Drawing a line in the sand. . .

[Namey]

Start the quest with the people who are in the quest. No need to wait for a full group.

This.

Nothing bothers me more than a party that actually bothers to wait for the slowpoke, especially after I've tossed a full party buff on 5/6 characters, and ended on a Haste. And then they sit around, waiting for that one guy who is coming from Harbor to Upper Necropolis and getting boat buffs while at it, instead of just getting on with it. Most of the game is shortmanned without that one guy. He can have late entry EXP penalty, for all I care.

[Eladiun]

Everything goes semi-ok till start to P4 (3 repulls in P2, grrr). With 5 casters in the group, I shrine and hop into P4 and start clearing. Only myself, a guildie and another competent barb pop into P4, with everyone else still in P3. Harry comes down with the majority of the group still in the last section, ultimately resulting in a failed run after 3/4 of the party died with folks trickling in.

Three repulls in Part 2 and you felt this was the sort of group that could handle an off the script Shroud. Seems strange to me that a player as good and experienced as you are didn't see the writing on the wall so to speak or was it more the case of this group of noobs is taking too long for my taste I'm doing what I please **** the leader. Which I have seen a lot of vets guilty of...

I would not shoulder blame so much onto those jumped in quicker - afterall most vets are speed run minded come shroud - is a natural thing... I use one shrine - end part 2. All anyone needs. I do not loot a single chest until the quest is complete... someone asked me why and I told them well if you ever see me loot any chests here before part five - worry.

The wipe there was having people trickle in. They all should have hopped in quickly given the scope or had they intended to wait ... hopped in together, is that simple. Sure you hopped in sprung Harry and died... oh well, You are not the entire party and part four even easier on existing mana bars with the pre-trash already gone - Harry's down... hop in surround him is all.

Could you refresh my memory Emili as too how many Shroud completions you have? It was 400 on just one character if I remember correctly.

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I maybe have a unique perspective on this seeing that I took a break for a large portion of the time between Shroud and F2P and that I was an officer in a newb guild. So I missed, the 400 shrouds other vets have and was in much the same boat as new F2P players when I returned. I've been in shrouds where the leader is overwhelmed and hanging on by the skin of their teeth and so called vets do what was done here charge ahead and go off the script because the Shroud is easy.

I agree the Shroud a cake walk but that's after a lot runs myself and leading a good portion of those. However, it's not so easy for that guy leading his 5th shroud who has never been on a clean fast elite run. That guy is leading by a script and nervous as hell. He knows one way to do it , hasn't seen every possible thing, and isn't ready to recover from any gaffs. Try and remember what it's like...having 11 other people entrust you with a win and you not being sure of yourself. Take a moment and think back. We have all been there at some point. Yet, we become vets and forget what it was like before we had multiple GS items and ToD sets and Epic gear. So we zerg ahead and cause a fail because we don't care to help the leader we just want it done faster. Is it faster to rerun the raid because you cause a wipe?

It's amusing to me that the same vets who when leading will post about respecting the star ultimately fail to do so when tables turn. Honestly, if it was my run I would have called a recall and reform on principle if three people jumped in and started Part 4 before I said to.

This isn't really direct at MTS or Em but at vets in general. Every time I see one of these posts or am in one of these shrouds I ask the same question...if you want it your way why not run your own party and who are you helping by breaking some poor newbs confidence by ignoring the star and sabotaging their raid because it's not run the way you want it to be. If you join a pug and get a 60 minute shroud that's what you get if you want 20 minute runs lead your own.

To the OP, this is why I form mostly guild groups but like others have said I say x people are in we are starting. If they get there they get there...

[Pallol_One-Eye]

Easy to set the pace you want with your own LFMs. Filter others by the way you yourself want to run and all is good.

My Shroud LFMs often look like the following:

Shroud-min buffs, no shrine until after part 3, no ddoor, /recall out @ 5% or get completion.

Sounds harsh, but the pugs that join can usually expect a 25-30 minute run. Uber fast time, no, but significantly better than most.

I apply this thinking to all of my LFMs, zerg, in progress, byoh, etc.

