Is a bow ranger ever truly viable?

[Maxson]

Something I've always wanted in DDO but have been continually discouraged from is a Deepwood Sniper, I know they're **** and the only real excuse for using one is a rogue mechanic splash/DWS for longer ranged sneak attacks.

The thing I've always kind of wondered based on the ranger capstone is whether a bow ranger is EVER viable, a 25% attack speed boost pretty much directly translates into a 25% DPS boost in a game where active abilities are uncommon, how do the numbers stack up taking this into account? I've noticed that pure rangers are exceedingly rare, and bow rangers are practically a joke, I admit I would likely be an Arcane archer until DWS is either vastly improved, or at least gets levels II & III...

The obvious advantage of a ranger is that even though you're a bow user, you can at least pretend to TWF through the early levels where your bow DPS is abysmal and just tends to annoy the party as the melee chases the mob you've aggroed round the room while you attempt to avoid it.

If pure bow ranger is truly Viable, are there any good builds? Is it possible to be a good AC toon so you don't have to bounce away from enemies constantly?

There are some great bows in the game now, and some great armours for high dex users who aren't monks. Gear is no real issue for this. I've access to all the good bows already.

[Koshy11]

1st. the capstone only equates to 12.5%

The blanket range attack speed nerf since beta was applied AFTER all other boosts is placed under consideration. With no speed boost whatsoever, you're sitting at -50%, when you consider a sword and board to be 0%

Abbot quiver / black dragon armor = 10%
AA TOD set = 10%
Ranger capstone = 25%
That equates to 45% divide that by half and you get 22.5% boost in speed.

If you add haste its a grand total of 50% range attack speed boost (Unsure which one it doesn't stack with) which still equates to 25% boost.

That still puts you at best 25% behind a sword and board swinger.

Several possible builds which sadly none are pure rangers that could make range pew pew a bit more fun, is a possible

1/rogue, 1 fighter/monk, 18 ranger build (we know what this one is called) Which has a possibility of workable AC, self healing capability and buffing like any rangers would (that's if you didn't dump wis)

the infamous helves angels build,(12 fighter/6 ranger/2monk) which seems to give you the highest burst of manyshots you could ever hope for, but I consider this NOT a ranger but a ranged fighter build.

In short, you are expected to put away your bow from time to time. its called a ranger not an archer for a good reason, bows aren't our only tool when we're given the twf feat line for free.

There's also the prospect of a singing archer, an AA bard. This I am not too sure of when it don't even seem to have space for imp. precision shot.

Hope that helps.

[NexEverto]

Koshy summed it up pretty accurately, but I'm going to simplify it even more before adding my thoughts. A 'Bow Ranger' is only ever truly viable when you understand the aim of your the build, the builds limitations, as well as your personal limitations as a player. To play an effective Bow Ranger, as a player, you'll find that you'll have to be far more away of whats going on in the quest than any other DPS class, bar maybe monks.

Most viable Bow Rangers, or currently, Arcane Archers, will specialize in both Melee AND Ranged. It is one of the only classes than have the ability to duel spec with two main weapon focuses. People don't seem to realize that Improved Precise Shot, not just Manyshot, means you can do more damage than a Strength Based Khopesh Rogue in the right situations. Manyshot is argued to be one of the highest burst DPS functions in DDO, and Improved Precise Shot is the one of the few Non-Caster AOE damage abilities in the game so I don't need to explain anything there. Shooting across a line of held mobs however, will often have you putting out more damage than anyone else in the group, but, unlike everyone else it wont be focused on one target. Obviously, against single targets such as most raid bosses (unless you like shooting the trash too), this does leave most Ranged uses DPS as something to be desired.

If you play a Bard, or as I've been seeing more of recently, a Cleric or Favored Soul who uses a Bow for damage it can also be a very effective combination. It allows players who like to keep busy to sit back away from the fight whilst still healing and contributing some amount of DPS to hopefully get the job done quicker. Once again though, a players skill can often be make or break in these situations, because a simple moment of ill thought can have half a party dead because of a missed heal.

