste, and requires a bit of learning to get used to. Hevles Angels cookie cutter will serve you well, I don't play one either based on the principle that I want a ranged ranger build, not fighter.

Come next life I am going to jump off the pure 20 ranger build though, and go for a more versatile build I first suggested above... AC, HP, Healing, Melee, traps and UMD here I come!

[shores11]

Something I've always wanted in DDO but have been continually discouraged from is a Deepwood Sniper, I know they're **** and the only real excuse for using one is a rogue mechanic splash/DWS for longer ranged sneak attacks.

The way you started off I thought you were referring to the Arcane Archer not the Deepwood Sniper. I have built twp different rangers since playing this game over the last almost 6 years.

>> Arcane Archer - Fun to play, large damage output and may even dominate a party in a dungeon. However this is only true at low to mid levels approximately levels 2-13 or so.

The problem is at higher levels they still have the damage output but the monster types change and some dungeons get smaller. End game monsters like devils, orthons teleport right on top of you and make it difficult to range (even with point blank shot). Most arcanes DO NOT invest in TWF either do to not being able to spread around their feats or the allure of the damage from range is to much to resist.

End result I deletd this character at level 18 or so.

>> Deepwood Sniper - I consider this a balanced ranger as I can spread my feats around enough to be able to take all the feats I want in TWF piercing or if you want slashing and ranged. I take improved critical in both to include some weapon fighting feats.

From low level to high level (1-20) I use him the same mostly TWF with some nice greensteel rapiers (at level 12) and do very well in damage and usually either dominate or am at the top in kills and damage. I use the deepwood shots when I do use my many shot or I want to occasionally kill a foe from a far.

>> Tempest - I have never built this ranger mostly because it doesn't appeal to me.

Played correctly a ranger can be devestating to the enemy. Between the two I would never build an Arcane Archer again and only smile to myself when I see them at low level and mid-level because it is extremely rare to see one at high level. Yes, they eventually learn...

[NexEverto]

-Snip-
...Most arcanes DO NOT invest in TWF either do to not being able to pread around their feats or the allure of the damage from range is to much to resist.

Sorry, I'd just like to clarify this point here in case there's any people unfamiliar with Rangers reading this topic, Rangers automatically get Two Weapon Fighting at level 2, Improved Two Weapon Fighting at level 6, and finally Greater Two Weapon Fighting at level 11. If you can't find space to fit automatically granted feats in to your Build (Try wrap your head around that oxymoron) then you're doing something wrong. To say any pure Ranger, or even 6 splash Ranger Arcane Archer (As most splash Ranged Builds are for this exact reason, and Manyshot) haven't invested in any Two Weapon Fighting Feats is wrong, they automatically invest in it whether they realize it or not, they just have to choose to utilize it, and this is something a lot of people fail to do.

[Esgeyl]

...and only smile to myself when I see them at low level and mid-level because it is extremely rare to see one at high level. Yes, they eventually learn...

stop by and smile at me sometimes, i'm the new guy who hasn't learned yet
i'm still in the low levels, where i had only a few times real need to go meelee (on the other hand, so far i solo alot, and prefer to stay away from any dmg)

also i still wonder if the AA is really so bad cos of the game setup, or just hated cos ppl play him badly, well, alot lvls to go to find that out, lets just keep my ideals alive ^_^

[grodon9999]

stop by and smile at me sometimes, i'm the new guy who hasn't learned yet
i'm still in the low levels, where i had only a few times real need to go meelee (on the other hand, so far i solo alot, and prefer to stay away from any dmg)

also i still wonder if the AA is really so bad cos of the game setup, or just hated cos ppl play him badly, well, alot lvls to go to find that out, lets just keep my ideals alive ^_^

it's mostly people playing them badly, but keep in mind most players are simply bad. it's a friggin video game, not a life skill. Those of us who have mastered playing it have way more wrong with us than casual gamers who just play for fun but don't quite have the mini-maxing mind or the twitch skills.

