Real differences between Barb and Fighter

[Sakeima]

So, from a simplified perspective what's the real melee difference between a barb and a fighter with a rage pot? Does it really just boil down to AC vs DR?

[jcTharin]

almost no one cares about AC at end game. I have never played a fighter to high levels but from what i can gather fighter has great burst DPS with haste boost, lots of hp and oodles of delicious bonus feats. Barbs have even more hp, faster moment with the static bonus and sprint boost, the ability to use any melee weapon they want just fine (almost no specialization) and better long term DPS with super long rages and endless frenzys. As long as they have healing support a barbarian is pretty much the energizer bunny from hell. key words "healing support".

I would appreciate someone with a fighter saying something for the fighters advantages.

[EustaceTrevelyan]

almost no one cares about AC at end game. I have never played a fighter to high levels but from what i can gather fighter has great burst DPS with haste boost, lots of hp and oodles of delicious bonus feats. Barbs have even more hp, faster moment with the static bonus and sprint boost, the ability to use any melee weapon they want just fine (almost no specialization) and better long term DPS with super long rages and endless frenzys. As long as they have healing support a barbarian is pretty much the energizer bunny from hell. key words "healing support".

I would appreciate someone with a fighter saying something for the fighters advantages.

Fighter has more versatility, and if you're done grinding GS, ToD, epics, etc, then we have the bestest grind of all: AC gear!

But you have so many feats and more splashing options with ftr. But if you just want to hit things (and i have a character that loves doing that and is highly skilled), barb might be up yer alley. Oh, yeah, and the healing thing, if yer a barb, need healing support/looots of pots. Ftrs can do damage without hurting themselves and sounding like they're having a fit.

[Dreadmaster1993]

I would appreciate someone with a fighter saying something for the fighters advantages.

playing both :

barbs take the're hits from str mod while fighter takes it from feats, (fighter gets masyvely more dmg and atk rolss due feats and str)
barb use rage to boost str , fighter uses kensei strugle for +8 str , wich makes the fighter ghets more agn
barb can only use hatse for atk speed boost , fighter can use action boosts for another 40% speed
fighter can only use the x3 multiplier from greatace or maul, barb can hit x6 multipler on 19-20 roll
fighter has insane crit rate, barb not

thats prty mutsh the part for dmg
the're perfectly equal in this vision if you ask me

now the defensive part :

barb have med armor and dr up to 15(if freaking on it)
fighter has heavy armor, tower shields, sd ac boost , max dex boost, and can reach the ac that mathers (rly fun to see mobs rol 15 and have gancing blows)

general part ;

barb needs to stay at 20 barb to benefit al of it
fighter can easely multyclass and having most of the fighter needs at lvl 12 making them more suitable for special builds

fighter can keep on casting , barb not (also using clickies and wands) making fighter more suitable to selfheal when needed

hope this post helps for ya

[Sakeima]

So really, there's not a lot of difference when it comes to DPS? It seems to me, seeing how as everybody agrees and says that end game AC is useless compared with hot swapping outfits, that the only difference is the duration of the rage and the distribution of a few stat points.

Just looking for somebody with a bit more experience to comment on the subject.

[efreet5]

Well-geared, they're pretty much the same. Smack bad guys, drink a SF pot, and continue... Barbs will crit higher and can get more maintainable STR, but when mobs are dying really fast, even in epics, it's of little or no consequence.

[Shade]

Due to supreme cleave improvements, barbarians (THF) have MASSIVELY higher aoe dps then a fighter could ever hope for. Supreme cleave is that good, as well as there generally superior glancing blow damage.

Single target, for the first few minutes yea there pretty much even. Once the haste boosts expire? Barb > Fighter even for single target.

Fighters strengths are in there many bonus feats, so they can fit lots of nice stuff barbs otherwise cant easily like:
Improved trip
Hamstring (if you have a rogue splash)
Various pastlives (Barb can afford at most 1)
As well as a few other minor benefits:
More synergy with TWF if thats your plan.. (Haste boost IV + twf khopesh outdps THF single taget at least until ESoS comes into play, and slightly beats twf barbs comparable combo (frenzy+dmg boost)
Full DPS with no self damage can make healing a bit easier.. But honestly these days any decent healer can more then handle barbs minor self dmg, so thats something that really only coutns much in solo cases or groups without dedicated healers. And keep in mind barbs self dmg is purely an at will ability - they still have good DPS just by raging which causes no damage.

So if your crazy and plan on an ultimate completionist build, or like to run without healers (or SF pots..) Fighters pretty good.

If your not so nuts, and not too worried about the bonus feats, barbs the way to go.