I recommend to most people who ask me about being an Arcane Archer the Helves Angels Build mentioned above, whilst I personally don't like the Build (Though I don't argue its results, its just become to 'Cookie Cutter Standard' to me and such has put me off ever attempting it.) it can be more effective for a lot of people who haven't got a play style that supports a pure ranger approach to Ranged DPS. That said, with my gear, build and play style, my pure Ranger Arcane Archer still has no issues out DPSing most others I run Epics with, and has the survivability most seem to lack. However I've put a lot of thought and effort in to getting it to a point I'm happy with and others recognize as a highly effective DPS character.

Ranged Alacrity in DDO is fairly messed up, the Ranger Capstone for one reason or another translates in to somewhere under 12.5% speed bonus, though most simply explain it as half the advertised value. The Black Dragonscale Armor or Quiver of Alacrity (I refuse to use the name it adopted after Update 9... Though I will call it the Quiver of Redundancy of Wording Redundancy, 10% ) both do not stack with each other, or haste, making them only effective in ToD if you don't like playing chicken with Horoth's banishment, or while soloing if your too cheap or poor to buy pots. In my eyes, using the Arcane Archer set bonus over Shintao Monks is a waste, the extra one shot in however many does not, to me, out way the +2 damage per attack you could be getting.

I'll likely be editing, rewording and reevaluating this later, I got distracted half way through by an Epic Dragon. However that's a start, and yes, sorry for the wall of text.

[Maxson]

Sound advice from both, you'll have to excuse me for being ok with cookie cutter builds though, as I'm likely going to go for Helves Angel on this one, thanks.

[NexEverto]

Sound advice from both, you'll have to excuse me for being ok with cookie cutter builds though, as I'm likely going to go for Helves Angel on this one, thanks.

Happy to help, you'll more than likely enjoy the Helves Angel Build, most I suggest it to do. Also, I forgot to add, don't be discouraged by people who instantly pass you off as useless or gimp. My Ranger still gets called that by a few unfortunate people until they actually see my character in action. Her Red Scale is more than just for looking pretty.

[krackythehoodedone]

You said most of it.

All ranged builds are going to pick up weapons at some point.

The 18 barb/1rgr/1 anything with blue bar, FB111 actually gives the highest damage against Bosses or single opponents. Its lack of feats means however no precise shot or imp precise shot and it relies far more heavily on melee just switching to bow for manyshot.

A well played AA is viable at endgame and their are some ranged players who have a brilliant reputation in the game. One guy on Ghallandra springs to mind

The AA does get a lot of bad press and unless you really know what you are doing with a ranged build you can add to that negative reputation

[Koshy11]

Ehehehe, things do get narrow minded because they only find biceps being a slab of HAM viable for DPS, you see the cry when casters got boosted, I would hate to see them cry more when ranged EVER get helped out.

Playing ranged is acquired taste, and requires a bit of learning to get used to. Hevles Angels cookie cutter will serve you well, I don't play one either based on the principle that I want a ranged ranger build, not fighter.

Come next life I am going to jump off the pure 20 ranger build though, and go for a more versatile build I first suggested above... AC, HP, Healing, Melee, traps and UMD here I come!

[shores11]

Something I've always wanted in DDO but have been continually discouraged from is a Deepwood Sniper, I know they're **** and the only real excuse for using one is a rogue mechanic splash/DWS for longer ranged sneak attacks.

The way you started off I thought you were referring to the Arcane Archer not the Deepwood Sniper. I have built twp different rangers since playing this game over the last almost 6 years.

>> Arcane Archer - Fun to play, large damage output and may even dominate a party in a dungeon. However this is only true at low to mid levels approximately levels 2-13 or so.

The problem is at higher levels they still have the damage output but the monster types change and some dungeons get smaller. End game monsters like devils, orthons teleport right on top of you and make it difficult to range (even with point blank shot). Most arcanes DO NOT invest in TWF either do to not being able to spread around their feats or the allure of the damage from range is to much to resist.

End result I deletd this character at level 18 or so.

>> Deepwood Sniper - I consider this a balanced ranger as I can spread my feats around enough to be able to take all the feats I want in TWF piercing or if you want slashing and ranged. I take improved critical in both to include some weapon fighting feats.

From low level to high level (1-20) I use him the same mostly TWF with some nice greensteel rapiers (at level 12) and do very well in damage and usually either dominate or am at the top in kills and damage. I use the deepwood shots when I do use my many shot or I want to occasionally kill a foe from a far.

>> Tempest - I have never built this ranger mostly because it doesn't appeal to me.

