Real differences between Barb and Fighter

[Viisari]

There are very few places where the AOE-damage from supreme cleave matters much anyway, since in 90% of content (and yes that includes epic quests) the trash is easily wailed by the caster. It's nice in some desert epics, places with lots of epic drow and elite shavarath, but otherwise all the trash will be dead anyway by the time the barb even gets there.

Also claims that barbarian dps is lightyears ahead fighter dps are just silly. Barbarian gets ahead when fighter runs out of action boosts and power surges, but that won't happen in most content anyway, only in places like ecof and edq1.

[stille_nacht]

barb and fighter:
barb has better THF, Fighter has better TWF.

assuming Min IIs, the fighter has better dps (not FAR better, but better) until his haste boosts run out, or the mobs swarm around them and the barb starts supreme cleaving.
An unraged barbarian is slightly behind unboosted fighter (unsure, someone have a calc?).
overall dps in quests where barbarians do not great cleave (or not effectively) is approximately the same.

fighter has far more feats, which can be used for various shenanigans.
barb has more HP, and some DR, making them more hardy.

overall, both have their strengths and weaknesses, its a matter of preference really.

[EpiKagEMO]

barb's rage can be upgraded... and madstoned... and regular rage... so that would be about +20 str and con. better tanks because of this high amount of hp. fighters get a power surge... +8 str... but its short and limited. it really comes down how you build them.

[Aashrym]

Relate it to Sorcs and Wizards......

Barb=Sorc
Fighter=Wizard

Rogue=Bard?

[vVAnjilaVv]

Rogue=Bard?

Correction


Rogue=Sorc, Barb
Bard=Wizard, Fighter

[Solidsteak]

The difference is: as a fighter you fight in a disciplined and effective economic style.
As a barbarian you get drunk, get ****ed and wreck stuff up for the hell of it.

[Doganpc]

(aka BARBS PWN AND FIGHTERS ARE GIMP)

Sorry came across this little bit here and well... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMnXNHYWR7I

Dogan
Pwnies!

[Alex301]

barb and fighter:
barb has better THF, Fighter has better TWF.

I don't think this is strictly true, or at least we shouldn't over generalise this statement. Against 0-50% fort mobs your twitching fighter is doing slightly more dps than your barbarian, but twitching perfectly isn't easy so i would say they are on par for most people. If you're against several enemies then the glancing blows and supreme cleaves puts your barbarian a head by a significant margin, but in these situations your probably fighting trash anyway so take from this what you will.

Now for TWF a pure fighter is doing more damage than a pure barbarian, but if you're going TWF then i think you're selling yourself short by going pure barbarian. A 18 barb/ 2 ftr split puts them around the same point. Your barbarian is also less dependant on SA damage than your fighter, meaning they lose less dps if they have aggro.

In short, if they are built and played appropriately, there isn't a big difference between the two in either case. Which has higher dps really depends on the situation, e.g. against a single target THF fighter> THF barbarian, with aggro TWF barbarian>TWF fighter etc.

[articwarrior]

imo barb just has more hit points in comparison to fighter, however fighter can possibly get more str than a barb, it just depends how you play it

[Alex301]

I would think that a barbarian would easily achieve a higher str than a fighter. The only boosts a fighter gets to str is power surge and their strength enhancements for a maximum of +12 extra str. A barbarian receives +8 with mighty rage alone, add on top their frenzy and power rage enhancements and you can beat that +12 quite easily.

However, there is more to dps than just high str. The increased attack speed of fighters and their kensei enhancements make up a significant portion their overall damage.

[Talltale-Storyteller]

One observation:

Everybody keeps referring to when fighters run out of haste boost....seriously? That almost never even happens.




The only time DPS REALLY matters is bosses, so semi sustainable burst single target dps is what is the most valuable imo.

That said I personally like fighter better because I love my combat tactic feats.