Sometimes I am willing to help out new people who seem like they actually want to learn. That caveat expires if the first words out of thier mouths are shr plz.

[NXPlasmid]

Three repulls in Part 2 and you felt this was the sort of group that could handle an off the script Shroud. Seems strange to me that a player as good and experienced as you are didn't see the writing on the wall so to speak or was it more the case of this group of noobs is taking too long for my taste I'm doing what I please **** the leader. Which I have seen a lot of vets guilty of...



Could you refresh my memory Emili as too how many Shroud completions you have? It was 400 on just one character if I remember correctly.

-------------------------------------------------

I maybe have a unique perspective on this seeing that I took a break for a large portion of the time between Shroud and F2P and that I was an officer in a newb guild. So I missed, the 400 shrouds other vets have and was in much the same boat as new F2P players when I returned. I've been in shrouds where the leader is overwhelmed and hanging on by the skin of their teeth and so called vets do what was done here charge ahead and go off the script because the Shroud is easy.

I agree the Shroud a cake walk but that's after a lot runs myself and leading a good portion of those. However, it's not so easy for that guy leading his 5th shroud who has never been on a clean fast elite run. That guy is leading by a script and nervous as hell. He knows one way to do it , hasn't seen every possible thing, and isn't ready to recover from any gaffs. Try and remember what it's like...having 11 other people entrust you with a win and you not being sure of yourself. Take a moment and think back. We have all been there at some point. Yet, we become vets and forget what it was like before we had multiple GS items and ToD sets and Epic gear. So we zerg ahead and cause a fail because we don't care to help the leader we just want it done faster. Is it faster to rerun the raid because you cause a wipe?

It's amusing to me that the same vets who when leading will post about respecting the star ultimately fail to do so when tables turn. Honestly, if it was my run I would have called a recall and reform on principle if three people jumped in and started Part 4 before I said to.

This isn't really direct at MTS or Em but at vets in general. Every time I see one of these posts or am in one of these shrouds I ask the same question...if you want it your way why not run your own party and who are you helping by breaking some poor newbs confidence by ignoring the star and sabotaging their raid because it's not run the way you want it to be. If you join a pug and get a 60 minute shroud that's what you get if you want 20 minute runs lead your own.

To the OP, this is why I form mostly guild groups but like others have said I say x people are in we are starting. If they get there they get there...

Honestly, I can't agree with the scolding tone of your post. At no point did Mts not take full responsibility for his actions, he merely expressed puzzlement that the rest of the group waited so long to jump in... Probably waiting for the complete Axer package.. lol! T

[Eladiun]

Honestly, I can't agree with the scolding tone of your post. At no point did Mts not take full responsibility for his actions, he merely expressed puzzlement that the rest of the group waited so long to jump in... Probably waiting for the complete Axer package.. lol! T

It's a good thing I never expect much from you in the reading comprehension department. LOL! :P

[Thrudh]

[It's amusing to me that the same vets who when leading will post about respecting the star ultimately fail to do so when tables turn.

This.

[NXPlasmid]

It's amusing to me that the same vets who when leading will post about respecting the star ultimately fail to do so when tables turn.

It's amusing to me that people are so willing to post vague generalizations as some sort of revelatory incite. T

[Thrudh]

Honestly, I can't agree with the scolding tone of your post. At no point did Mts not take full responsibility for his actions, he merely expressed puzzlement that the rest of the group waited so long to jump in... Probably waiting for the complete Axer package.. lol! T

Yeah MtS took full responsibility... no problems with him (although he shouldn't have done it... he certainly didn't make vets look cool with his action. Eladiun was right... 3 pulls in Part 2 should have been a HUGE red flag for such an experienced raider)

My posts were directed towards Emili who actually blamed the rest of the PUG for not compensating...

That's EXACTLY the same as some guy running off in dungeon, getting in over his head, and bringing a bunch of mobs back to the group, and then blaming the group for not handling it.

