What with more than 1 caster=100% chance on failed raid mentality?

[Vellrad]

My problem with this issue is that I have a caster. He is far from the best, but is a very good caster and I play him very well.

For normal content and raids, I dont mind taking up to 3 casters in my group, providing that they have a good amount of HP like mine, and know how to play their class well. Some things like EXP farming I can even take full caster groups and dont mind doing so.

However I refuse to accept any caster that has fewer than 200 HP at level 12 and up, and fewer than 350 (preferably 400) at level 20, because mine has a lot more than this and it isnt very hard to do.

Also in a lot of 6 man epic groups, there is rarely any space for me to take another caster, as I always like to have my Wizard or someone at least equal to him if I am playing on an alt, one bard and one healer, plus 3 melee DPS characters, or 4 melee DPS if there is no bard available. This is because in epics, I like to cast extended rage, haste, and mass holds / iressistable dance, and having a team of melees to kill stuff while I CC and buff is my favorite approach. Caster damage is useless in epics, other than DoTs on bosses, CCs and some FoD (on enemy casters), Symbol of Death and Circle of Death is what works the best on epic mobs, plus dots on bosses.

I also use a 3 piece epic chrono set, plus an infused chaos robe and eardweller click when casting DoTs on bosses. This gives me a caster level of 24 and double damage which works really well on bosses, and for everything else I have 42 necro, 41 enchant, and 40 conjuration DC. I can handle all of the CC, Death Spells, and caster DPS roles in any epic, I know how to do so and am good at rapidly changing my strategy and approach based on what would work best in any situaton.

The first thing I ask wizards / sorcs that want to join me on my other level 20 character is 'Hi, what is your HP and Enchant DC'. If either is too low, or they try to evade the question with someting like 'I am an Archmage (defense for low HP)', or 'I am a pale master (defense for low enchant DC), I decline them because they are not specced well enough compared to my Wizard.

Probably 90% of wizards / sorcs in this game are complete gimps and built terribly. I refuse to have those in my group, and only want casters from the other 10%.

Who cares on enchant DC if I can finger most mobs in epic quests?
Besides, mind fog is adding A LOT to will based DCs.

[Madryoch]

Who cares on enchant DC if I can finger most mobs in epic quests?
Besides, mind fog is adding A LOT to will based DCs.

Actually the person has no clue what he is talking about ... Perhaps he should learn what crushing despair does. Oh yes i bet -5 will aoe means that u have crappy dcs if u are pale master or sorc ... Obviously he is inthe 10% he wants players from *rolls eyes*


On top of that he thinks his caster is caster dps ... lol ... not bashing on wizards but as i know i ll never reach a pale masters necro dc or an archmage anyschool he picks dc as a sorc i sure know as hell a wizards damage can't even begin to compare to a sorc going all out ...As for his dcs ... uhm righto ... before u9 when i still thought CC was the way my sorc had 41 enchantment dc UnBuffed ... now she has 37 ... i hold monsters almost as often ... Yet my damage went from 1800 crits to 3.3 k crits my spell rotation that is now sp viable makes me outdps any other class in game :P So if u don't take a sorc like me in ur parties cause i have 37 DC... uhm yeah obviously u are doing a gr8 job and it will only take u 2 hours longer to finish.



@Jaid. In my eyes u are theorycrafting ... especially when u say u avoid all the untyped damage ...
First there's lag/delay so what u say is hard if not impossible.
Second if u do that and run around all the time to avoid damage while jumping and casting so u won't slow down u dps less than what u should be unless u can convince me with a video that u can use asdw + right click on mouse to turn midair to shoot or strafe and at the same time maintain a sensible dps rotation...Or u know how to hax and only move when harry's random aggro hits a specific value on 1d12 and that would be u ...
Third from what i can gather here the shroud was used as a typical example of noob leaders who post things like 1 caster is needed since it is a very easy raid... In tod and other raids people TEND to be more skilled so u see that less often (you do see it nevertheless). The thing that peopel were discussing is how hard it is to change the mentality of people who have learned doing things one way but are to stuck with their way to even try something new and will instead follow stereotypes of the past....
Fourth admit it when u are loosing in an argument and stop saying irrelevant obvious things :P You don't have to persuade anyone here if u are pro or not ...The person u were arguing is on my server and has been in a 5 man (3casters 1 healer 1 monk) shroud run and completed for fun ofc even if step one takes forever so you don't need to try and teach her how to do it i believe :P

[protokon]

Remember back when Rangers first became the top anti-boss DPS machines in the game? (this was when the cap was 16, they certainly aren't now). They put out hte best damage and were the most survivable melees to boot.