[stille_nacht]

The only time DPS REALLY matters is bosses, so semi sustainable burst single target dps is what is the most valuable imo.

epic trash mobs say no. however, it is true that fighters seldom run out of str boosts, and no, it isnt a tremendous hassle to press one hotkey after a minute. fighters do run out of haste boosts while questing though.

moving on:

fighter- (twf)
more feats (can get up to some interesting stuff)
better overall average single target dps for ~7 minutes or so (factoring in use of all haste boosts).
better single target dps while no boosts or rage are running.
big bursts from haste boosts.
slightly higher to-hit

barbarian- (thf)
more hp for better survivability
supreme cleave means that barbarian is absolutely ahead vs. multiple trash mobs.
more sustainable long term dps from frenzies.
ability to change weapons without losing as much dps

for anyone whoe really really wants to know exact numbers, here is a chart (its a bit dated though)
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=299620

its a playstyle choice, and both have their merits

[Alex301]

While 7 minutes worth of haste boosts might not sound a lot, when you're actually running a quest you spend a surprising amount of time running from one point to another and less than you might think in combat. Those 7 minutes of haste boosts can stretch over quite a long period of time, depending on the quest ofc.

In your average quest you rarely run out of them but you might have to ration yourself, e.g. if there are just two enemies a head that can be killed easily anyway i'm not going to waste a haste boost on them.

I wouldn't draw too much from that chart either. There are some errors in the calculations and some methods of calculating dps that can be misleading. The general trends are fairly accurate though.

[kazeikan]

I'm gonna go by personal experience and testing.

I've have two trs lives of pure fighter thf, 1 original life of thf pure barbarian on my current main which is a fighter. I have another toon which is a twf 18/2 (barb/fighter split).

I've been fortunate enough to gear them to near max i.e. epic claw, tod rings, (have abishai set but waiting to finish crafting light guard gogs before I use them), litany, marilith chain (Have shard, two scrolls, can't get stupid seal), sets of madstone.

Fighter thf:

Superior dps to any barb thf or twf.

Ability to incorporate umd/self-healing

Ability to fit in past life feats i.e. pally, rogue past. Easier to fit in stunning blow, quickdraw.


Fighter twf:

Yet to have played one, will not comment much.

Solid, solid toons. DPS > thf variant if both using greensteel. DPS < thf if thf has an eSOS.

With only 10 fighter haste boosts, I still never run out of haste boosts.


Barb thf:

Indeed a badass toon indeed, my very first character and still a top favorite.

You want to see big numbers to stroke your ego? This toon is for you.

This does not mean however that you do more dps, as thf fighter still beats it comfortably.

Self-damaging through frenzies.

Slightly better tanks with the dr and +50-100 hp.

Healing through silver flame potions.


Hybrids twf:

12 fighter / 6 barb / 2 X builds, and when they regimp barb past life feat

12 fighter / 6 ranger / 2 X builds

Yet to have played one, will not comment much.

The first build is based on feat that is not working as intended. Enjoy while you can, but come fix time...

UMD for first build is not really used for healing. Don't give me that !@#$ about dismissing rage every time you want to pop a heal scroll with your limited amount of rages.

Healing through silver flame potions.

Evasion.


Barbarian twf:

Fun, fun toon.

If you are planning to tr multiple times w/ any number of these, 1 barb life. 1 rogue life, 1 pally life, 3 fighter lives, 3 monk lives.

Fighter thf > (Barb twf, Fighter twf, Hybrids) > Barb thf

I grouped those three together because I don't really want to bother reinputing stuff to dps spreadsheet to find differences between the three yet. My focus is on my wizzy right now.

Differences are still minor enough (still can be evidently seen in TOD part 2) that it raises the point who really cares, unless you caress your e-peen at night. Play your toon on how you want to play and with flavors you like best.

[HelvanderSeries6]

"Barbarism is the natural state of mankind. Civilization is unnatural and is a whim of circumstance. And barbarism must always ultimately triumph."__Conan the Cimmeron

[Alex301]

I'm gonna go by personal experience and testing.

I've have two trs lives of pure fighter thf, 1 original life of thf pure barbarian on my current main which is a fighter. I have another toon which is a 18/2 (barb/fighter split).

Do you have any actual experience of TWF? Or are these assertions made on in game comparisons between your toon and other TWF players?

[kazeikan]

my 18/2 barb/fighter is twf with lit II's. I am in the process of using AO's spreadsheet to verify stuff so I can accurately post.

Keep in mind these experiences pertains a little to kill count (a little inaccurate since it is basically whoever gets last strike) and 50 fort bosses like horoth. Like I said using AO's spreadsheet right now, will update with as accurate info as possible. Feel free to correct me as I don't maintain that I'm undoubtedly right.