We all know a GOOD zerger doesn't run off on his own unless he can handle it. MtS shouldn't have started Part 4 on his own unless he was willing to solo Part 4. Sounds to me like he was ready to handle it, but decided not to bother once everyone quit.

He still wasted a lot of people's time (including his own) more than all the newbs over-buffing each other.

[Eladiun]

It's amusing to me that people are so willing to post vague generalizations as some sort of revelatory incite. T

incite or insight?

If you are looking to incite we both know a better place, my slinky friend.

As for insight, vets need to remember that there was a time when this stuff was hard for them too and realize that the leader may not have 400 shrouds in their pocket. That Axer package and swim to refill is a confidence booster for that leader because it's a script they understand and they do not yet have the experience to improvise. Making things difficult for them is not helping them to grow as a leader. Rather than zerg their shroud and wipe it; invite them to your Shroud and show/teach them there is a better faster way. However, besides that they have the star so stand their be buffed and zip it or run your own.

[jydog100]

was it more the case of this group of noobs is taking too long for my taste I'm doing what I please **** the leader. Which I have seen a lot of vets guilty of...

guilty as charged......

[NXPlasmid]

incite or insight?

If you are looking to incite we both know a better place, my slinky friend.

As for insight, vets need to remember that there was a time when this stuff was hard for them too and realize that the leader may not have 400 shrouds in their pocket. That Axer package and swim to refill is a confidence booster for that leader because it's a script they understand and they do not yet have the experience to improvise. Making things difficult for them is not helping them to grow as a leader. Rather than zerg their shroud and wipe it; invite them to your Shroud and show/teach them there is a better faster way. However, besides that they have the star so stand their be buffed and zip it or run your own.

As to slinking, if my decision not to participate and that "club" anymore constitutes slinking in your mind, so be it. As to your qualifications to pontificate... I guess I don't see any. T

[Eladiun]

As to your qualifications to pontificate... I guess I don't see any. T

Since when were qualifications required...but knowing how to spell insight puts me a step in front of you.

[ddoplayer064]

re: the few posts..

Woohoo, forum duel!!

[Blank_Zero]

guilty as charged......

/sentenced to death or insanity. Whichever come first.

[NXPlasmid]

Since when were qualifications required...but knowing how to spell insight puts me a step in front of you.

If you say so.

[Dark_Helmet]

Not everyone will get enjoyment from your playstyle nor do they have fun with someone else's playstyle.

There are players here that will post certain tactics are cheating - that even Devs said were just cheesy, not cheating - and certain guilds who just bail out constantly in the middle of a quest without notice. In their circle of players, they have no problem saying their play style is the correct one.

Who is to say what is the best play style? Yet, you can tell if your playstyle is not very good if you are having issues with people joining your groups or you are not invited to join others... (there are certain players who can't get anyone to join their EPIC quests or scroll farming that should get a clue, eh? )

Try and remember what it's like...having 11 other people entrust you with a win and you not being sure of yourself. Take a moment and think back. We have all been there at some point.

It's amusing to me that the same vets who when leading will post about respecting the star ultimately fail to do so when tables turn. Honestly, if it was my run I would have called a recall and reform on principle if three people jumped in and started Part 4 before I said to.

I agree: The party leader sets the pace and others should follow. If he wants to wait for someone to buff, you wait. If he wants to get going before everyone is there, get going! If he is role playing, play along. If it is a drunk run, be prepared for some fun .


Set up your own party if you want to set the rules. Otherwise, stop with the double standards!

[Mts]

Yeah MtS took full responsibility... no problems with him (although he shouldn't have done it... he certainly didn't make vets look cool with his action. Eladiun was right... 3 pulls in Part 2 should have been a HUGE red flag for such an experienced raider)

My posts were directed towards Emili who actually blamed the rest of the PUG for not compensating...

That's EXACTLY the same as some guy running off in dungeon, getting in over his head, and bringing a bunch of mobs back to the group, and then blaming the group for not handling it.

We all know a GOOD zerger doesn't run off on his own unless he can handle it. MtS shouldn't have started Part 4 on his own unless he was willing to solo Part 4. Sounds to me like he was ready to handle it, but decided not to bother once everyone quit.