Played correctly a ranger can be devestating to the enemy. Between the two I would never build an Arcane Archer again and only smile to myself when I see them at low level and mid-level because it is extremely rare to see one at high level. Yes, they eventually learn...

[NexEverto]

-Snip-
...Most arcanes DO NOT invest in TWF either do to not being able to pread around their feats or the allure of the damage from range is to much to resist.

Sorry, I'd just like to clarify this point here in case there's any people unfamiliar with Rangers reading this topic, Rangers automatically get Two Weapon Fighting at level 2, Improved Two Weapon Fighting at level 6, and finally Greater Two Weapon Fighting at level 11. If you can't find space to fit automatically granted feats in to your Build (Try wrap your head around that oxymoron) then you're doing something wrong. To say any pure Ranger, or even 6 splash Ranger Arcane Archer (As most splash Ranged Builds are for this exact reason, and Manyshot) haven't invested in any Two Weapon Fighting Feats is wrong, they automatically invest in it whether they realize it or not, they just have to choose to utilize it, and this is something a lot of people fail to do.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

"Bow Rangers" their kinda like a door that swings freely in both directions, being labeled "Pull only."




(Psst... an Elf Rgr20 AA is not equal to "bow Ranger".)

[grodon9999]

No, it's not viable in the current state of the game. i wish it was because it is a lot of fun.

[Esgeyl]

...and only smile to myself when I see them at low level and mid-level because it is extremely rare to see one at high level. Yes, they eventually learn...

stop by and smile at me sometimes, i'm the new guy who hasn't learned yet
i'm still in the low levels, where i had only a few times real need to go meelee (on the other hand, so far i solo alot, and prefer to stay away from any dmg)

also i still wonder if the AA is really so bad cos of the game setup, or just hated cos ppl play him badly, well, alot lvls to go to find that out, lets just keep my ideals alive ^_^

[grodon9999]

stop by and smile at me sometimes, i'm the new guy who hasn't learned yet
i'm still in the low levels, where i had only a few times real need to go meelee (on the other hand, so far i solo alot, and prefer to stay away from any dmg)

also i still wonder if the AA is really so bad cos of the game setup, or just hated cos ppl play him badly, well, alot lvls to go to find that out, lets just keep my ideals alive ^_^

it's mostly people playing them badly, but keep in mind most players are simply bad. it's a friggin video game, not a life skill. Those of us who have mastered playing it have way more wrong with us than casual gamers who just play for fun but don't quite have the mini-maxing mind or the twitch skills.

The thing is . . . if you're a bad melee . . . who's gonna know? You run up to mobs, you swing your weapon, you get hit, healed, hit some more, rinse and repeat. The level of suck required to stand out in this role is pretty high. on a bow-user it's very easy to aggro a whole bunch of mobs and get them chasing you like a Benny Hill scene. That stands out more.

[Chai]

Arcane Archer builds ARE viable. Its mostly the chosen playstyle and not the fact that its an AA that sucks. Most people who see me play my AA dont think the toon is an AA imediately as it can hold its own in melee. When entire hallways of mobs die in a hail of slayer arrows and lightning strikes, they realize what they stumbled into.

Example 1: Doesnt focus on str. Never puts the bow down. Attempts to deflect aggro by kiting. Low HP. Little to no healing solution.

Example 2: focuses on str. Knows when to use the bow and when to melee - does NOT shy away from melee. Handles aggro by killing stuff where they stand. Self healing through mana bar.

The image archer builds have right now is that of example 1. Alot of players dont like them because they have run into too many bad ones who pull mobs they cant handle, then become kiting dweebs who run in long lines to try to shirk the aggro, which doesnt make the other group members too happy.

[Ithaquah]

My group is the exception. I recommend following some of the examples above if you're on your own, but in a group of all-ranged you can stick with your ranged weapons (most of the time).

We are all ranged characters. If any one of us were to group with PUGs we'd be hated, but since we all know each other and only play as a team we don't have to worry about that.

We use our bows almost all the time, and have low hit-points so we have run-to-the-hills and kite. But we're all using ranged weapons, so there's no melee characters to worry about. We kite in circles, while the others rain down arrows/bolts. It's a very specialized group, but it works for us.