The thing is . . . if you're a bad melee . . . who's gonna know? You run up to mobs, you swing your weapon, you get hit, healed, hit some more, rinse and repeat. The level of suck required to stand out in this role is pretty high. on a bow-user it's very easy to aggro a whole bunch of mobs and get them chasing you like a Benny Hill scene. That stands out more.

[Esgeyl]

on a bow-user it's very easy to aggro a whole bunch of mobs and get them chasing you like a Benny Hill scene.

well i used to play a ranger on ultima online few years ago, and i pretty much learned to to aggro more then i can handle. i mean for f** sake, i have a bow, i can pull that stuff mostly one by one from far away.

So far i've ran around only in a few pugs, and what i try to do, is to snipe casters, and ranged stuff. so far nobody complained, but maybe ppl just don't voice their opinion in low lvl pugs (i also liked this one group, that was in butchers bath elite, and everybody ran away in a separate direction and died, i think i took each soulstone at least twice for resurection)

[Fetchi]

>> Arcane Archer - Fun to play, large damage output and may even dominate a party in a dungeon. However this is only true at low to mid levels approximately levels 2-13 or so.

The problem is at higher levels they still have the damage output but the monster types change and some dungeons get smaller. End game monsters like devils, orthons teleport right on top of you and make it difficult to range (even with point blank shot). Most arcanes DO NOT invest in TWF either do to not being able to pread around their feats or the allure of the damage from range is to much to resist.

End result I deletd this character at level 18 or so.

On the contrary. It is not until you've reached level 18 and have access to slayers arrows and a lightning II bow that you finally become worth a party slot. It's unfortunate that you deleted your ranger once he finally got to the fun part. From levels 1-17 your better off just two-weapon fighting. Unless you are a TR with access to your lighting II bow at level 12, and still you're only good dps when manyshot it up. You will still kill things faster in melee when manyshot is not on.

As others have stated, you have to know when to pull out the bow and when to melee. Its really simple: pull out bow when manyshot is ready. Melee the rest of the time.

Its unfortunate because no one tells the caster they can only cast spells for 20 seconds out of every 2 minutes, the rest of the time they need to switch to a different play style and melee or something.

Its unfortunate because no one tells the barbarian he can only rage and swing his axe for 20 seconds out of every 2 minutes, the rest of the time they need to switch to a different play style and use a throwing weapon or something.

But if you play an archer, you get to play what you want for 20 seconds out of every 2 minutes, the rest of the time you have to play a melee. Then you start wondering why you didn't just roll up a fighter who sometimes uses a bow, or a multiclass character who can range when manyshot it up, then switch to something a lot more helpful to the party.

Because the bottom line is, if your not manyshotting and you have a bow equiped, your wasting your time because your dps is pitiful.

Just my 2 cp (also with 6 years of ranger experience )

P.S. My negative attitude toward ranged combat is only because I really love the play style and I want the developers to make it more fun.

[Thrudh]

Its unfortunate because no one tells the caster they can only cast spells for 20 seconds out of every 2 minutes, the rest of the time they need to switch to a different play style and melee or something.

Its unfortunate because no one tells the barbarian he can only rage and swing his axe for 20 seconds out of every 2 minutes, the rest of the time they need to switch to a different play style and use a throwing weapon or something.

But it's not 20 seconds you're good as everyone else (like a caster or a barbarian), and for the other 100 seconds you suck...

For 20 seconds you do more damage than ANYONE (maybe a sorc completely empying his SP bar could out DPS an Arcane Archer with slayer arrows hitting multiple targets with manyshot and IPS, but then the sorc is done, while you're back in business in 100 seconds).

We COULD make archery more useful so that it can be used 100% of the time, but then we'd have to nerf manyshot...

I don't think that would be a good trade...

20 seconds of absolute dominating DPS (From RANGE, where the bad guy can't hit back) is extremely useful in many situations.

I'm willing to switch to melee for 100 seconds, so I can keep the power of 20 seconds of manyshot. I find that more fun than just a steady decent DPS all the time like barbarians get.

[grodon9999]

But it's not 20 seconds you're good as everyone else (like a caster or a barbarian), and for the other 100 seconds you suck...