From most experiences in fighting for aggro against other thf and even hate-tanks fighter/pally/monk on my fighter (Echrono, TOD). I'm in one of the top end-game guilds on Khyber, Elite Raiders. Even in guild runs versus well-geared toons, on my main I am always confident. Versus twf toons that are well-geared, they might grab initial aggro momentarily (more swings) before I take it back and firmly establish it.

My main is far from complete. Gear, basically two piece recrafting gs to hp gogs @ mari chain seal. I've finished 3 fighter lives, 1 pally life, 1 rogue life, 1 barb life on main. Missing is 3 monk lives and some day completionist. Some day will take a while as I have 8 toons I'm working on equally well-geared (exception rogue ).

There are undoubtedly players on Khyber that I would have trouble with, most of them I would consider close friends.






Finished with dps calcs posting a new thread.

[Shade]

I'm very curious to see this but my barb is only level 4 . . . can we see a video?

Thinking of doing one as it is something new and fun I think people would like to see.. My performance in say devils assault went up an insane degree once they fixed it (and that was comparing U9 to 9.1 - since thats when it got fixed for halforc, not against the U9 changes)

But for whatever reason win7 gives me horrible FPS while recording making the game unplayable at the levels I would like to present..

I still have XP installed too, but its rather unstable. Maybe I can get it running long enough for 1 run, or build a new rig soon.

Far all this stupid DPS talk goes... Talk is dumb, go read my DPS challenge and post an entry, it shows the truth.
Durnak posted a time 20 seconds faster then my time. Or 12.5% difference.

So while I can admit his character has superor single target dps for sure, I can't say that fighters in general do. As he is the exception to the rule ,and not the norm. Not exactly a lot of 100% Maxxed TR completionist fighters running around.

Take into account the lead he has on me in gear and TR (Me being just a standard legen build with pl ftr/bbn, him being a completionist):
He has 100% maxxed tr bonuses:
+3 monk pl
+3 pally pl (buff ran for the duration of the test)
completionist even for +2 str. 1.5 dmg
Gear differences:
Both have:
ESoS, E-marilith, Eclaw Set
He has: Epic abisha set (3 str = 4 dmg)
Tomes: dunno. I only have +2, he might have 3 or 4

He also broke the rules of the challenge and had a bard buff him with extended rage. I forget to drink a rage pot. Another 1.5 dmg
Even tho he cheated I allowed the entry just to be nice.

Add all those up and your looking at a ~13 damage lead.
Had I those on my attempt, I could of easily made up most if not all of the 12.5% difference.

Anyways while I have no plan to do such an insane amount of TR'ing, I will have the epic abisha set soon (just 2 scrolls off), and should be able to post a better score soon.

And thats single target, he gets absolutely zero AOE damage as he twitches. Add in a single extra target and some supreme cleave, and fighters are no where near barbarians obviously. In any given epic/endgame quest, single target dps is simply not whats the main issue, DDO is designed around fighting multiple monsters.

[Dartwick]

Its odd how AOE now seems to be to important when it it used to be just a step above inconsequential - on forums.

[Shade]

Its odd how AOE now seems to be to important when it it used to be just a step above inconsequential - on forums.

It was always important. It was just simply impossible for melee to contribute any very significant AOE before supreme cleave (and other other cleaves) were fixed. Glancing blows were nice, but never had a big impact... You could maybe get a few epic mobs down 10-20% by the time you killed your main target, so it was something, but nothing like we can do now.. Where non-main targets are like 80-90% dead instead.

It was and IS ---THE--- reason to play a nuke sorcerer - a rather popular and useful build (or pick up a rather popular spell known as wail of the banshee, if your a insta kill spec).. So it was never inconsequential, it just wasn't in the realm of possibility until now.

So yea it's a big deal because we can play melees like we play sorcs now, its pretty fun.

It doesn't just blow fighters out of the water.. It brings barbarians up to a level where they can compete with sorcerers, and thats something unheard of.

Certainly not without its costs (heavy HP damage for spaming supreme cleave) but as long as a radiant servants nearby, that usually covers it and everything dies so fast its worth it.