For a while, noone would take them still.

PUG leaders just haven't learned that anything melees can do, arcanes do quite a bit better (except tank Horoth and one or two other bosses).

this.

There are still people out there stuck in mod 7 mentality (yes, mod not update) and insist you MUST have a warforged tank or you will fail! nevermind that we've had guild pots for over a year now and hp thresholds making it beyond easier to use a fleshy tank with some healing amp.

last time I did tod with my guild, we had a fleshy sorc tank suulo because he accidentally pulled aggro, and we decided to let him just keep it with his DOTs. the one cleric healing him wasn't even stressed to keep him up during the fight.

there are a lot of misconceptions out there that are the norm for pugging. unfortunately one line kind of sums up most pug leader's train of thought, whether there thought process is logical or not:

better safe than sorry.

[Isharah]

as for shroud, well, you picked it out, not me. 250 HP (or even 200 HP) on a caster is certainly not great, but neither is it an instant guaranteed fail.

For this, I reiterate this.

Consistency plays a big role, and with 200 HP I doubt that one could be consistent in terms of survival, unless it's consistently NOT surviving. And this is something that people are trying to avoid by rejecting toons with low HP from Shroud parties.

And for this,

if you don't want shroud to be your example end-game raid, you shouldn't have picked it.

I do not remember me labeling it as an end-game raid, as in one of my previous posts I did mention the raids I consider end-game (ToD, eADQ, eVoN, and eChrono), which have higher requirements than Shroud.

This is becoming a you're-wrong-and-I'm-great thread -- not much constructive criticism. I'm signing off from this argument, so go ahead and feel free to continue proving to yourself that you're great and everyone else sucks.

Just remember to at least try and stay on topic.

Cheers.

[Crystalizer]

also many players just want raids to be done, they don't want to change their habits, they just want to repeat again & again the same stuff the same way. this is a side effect of mmos design which very much pushes players to act this way, since 99% of our time in mmos is about grinding. most old ddo players also act this way. nevermind, stereotypes are numerous and loud in this game.

[sirgog]

Even before the spell pass, casters were DPS if built properly. And the same still goes honestly but it's a little bit better.

I had no issues taking 4 or 5 arcanes in our guild shroud runs, sure the portals were a bit slow, but parts 4 and 5 were fast. And now I still have no issues with 4 or 5 arcanes.

4 casters in part 2 is a fantastic setup.

Each takes one Lieutenant to a corner and solos it. The other 8 do whatever to smash the crystal - Greensteel Chain Lightning clickies, a bow, a returner, whatever.

[Moltier]

For this, I reiterate this.




And for this,



I do not remember me labeling it as an end-game raid, as in one of my previous posts I did mention the raids I consider end-game (ToD, eADQ, eVoN, and eChrono), which have higher requirements than Shroud.

This is becoming a you're-wrong-and-I'm-great thread -- not much constructive criticism. I'm signing off from this argument, so go ahead and feel free to continue proving to yourself that you're great and everyone else sucks.

Just remember to at least try and stay on topic.

Cheers.

When i was newbie, my caster had 270hp and ~8 reflex as archmage. Never died in part 4 or 5. Fire shield is a wonderfull spell there. Sadly only very few caster use it.
With a fire shield and fire prot, even the 200hp "Soul Stone" builds can survive these fights.

[Jaid314]

I do not remember me labeling it as an end-game raid, as in one of my previous posts I did mention the raids I consider end-game (ToD, eADQ, eVoN, and eChrono), which have higher requirements than Shroud.

This is becoming a you're-wrong-and-I'm-great thread -- not much constructive criticism. I'm signing off from this argument, so go ahead and feel free to continue proving to yourself that you're great and everyone else sucks.

Just remember to at least try and stay on topic.

Cheers.

to be fair, ninjaneed originally essentially labeled it as such. you just picked up the line and started defending it:

The mentality behind this is survivability.

Yes casters now do great dps and can easily replace a barb/fighter/paladin ect. But there are too many casters with only 200hp. 200hp is NOT enough to take a hit in a high level raid and survive.