[dingal]

While haste boosts are active and power surge fighters and barbs are pretty much even. Once haste boosts expire barbs take the lead by a very wide margin.

That said, after running a fighter now (and a supremely well geared barb) I will say that it's extremely rare to run out of haste boosts (I already have 12 at level 16) between shrines even if I'm trying so that's pretty much a non issue.

The main fighter advantages is flexibility and not relying on rage (which renders you unable to UMD or use clickies).

The main barb advantage is higher sustained DPS for a longer amount of time, much much higher crits (often high enough to one shot most non-epic mobs if you have an ESOS and most importantly they are the absolute best class to use Silver Flame pots for healing due to the fact that they have such an extremely high strength and can continue to hit on a 2 with the -10 to str from the debuff.

[Daggertooth]

Due to supreme cleave improvements, barbarians (THF) have MASSIVELY higher aoe dps then a fighter could ever hope for. Supreme cleave is that good, as well as there generally superior glancing blow damage.

.

This is actually a bit of an oversimplification. There are actually TWO classifications of barbs:

They can be classified using the kill count:

First you have the complete noobs who my fighter will outkill EXPONENTIALLY. These are usually priceless runs where no one says anything but you can see how baffled everyone is wondering how my fighter ended up with TEN TIMES as many kills as the half orc barb in the group.

Then you have the second group, these are the authoritive type barbs who think they know what they are doing, they come on the forums w/ grand sweeping statements using words like 'MASSIVELY" etc. These can be identified in group by getting ONE HALF to ONE THIRD the number of kills that my fighter gets. These will usually leave group quickly hoping that no one noticed or looked at the kill count seeing that they are usally in the big guilds who are expected to know what they are doing etc, and or be forum geniuses.

[Kinerd]

So, from a simplified perspective what's the real melee difference between a barb and a fighter with a rage pot?

None.

To clarify one thing in your statement, though, the barbarian Rage ability is distinct from the Rage spell found in potions. (There are about 19 million other Rages too, but that's neither here nor there.)

From a slightly more complicated perspective, fighters are much better suited to twitching than barbarians, so if you like twitching you're best served going fighter. Also, fighters can have a respectable Reflex save without too much effort, which can be handy in the survivability department.

[Shade]

Also, fighters can have a respectable Reflex save without too much effort, which can be handy in the survivability department.

Thats rather wrong (well in the context that you infering that Barbarians cant have a respectable save).

Barbarians get far superior saves in all categories if you have any idea how to play.

Why?
Rage - Huge boost to willsave and fort save

Improved Uncanny dodge - MASSIVE (+6) bonus to reflex saves.

Sure there limited and require some skill and awareness of when to use it, but it's 6 uses at 30 seconds each (and cooldown = duration, so theres no gaps inbetween).. So if your at all aware of what enemies might be lobbing reflex save spells at you, you can indeed maintain thru 100% of encounters in the very longest of quest, I sure do.

And if you otherwise cant handle keeping short boost active, well you wouldn't be a very good fighter anyways, as the class very heavily relies on smart use of haste boost to do well. So you should be playing a barb - as for a barb, all you need to do is remember to rage to perform competantly, and that can last upwards of 4 minutes.

Then don't forget trapsense. +6 to reflex on traps (or fort/will if its a special magic trap) .. Which can be added on top of improved uncanny dodge. Which pretty much means barbarians can survive some deadly elite/epic traps while fighters just plain and simply cant, theres just no way for them to make up a 12 point gap - those 12 points are required to have anywhere near enough to make the saves on some of the more deadly traps.

Other somewhat unknown fact about IUD: Has a passive benefit too: Makes you immune to sneak attacks from rogue enemies, ALL rogue enemies. I didn't even realise this tell I did my fighter life and noticed I was taking all kinds of bonus damage from them I had otherwise never seen in a long time.

Barbarians are plain tougher in all categories. Saves certainly included.

[Mister_Peace]

Other somewhat unknown fact about IUD: Has a passive benefit too: Makes you immune to sneak attacks from rogue enemies, ALL rogue enemies.

and here I thought the passive benefit from IUD was to avoid pregnancy

[Forzah]

Thats rather wrong (well in the context that you infering that Barbarians cant have a respectable save).

Barbarians get far superior saves in all categories if you have any idea how to play.

Why?
Rage - Huge boost to willsave and fort save

Improved Uncanny dodge - MASSIVE (+6) bonus to reflex saves.