For 20 seconds you do more damage than ANYONE (maybe a sorc completely empying his SP bar could out DPS an Arcane Archer with slayer arrows hitting multiple targets with manyshot and IPS, but then the sorc is done, while you're back in business in 100 seconds).

We COULD make archery more useful so that it can be used 100% of the time, but then we'd have to nerf manyshot...

I don't think that would be a good trade...

20 seconds of absolute dominating DPS (From RANGE, where the bad guy can't hit back) is extremely useful in many situations.

I'm willing to switch to melee for 100 seconds, so I can keep the power of 20 seconds of manyshot. I find that more fun than just a steady decent DPS all the time like barbarians get.

Manyshot should be a Stance like Stalwart/Dos that ends if you move. I can see legolas firing 4 arrows at once or firing while jumping around the room. Firing 4 arrows at once AND jumpin around the room just ain' gonna happen.

the lack of mobility and potential disaster with certain aggro situations are the balance

[Thrudh]

Manyshot should be a Stance like Stalwart/Dos that ends if you move. I can see legolas firing 4 arrows at once or firing while jumping around the room. Firing 4 arrows at once AND jumpin around the room just ain' gonna happen.

the lack of mobility and potential disaster with certain aggro situations are the balance

That's a cool idea but too exploitable... Shield wall, manyshot 100% from the back...

Surround Harry, manyshot all day long (maybe if you got rid of evasion too when in Manyshot mode it would be balanced)

Nah, I'd hate to lose the ability to kite a boss around with manyshot running. You'd destroy solo archer play with a change like that.

[Fetchi]

But it's not 20 seconds you're good as everyone else (like a caster or a barbarian), and for the other 100 seconds you suck...

For 20 seconds you do more damage than ANYONE (maybe a sorc completely empying his SP bar could out DPS an Arcane Archer with slayer arrows hitting multiple targets with manyshot and IPS, but then the sorc is done, while you're back in business in 100 seconds).

We COULD make archery more useful so that it can be used 100% of the time, but then we'd have to nerf manyshot...

I don't think that would be a good trade...

20 seconds of absolute dominating DPS (From RANGE, where the bad guy can't hit back) is extremely useful in many situations.

I'm willing to switch to melee for 100 seconds, so I can keep the power of 20 seconds of manyshot. I find that more fun than just a steady decent DPS all the time like barbarians get.

I can agree with that. You bring up a good point. But, think about the entire leveling progression of an arcane archer, not just level 18+. You only have god like DPS with manyshot, slayer arrows, and an endgame bow hopefully by level 18.

But every other class is effective with their playstyle through out the entire life of the character. It seems to me archery could be improved over all, from levels 1-20; not just in terms of dps, but in other ways as well.

I could get behind a change for manyshot and/or ips if that meant the the playstyle of ranged combat would become meaningful and viable in more than just 10% of situations.

On a side note: It makes sense to me that Arcane Archers should be more versatile with their imbued arrows. Arcane Archers should be more about crowd control and and other spell like abilities with their arrows. Deepwood snipers should be king of ranged dps.

[Thrudh]

I can agree with that. You bring up a good point. But, think about the entire leveling progression of an arcane archer, not just level 18+. You only have god like DPS with manyshot, slayer arrows, and an endgame bow hopefully by level 18.

But every other class is effective with their playstyle through out the entire life of the character. It seems to me archery could be improved over all, from levels 1-20; not just in terms of dps, but in other ways as well.

I found my AA to be weak until level 10, when I got 3 arrows from Manyshot, then it was worthwhile... It scales well... I was able to solo equal-level quests even before slayer arrows.

I could get behind a change for manyshot and/or ips if that meant the the playstyle of ranged combat would become meaningful and viable in more than just 10% of situations.

I could too, but sometimes it's a dangerous game to let the devs tinker...

Deepwood snipers should be king of ranged dps.

Oh they definitely need to do something with that PrE.

[Glenalth]

Deepwood snipers should be king of ranged dps.

Single target ranged DPS, yes.

I get a feeling that we're going to see something more like the Rogue Assassin that works at range though.