I ran a shroud a couple of days ago and being fully aware of the great dps casters can do I decided to just take the first 9 dps guys to apply (9 + me + 2 healers = 12 btw!). I had four casters apply for the group, did a quick "myddo" search and found three of them had below 250hp so rejected them. Before they were "real" dps this lack of hp was not such a big problem as they just had to stay out of the way and haste/rage the melee, but now they can be the target of a fireball hitting for 300 to 400 damage and then be dead.

there is content where i absolutely would not want a caster with 200 HP in it. shroud is not a problem, provided those casters have those two buffs i mentioned (protection from energy is nice, but not required).

as shroud was the chosen battleground over when 200 HP was appropriate, that's what i responded to. i'll readily agree that 200 HP in ToD is going to be fairly unreliable (the fireballs in ToD part 1, for example, hit much harder and faster than the ones in shroud afaict), but in shroud? only a problem if you stand there staring at the incoming meteor swarm and aren't buffed. this is not to say i haven't seen people get one-shotted by harry before... but you can't tell if it's going to happen based on hit points, because the hit can be mitigated down to much lower quite easily if you care to take the steps needed (move, use defensive buffs).

is it a bit trickier to keep moving while DPSing? sure. but then, you should have been practicing that ever since you made the character pretty much. standing still on a caster is not usually a good idea *anywhere* if you can help it. if you can't handle casting while moving, well... you're probably not cut out to be a caster (and you don't have to move a ton either, all it takes is a little strafing, use your index and pointer for a and d, right hand on the mouse holding right click, and you've got your middle finger available for hitting 2-4 quite easily without stopping at all. if you get a bit more practice, you can easily hit 1 and 5 with your index or pointer, as appropriate, when not running in that direction. if you need to, you can even reassign q and e, and use r, `, and 6 when not moving in those directions. that's 9 different buttons right there... personally, my DPS rotation isn't that many spells, but assuming someone does in fact need to cycle through that many, well... they can.

[DDOisFree]

you know what i hate? people who try to have fun in a way i don't approve of. You! You over there! With the chain lightnings that are nearly one-shotting half a dozen enemies at a time! Stop doing useless damage and change your build to be exactly like mine, you're having BadWrongFun! Get back into that cookie cutter and spam mass hold!

Your chain lightning will not one shot anything on an epic quest. A 1200 damage Necrotic ray doesnt even slightly dent enemy red bars. You would likely end up using your whole SP bar just trying to kill one or two enemies with chain lightning in an epic quest.

Who cares on enchant DC if I can finger most mobs in epic quests?
Besides, mind fog is adding A LOT to will based DCs.

Finger has a 10s cooldown, and Wail / Circle of Death have 30s cooldowns, what exactly do you do in Epic Into the Deep when you have spawns of 10+ enemis coming at your group and they cant all be fingered or killed with one wail? Disco Ball + Mass hold ALWAYS works a lot better in epics, and CC is what casters need to be doing. And even with higher DCs, fort save spells seem to not be as effective as will save spells in most epics.

Also you cant finger any orange names on epics, which also tend to do the most damage. An orange named fire or water elly on Epic will single handedly destroy your whole group if you cant keep it irresistable danced.

Actually the person has no clue what he is talking about ... Perhaps he should learn what crushing despair does.

I play epics everyday very successfully on my caster, and yes CC is all that matters in Epics. You cant DPS or kill everything in sight as a caster on epics, if you think you can then feel free to play them solo.

I dont have space in my level 4 spells for Crushing Despair, there are far too many other spells at level 4 that are required over that one.

When i was newbie, my caster had 270hp and ~8 reflex as archmage. Never died in part 4 or 5. Fire shield is a wonderfull spell there. Sadly only very few caster use it.
With a fire shield and fire prot, even the 200hp "Soul Stone" builds can survive these fights.

IMO EVERY caster should have fireshield memorised 100% of the time. It is that useful and important for keeping you alive especially against elementals and abishais on epic, and definitely far more important than Crushing Despair would be.

[LeLoric]

Your chain lightning will not one shot anything on an epic quest. A 1200 damage Necrotic ray doesnt even slightly dent enemy red bars. You would likely end up using your whole SP bar just trying to kill one or two enemies with chain lightning in an epic quest.



Finger has a 10s cooldown, and Wail / Circle of Death have 30s cooldowns, what exactly do you do in Epic Into the Deep when you have spawns of 10+ enemis coming at your group and they cant all be fingered or killed with one wail? Disco Ball + Mass hold ALWAYS works a lot better in epics, and CC is what casters need to be doing. And even with higher DCs, fort save spells seem to not be as effective as will save spells in most epics.

Also you cant finger any orange names on epics, which also tend to do the most damage. An orange named fire or water elly on Epic will single handedly destroy your whole group if you cant keep it irresistable danced.