Sure there limited and require some skill and awareness of when to use it, but it's 6 uses at 30 seconds each (and cooldown = duration, so theres no gaps inbetween).. So if your at all aware of what enemies might be lobbing reflex save spells at you, you can indeed maintain thru 100% of encounters in the very longest of quest, I sure do.

And if you otherwise cant handle keeping short boost active, well you wouldn't be a very good fighter anyways, as the class very heavily relies on smart use of haste boost to do well. So you should be playing a barb - as for a barb, all you need to do is remember to rage to perform competantly, and that can last upwards of 4 minutes.

Then don't forget trapsense. +6 to reflex on traps (or fort/will if its a special magic trap) .. Which can be added on top of improved uncanny dodge. Which pretty much means barbarians can survive some deadly elite/epic traps while fighters just plain and simply cant, theres just no way for them to make up a 12 point gap - those 12 points are required to have anywhere near enough to make the saves on some of the more deadly traps.

Barbarians are plain tougher in all categories. Saves certainly included.

You are right here. I splashed my barb into rogue and he has really reliable saves. It works very well in stuff like epic chains of flame (or any epic quest with traps, for that matter). With buffs and uncanny dodge the reflex save vs traps is in the 50's.

[Kinerd]

Thats rather wrong (well in the context that you infering that Barbarians cant have a respectable save).

Implying.

The part of my statement you did not put enough weight on was "without too much effort". A DPS Fighter is going to have Kensei - the Reflex save there is no effort. A fighter has more than enough feats - picking up a saves feat is practically no effort. Now the barbarian has to keep Improved Uncanny Dodge up just to keep pace, AND has to lose DPS to do it.

I run my cleric through epic traps, let's be serious. Who cares about traps?

[Kourier]

Implying.

The part of my statement you did not put enough weight on was "without too much effort". A DPS Fighter is going to have Kensei - the Reflex save there is no effort. A fighter has more than enough feats - picking up a saves feat is practically no effort. Now the barbarian has to keep Improved Uncanny Dodge up just to keep pace, AND has to lose DPS to do it.

I run my cleric through epic traps, let's be serious. Who cares about traps?

Kensai - saves? Kensai - saves? If anything, defenders have better saves because of their stance.

The ~+4 to reflex you get from all the feats (really, did you take lightning reflexes, luck of heroes, AND snake blood?) is still less than uncanny dodge, which barbs get for free.

If you wanna talk saves - play a pally.

Barbs have raw strength. This provides them their accuracy, damage, and tactics.
Kensai fighters get these from enhancements, feats, and class features.
These go towards the same end - both will be high dps and have good tactics (if you choose to focus on them). Kensai may be tied to a certain kind of weapon, barb gets more benefit from glancing blows, rages last longer than hasteboost in worst case scenarios between shrines, etc.

[Kinerd]

Kensai - saves? Kensai - saves? If anything, defenders have better saves because of their stance.

The ~+4 to reflex you get from all the feats (really, did you take lightning reflexes, luck of heroes, AND snake blood?) is still less than uncanny dodge, which barbs get for free.

If you wanna talk saves - play a pally.

Kensei have a +3 to Reflex saves against magic. Stalwarts get +3 across the board, but only while in stance, and of course are more limited offensively, making a comparison between them and barbarians irrelevant. Throw Lightning Reflexes on that +3 and you're up to +5. It also must be pointed out again that Improved Uncanny Dodge is not free - the part we are talking about is an ability you must activate, which takes time.

All I said was that a fighter can get a good Reflex save without too much effort. This is a useful ability that is relevant if someone asks what the difference is between a fighter and a barbarian.

[Shade]

Implying.

The part of my statement you did not put enough weight on was "without too much effort". A DPS Fighter is going to have Kensei - the Reflex save there is no effort. A fighter has more than enough feats - picking up a saves feat is practically no effort. Now the barbarian has to keep Improved Uncanny Dodge up just to keep pace, AND has to lose DPS to do it.

And theres no dps loss if you know the quest. uncanny dodge is 30 seconds, activate it as you run up to the caster.. They will certainly all be dead before it runs out. Casters arent so common that you have to keep it always activte like haste boost, so you very easily avoid activation time dps loss by simply knowing what to expect. So it's still 3 more for most builds, for good players. I'll acknoledge that doesn't include most players, but we can give the OP the benefit of the doubt.

I run my cleric through epic traps, let's be serious. Who cares about traps?

It's aparently too much effort for 90% of fighters that like to post their builds. They certainly don't take any reflex save boosting feats. Even Durnaks build he touts so much doesn't have it.
So yea, its hard enough.