He still wasted a lot of people's time (including his own) more than all the newbs over-buffing each other.

This.

I have no problems soloing P4, but when the rest of the group bailed, it wasn't worth it to me to drink the pots necessary to solo it knowing there would be no completion.

It was my fault for jumping in early. I cleared the mobs in P4 with the exception of the last couple of devils, giving them ample time to buff and come in. I literally kited the last few devils around for a couple minutes waiting, then got tired of waiting.

I figured they had enough time - turned out they didn't lol.

ETA: Either way, it was my mistake. *shrug*

[Emili]

Really?

The fault was the rest of the group trickling in? Not the fault of the 3 who started Part 4 without being able to handle Harry by themselves?

Interesting way of looking at it.

Are you implying shroud part four cannot be short manned? I've seen halfling and dwaves there plenty times... anyway, what I am stating is that the part of trickling in is not a tactic. One, two, three even four people down is meaningless in part four what you do in such case is look at what you have left and enter in together with scope of plan on what everyone is to do.

This isn't really direct at MTS or Em but at vets in general. Every time I see one of these posts or am in one of these shrouds I ask the same question...if you want it your way why not run your own party and who are you helping by breaking some poor newbs confidence by ignoring the star and sabotaging their raid because it's not run the way you want it to be. If you join a pug and get a 60 minute shroud that's what you get if you want 20 minute runs lead your own.

To the OP, this is why I form mostly guild groups but like others have said I say x people are in we are starting. If they get there they get there...

All I am saying is I find it hard to pin a failed raid on one person dieing due to them zurging ahead... while I do not think he should have in same light and scope someone needed to call the team together rather than utilizing a lemmings approach. Yes, it was the raid leader's call he could have stoped and very well said - recall and reform - no issues there. He could be new yes ... yet still people could have stopped in tracks organized and figure out what they were going to do. The Star is not all knowing either, you size up your party and when in doubt ask them for opinons on such, then make your decisions.

And to all of you thinking one person takes blame for a part 4 failure like that? Whatever it be - I may remind you it such is a team effort. The team called it wrong, yes Cary jumped in early but a dead Mts bares little meaning in role after that point... there were eleven other peoapl there I assume? Besides that if Harry was half-dead and people were left why would people bail?

/speedrundonotlootuntilendshrineifyoumustmeetyouinp artfiveifyoudonotlikethisdropgroupnowisfine

[Aurora_nyx]

you know, till this week I really had no problems with groups filling and the like. But I just left a group that took forever to get to 4 people, when I suggested it wasn't that hard of a quest we could go in and just put up lfm, they sort of agreed. We get a 5th and then stand around debating on what dif. to do it at! The run could have been finished in the 20 min it took for them to sit there, and ...bah

I actually left a group...the second time in the same day. First one being a delirium run that the leader forgot to mention was a wipe in progress. I join, get told they are waiting in quest.... waiting meant 11 deaths and we managed to sneak back to the shrine to res before you got in

sunday (i think) I was in a group waiting to run a house j quest... the two casters were busy in pvp instead of the quest. They were trying to figure out why half the quest was done by the time they got around to deciding maybe they should just start the quest with 5 people

did pugs just go a bit wonky this week? I swear it wasn't this bad before

[jkm]

As someone who has played this game an exceptionally long time, I'm a bit saddened by the new sense of entitlement so many new players seem to have.

Amount of experience accumulated while waiting for Fighter to finish his chat with his guildie (where everyone but the guildie is in the quest, mind you): 0

Experience accumulated waiting for you to return from your afk: 0

Experience accumulated while waiting for a new group to assemble after the last one was killed by mom aggro: 0

Now it may be that I'm the problem in thinking that once a group is assembled for a specific run, we should all get our characters to the quest and start the **** run. The quest only takes eight minutes so why I'm having to sit around reading idle chat for half an hour instead of running the quest three times is beyond me.

Just for the record, it's been 32 years since I was actually twelve years old.

so are you saying your tired of waiting for des to log on?