I play epics everyday very successfully on my caster, and yes CC is all that matters in Epics. You cant DPS or kill everything in sight as a caster on epics, if you think you can then feel free to play them solo.

I dont have space in my level 4 spells for Crushing Despair, there are far too many other spells at level 4 that are required over that one.



IMO EVERY caster should have fireshield memorised 100% of the time. It is that useful and important for keeping you alive especially against elementals and abishais on epic, and definitely far more important than Crushing Despair would be.

CC on a pale master is not needed. Kill everything: a dead mob is a cc'd mob. Your asessment of most trash hitpoints is severely wrong.

For a sorc, many mobs now have about 2-3k hit points and 1-2 chain lightnings take em down.

If you are still CC'ing everything and bringing along 3-4 melees to beat em all down you aren't doing it right.

[Oracle_Gil]

...If you are still CC'ing everything and bringing along 3-4 melees to beat em all down you aren't doing it right.

I agree. After U9, using PrE with metamagic feats can take down most of them(trash mobs). I only cc when I absolutely need to spend my SP(because otherwise I dont feel like i have used spells) or when I am zerging(too fast to target all, cc, turn your back while running, jump and snipe them with ray PrE). Otherwise I feel like a sniper... by the time mobs realise that they reduced to 6 people from 7, they are gone.
After U9 playstyle has become more diverse. So groups need to change their method to play too. But change even in real life is always hard and slow. People resist as they are more afraid of risks than their want of benefits.

[Phyreball]

So, the group you just clicked on declined you because the leader wants to fill his/her party the way they like to run.
Solution: form your own party and fill it how you like to. Easy.

[DDOisFree]

CC on a pale master is not needed. Kill everything: a dead mob is a cc'd mob. Your asessment of most trash hitpoints is severely wrong.

For a sorc, many mobs now have about 2-3k hit points and 1-2 chain lightnings take em down.

If you are still CC'ing everything and bringing along 3-4 melees to beat em all down you aren't doing it right.

Feel free to complete Into the Deep on Epic without using a single CC, and only death spells or damage spells, upload a video of your success and prove me wrong.

My assesment of trash HP is correct on EPICS. Sorcerers that rely on damage only are completely useless in the end game.

So, the group you just clicked on declined you because the leader wants to fill his/her party the way they like to run.
Solution: form your own party and fill it how you like to. Easy.

Agree. Most people here would completely fail trying to run Into the deep or Small Problem on epic with their casters and no CCs. If you think these epics can be done without CCs, then feel free to make your own groups, play as the only caster yourself and post me a video of your completion without using any CCs and only either death spells or damage spells.

It cannot be done, if you think it can then you have no idea what you are talking about.

If you are still CC'ing everything and bringing along 3-4 melees to beat em all down you aren't doing it right.

Its doing epic right. I'm not bothered about stuff prior epics because it is all easy and can be managed with any caster spec. A lot of epic quests cannot be completed at all with only necro or damage spells.

CC on a pale master is not needed. Kill everything: a dead mob is a cc'd mob. Your asessment of most trash hitpoints is severely wrong.

You cant kill orange named mobs, which are usually the biggest threat to your group in epics, but you can CC them. Pale masters NEED to CC in epics, you cannot get through Into the Deep or Small Problem without casting irressistable dance on the orange name elementals, or using disco balls on some of the end mobs unless all you enjoy doing is watching your party get wiped over and over again.

Everyone needs a CC caster for epics. If you cant, or refuse to CC right, then feel free to make your own groups and dont join mine or anyone elses who request CC wizards.

[Kmnh]

having one known caster is the "idiot-proof" way to do it.

A good caster is better than the average pug melee in almost all situations, but a bad caster is somewhere between "piking" and "making the quest harder". Think of the squishy wizard dotting suulomades on VoD, or any caster dotting bosses on part 2 of the shroud.

When enough people know you and your guild , you can get into all the good parties. The bad ones don't matter anyway

[LeLoric]

Feel free to complete Into the Deep on Epic without using a single CC, and only death spells or damage spells, upload a video of your success and prove me wrong.

My assesment of trash HP is correct on EPICS.



Agree. Most people here would completely fail trying to run Into the deep or Small Problem on epic with their casters and no CCs. If you think these epics can be done without CCs, then feel free to make your own groups, play as the only caster yourself and post me a video of your completion without using any CCs and only either death spells or damage spells.

It cannot be done, if you think it can then you have no idea what you are talking about.