[maddmatt70]

If you are talking about the pre-paths on the character generator experienced players do not use those because they are not as effective as player made. The players can make better chracters then the paths. You sound again like a newer player when you talk about AC. Ac is only useful in about 3 or so different specific situations in the end game otherwise its not useful. Basically anybody can have a decent ac when levelling up to a certain point then most builds should scrap ac and by the time a character gets to the end game nearly all builds should scrap ac at level 20.

What a ranger can do is take a metamagic feat like maximize, get a high healing amp, get superior ardor pots, and take ranger enhancements which boosts for the cure serious wounds spell they can cast. You can heal yourself for 200 or so hit points with a cure spell. The ranger is highly surviveable and self sufficient, but their dps is not that great when not fighting favored enemies even when melee. Shooting is great while manyshot is active. Shooting with a bow can be done all the time, but requires a great deal of knowledge and skill when manyshot is inactive to be viable. It requires alot of work with improve precise shot lining up multiple targets so you get damage on many targets..

[Esgeyl]

on a bow-user it's very easy to aggro a whole bunch of mobs and get them chasing you like a Benny Hill scene.

well i used to play a ranger on ultima online few years ago, and i pretty much learned to to aggro more then i can handle. i mean for f** sake, i have a bow, i can pull that stuff mostly one by one from far away.

So far i've ran around only in a few pugs, and what i try to do, is to snipe casters, and ranged stuff. so far nobody complained, but maybe ppl just don't voice their opinion in low lvl pugs (i also liked this one group, that was in butchers bath elite, and everybody ran away in a separate direction and died, i think i took each soulstone at least twice for resurection)

[Thrudh]

You shouldn't be 100% ranged no...

If that's your question, then no, there is no build that does very well ranging 100% of the time...

But playing an "archer" in this game can be very fun... If you've played most other classes and want a change of pace, an Arcane Archer with manyshot AND the TWF feats is a solid character.

Manyshot is a TON of fun, and you can do more burst DPS than any other melee. 20 seconds doesn't seem like a long time, but there are a huge number of tactical situations in this game where 20 seconds of manyshot is all you need to dominate an encounter.

And then you switch to TWF... and do decent DPS (better than pew-pew-pewing) for the other 100 seconds.

There are situations where ranging 100% of the time does make sense (to mitigate damage or when you take advantage of Improved Precise Shot), but most of the time, it's smarter to switch to melee when manyshot is on timer. Also, when soloing, you can often go 100% ranged... You do less DPS, but kiting and staying away from the bad guys can make a tough encounter much easier for an archer (just like it is for a caster)

Now, you may not enjoy this kind of character... I enjoy my AA very much.. Even though I melee a lot, Manyshot is SO devastating, I still feel like my guy is primarily an archer.

[Thrudh]

Arcane Archer builds ARE viable. Its mostly the chosen playstyle and not the fact that its an AA that sucks. Most people who see me play my AA dont think the toon is an AA imediately as it can hold its own in melee. When entire hallways of mobs die in a hail of slayer arrows and lightning strikes, they realize what they stumbled into.

Example 1: Doesnt focus on str. Never puts the bow down. Attempts to deflect aggro by kiting. Low HP. Little to no healing solution.

Example 2: focuses on str. Knows when to use the bow and when to melee - does NOT shy away from melee. Handles aggro by killing stuff where they stand. Self healing through mana bar.

The image archer builds have right now is that of example 1. Alot of players dont like them because they have run into too many bad ones who pull mobs they cant handle, then become kiting dweebs who run in long lines to try to shirk the aggro, which doesnt make the other group members too happy.

Good post.

[Thrudh]

My group is the exception. I recommend following some of the examples above if you're on your own, but in a group of all-ranged you can stick with your ranged weapons (most of the time).

We are all ranged characters. If any one of us were to group with PUGs we'd be hated, but since we all know each other and only play as a team we don't have to worry about that.

We use our bows almost all the time, and have low hit-points so we have run-to-the-hills and kite. But we're all using ranged weapons, so there's no melee characters to worry about. We kite in circles, while the others rain down arrows/bolts. It's a very specialized group, but it works for us.

That sounds like fun... I remember doing Stormcleave with three ranged AAs and a mechanic rogue with a repeating crossbow. The cleric and the fighter never had a chance to do ANYTHING. I felt kind of bad for them.