About epic traps being easy - BS. Show me your SS of completing von5 epic without a rogue. Hell show me one with a rogue. Lets see the death count.
How about chains of flame epic . Your clearn can open that air jet/flame jet door. good luck with that.
How about blood road, I did that without a rogue the other night.. Insane traps, I had to carry the whole party soulstones thru some traps, since you cant rez thru air jet traps.
Maybe partycrashers? just did that last night melee style.. air jets + 300 damage spikes you constantly get shot thru, lets see your cleric survive those (without exploits)

Epic traps aren't easy to survive. There avoidable with skill or rogues, but for when your skill fails and you rely on your character, barbarians are up there with rogues, while every other class has no chance.

re: Durnak. lol. I don't think your blanket statement really hold any weight. Anyone with any amount of logic would understand fighters are a million miles behind in total DPS these days.. Supreme cleave put barbs aoe dps up about a million miles ahead, in an area fighter scould only dream to hit.

Sure your completionist fighter can put out pretty sick single target dps. But overall dps throughout a whole quest, doesn't involve much single target if your at all good at targetting. And your aoe dps is rather non existant due to twitching.

Just transfer over to khbyer and i'll show you how proper THF dps melee really fights now. It certainly doesnt involve much single target anymore, all about the aoe. If im not killing 2-3 mobs at a time, im not doing enough dps.

oh yea groan its time for a rematch too.. TR back to melee.. Should have my abishai set by the time your done =)

[grodon9999]

re: Durnak. lol. I don't think your blanket statement really hold any weight. Anyone with any amount of logic would understand fighters are a million miles behind in total DPS these days.. Supreme cleave put barbs aoe dps up about a million miles ahead, in an area fighter scould only dream to hit.

I'm very curious to see this but my barb is only level 4 . . . can we see a video?

[Cetus]

re: Durnak. lol. I don't think your blanket statement really hold any weight. Anyone with any amount of logic would understand fighters are a million miles behind in total DPS these days.. Supreme cleave put barbs aoe dps up about a million miles ahead, in an area fighter scould only dream to hit.

Sure your completionist fighter can put out pretty sick single target dps. But overall dps throughout a whole quest, doesn't involve much single target if your at all good at targetting. And your aoe dps is rather non existant due to twitching.

Just transfer over to khbyer and i'll show you how proper THF dps melee really fights now. It certainly doesnt involve much single target anymore, all about the aoe. If im not killing 2-3 mobs at a time, im not doing enough dps.

oh yea groan its time for a rematch too.. TR back to melee.. Should have my abishai set by the time your done =)

You seem to be the one threatened by my build, so come on over to argo and enlighten me.

Sure, supreme cleave is way more damage, I'm not that blind to argue that point. But go ahead, cleave away in a group of held mobs - thats where your place is. I'll work on chopping down the boss, thats what I find most important, hence what I built my character for. Even a wizzy can aoe down a group of held mobs if theyre not insta-killable in relatively no effort, so I quite frankly don't care about aoe damage- but then again, in my case, I only run with great casters.


I'm pretty secure in my understanding of the differences- and I'll take that barb of yours on anyday.




PS- As far as reflex, don't be so fast to judge- im at a 19 base +1 haste + 4 gh +4 holy aura + 1 dex yugopot (-2 to hit is unnoticeable on my character) +3 from vornes set with exc 2 dex crafted on ring if I need to swap = 32. Crafted a +10 reflex item from new stuff to hotswap plus a superior stability item if i need it, not to mention the untyped 2 from rogue past life = over 40. I really don't have anything to hide.

[Kinerd]

It's aparently too much effort for 90% of fighters that like to post their builds. They certainly don't take any reflex save boosting feats. Even Durnaks build he touts so much doesn't have it.
So yea, its hard enough.

As I said, fighters can, not fighters do. You are justifiably excited about Supreme Cleave - do you think the majority of barbarians use it? Does its popularity have any bearing on its mechanical effect?

About epic traps being easy - BS. Show me your SS of completing von5 epic without a rogue. Hell show me one with a rogue. Lets see the death count.
How about chains of flame epic . Your clearn can open that air jet/flame jet door. good luck with that.
How about blood road, I did that without a rogue the other night.. Insane traps, I had to carry the whole party soulstones thru some traps, since you cant rez thru air jet traps.
Maybe partycrashers? just did that last night melee style.. air jets + 300 damage spikes you constantly get shot thru, lets see your cleric survive those (without exploits)

Epic traps aren't easy to survive. There avoidable with skill or rogues, but for when your skill fails and you rely on your character, barbarians are up there with rogues, while every other class has no chance.

If you really think a barbarian can go through traps better than a monk or ranger, there's nothing more to say.