Its doing epic right. I'm not bothered about stuff prior epics because it is all easy and can be managed with any caster spec. A lot of epic quests cannot be completed at all with only necro or damage spells.



You cant kill orange named mobs, which are usually the biggest threat to your group in epics, but you can CC them. Pale masters NEED to CC in epics, you cannot get through Into the Deep or Small Problem without casting irressistable dance on the orange name elementals, or using disco balls on some of the end mobs.

We play a different game apparently.

First rule of forums is never claim someone cant do something. They will and prove you wrong. I neither have the time nor the inclination to make you any videos but it's very easy to do any of these things you said I cant.

Most EPIC MOBs btw have around 2-3k hp. Orange named have more but I still never cc them in most cases except a power word stun for better dmg after I drain half their hp through neg levels. Web occasionally used.

Your small problem ellies. Energy drain, pws, necrotic ray, polar ray means dead ellie. I solo small problem daily and it's really easy.

Once again there is no need to cc in epics. It can be helpful at times but if you are still running single caster 4 melee groups you are doing it rather innefficiently.

[DDOisFree]

I havnt ever seen my 1200 damage necrotic rays reduce any epic mobs HP down by any more than 5-10% or so, so I really dont know where you get that 2-3k HP figure from.

Your small problem ellies. Energy drain, pws, necrotic ray, polar ray means dead ellie. I solo small problem daily and it's really easy.

Not on epic you dont. I ran epic small problem on my Rogue with a newbie DPS specced Wizard, and he exhausted all of SP simply trying to kill a few wolves.

They will and prove you wrong.

Feel free to do so - An EPIC Small problem completion without a single CC spell, and show me evidence. From what I can tell you seem to be confused between epic and casual.

[Vellrad]

The ellies (at least air) are immune to all CC except irresistible dance, and guess what? There is no save, so DC is not important here.
And if mob don't have spell resistance, it can be nerfed with enervation scrolls to point where he saves only on 20.

I didn't said that CC is useless, I said that enchant DC is not the most important thing for someone fingering most mobs he encounters.
BTW, finger cooldown is 8 seconds only, not 10. I can defend my self very well between cooldowns, and finger mobs 1 by 1 if they make their CC saves, as all decent pale masters can.
Besides, web is not an enchantment.

[Kmnh]

Feel free to complete Into the Deep on Epic without using a single CC, and only death spells or damage spells, upload a video of your success and prove me wrong.

My assesment of trash HP is correct on EPICS. Sorcerers that rely on damage only are completely useless in the end game.

This post has made me die a little inside.

See what you have done, with the epic nerfs, devs?

These people don't know how to manage aggro with their casters anymore. Before that silly minion debuff, casters were be the centerpoint of epic parties, using aoe effects to grab aggro from multiple mobs and presenting a displaced wall with 30+ DR to tank. The 2 rogue splashes were perfect for this, with 30+ reflex saves and evasion.

The point of crowd control is to mitigate damage. It doesn't matter if the mobs are dancing or trying to hit the shield-blocking/ kiting sorcerer.

A small problem: drop an acid fog/ice storm at the spawning point and keep the enemy casters facing away from the party. they can deal with the 2 dogs easily enough, and they shouldn't have much trouble pulling the other 2 away from the caster after that.

The deeps left side: equip your cold absorption gear and drop acid fogs/ other aoe spells all over the place. keep the ellies and casters facing away from the party. Once the statue is broken, the melees can kill the trash one by one.

The deeps high-priest fight: same principle, except you also need to aggro the archers.

[DDOisFree]

I'd love to see what Kmnh described done in any of my groups while I'm not playing on my wizard by whichever other caster we have in the group.

I havnt yet seen it. Funilly enough when I'm on my wizard, I get tells all the time from people I've played with on epics before telling me that they need a CC caster, so I must be doing something right if people want to keep on taking me.

[LeLoric]

I havnt ever seen my 1200 damage necrotic rays reduce any epic mobs HP down by any more than 5-10% or so, so I really dont know where you get that 2-3k HP figure from.



Not on epic you dont. I ran epic small problem on my Rogue with a newbie DPS specced Wizard, and he exhausted all of SP simply trying to kill a few wolves.



Feel free to do so - An EPIC Small problem completion without a single CC spell, and show me evidence. From what I can tell you seem to be confused between epic and casual.

Lol troll harder bud. Just cause you can't do something doesn't mean it can't be done. If I really felt you were worth my time I'd go get ya some screen shots when I log on later but I really don't.