Fear of Failure.

[varusso]

Hi. I'm phaythful. and I'm an Arcane Archer.........

Sounds like the beginning of an AAA right? Thats what i feel like almost every time i join a group. They see 16 fvs/1 fighter/1 ranger and immediate red flags go up. To the point where i got booted out of a group because they wanted a "healer" Please not that we didnt even step inside the quest yet. They just took at look at my build and assumed i didnt heal.

My bio states this fact on Phaythful Archer
Bio: Pure Healer/ Burst DPS.
Angel of Vengeance/ Arcane Archer
<3 Manyshot.


I'm an elf fvs of the silver flame, my damage with longbows cant be compared to a "bowbarian" but its better than nothing and! i heal the groups as well....

The reason this group kicked me is because i didnt have "healing weapons" out when we were ready to go on a quest. I have a necklace from amarath on that gives me Wizardry VI and Superior Potency VI, which means i dont have to have healing weapons out, i can keep my bow of sinew out and still heal the same and have 350 additional mana. Regardless.

I'm just wondering am i going to have to expect this every bit of the way? Are people that close minded? Should i fear failure in the build? OR should i just keep going.

Choosing an "alternate build" is 100% fine, but it comes with consequences such as these.

Here is your problem in a nutshell:
(1) Your bio really isnt going to make a difference. Alot of players dont read them. They cant see your bio in the LFM interface or when you apply for an LFM. It isnt visible when standing next to you unless they ID you. If there is something in your bio that you think is important info for others in your group, you should tell them yourself. Its rather like having info on your business card -- in your wallet.
(2) FVS and clerics generally come in two main flavors: Healers and Battleclerics -- with it being generally ore common among FVS. In general, these two playstyles do not mesh -- that is, it is completely possible to do both, but it is not common for a player to actually do so. They generally are either one OR the other. Whether or not this is a fact isnt even relevant -- this is the player perception, ergo it is the only "fact" that matters.
(3) Knowing this, when players see you walk up to the group wearing a bow, the immediately think PEW PEW! and assume your first priority is NOT going to be healing. Remember, they cant SEE your necklace, to know that you have your potency on it. The most common place for healing boosters is on your wpn, followed by your shield. All they see is a FVS wannabe archer. Experience has taught us all that those players suck as healers, because they are focusing on something else.
(4) Your build itself only lends more credence to this assumption. Looking at it, the PL probably assumed you were a BC or an AA, and the bow only confirmed it. I personally would have asked before recruiting you if you could handle the heals, and taken you at your word until proven otherwise. Many players will not.

Expect things like this constantly unless you take a proactive stance on it. Talk to your group. Accept that you are going to have to explain yourself over and over, and prove yourself over and over -- until you build up a good reputation and a 'fanbase' on your server. Prove yourself a good healer and you will get added to friends lists and invited constantly -- whether you want it or not Make your own groups or run with friends and guildies. Mainly though, the key is communication. If you are talking with the rest of the group, they are more apt to ask "dude whats up with the bow" than to just kick you without comment. Thus you get the chance to link your necklace and talk about your build etc. Oh and word to the wise: starting your intro to the group with "dont worry about my bow <link to necklace>" or some such similar comes across as defensive and desperate -- both of which put you on lower ground. Just talk to your grouo. It solves alot, and makes it more fun anyway

[Braegan]

I'm just wondering am i going to have to expect this every bit of the way? Are people that close minded? Should i fear failure in the build? OR should i just keep going.

It's going to be that way until you set a name for yourself proving otherwise. Unfortunately there have been alot of previous attempts of stellar builds in less talented hands giving entire classes and some builds bad names in general that make party leaders hesitant to invite. The old once bitten, twice shy mentality. It sucks, but it is what it is.

Depening on the lfms it might be better for you to start your own groups and show people consistently that you can keep a decent group going through a challenging quest while doing your pew pew. After doing that some you should develope a reputation that will get you on the receiving ends of /tells when you log in.

It seems like an uphill battle at times. But I'd rather (and did...and continue to) prove myself and my characters then re-roll into what the mainstream accepts as normal and rob myself of unique characters that I enjoy playing sucessfully.

Also, Pro Tip: Since you have the Amrath Neck I can assume you have the pack and/or are ViP. Get yourself the devotion belt clickies if you haven't already. They are more better.

[Der_Incubo]

Run with you now on many quests Phaythful, your build seems pretty solid to me mate. Never had the slightest problem with you.

This too... hell ive never realized you had a split in the times ive ran with ya.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

As a general rule: if you get declined, you probably didn't want to be in that group anyway.

Even more so if you are a healer.

[Alanim]

You shouldn't worry about it, these are also the same people that will decline you for having -40hp from the norm(equipment based), while running content like ToD on Normal. It appears Cannith is starting to build up a population of those elitists. I'd certainly accept you in any group I run.

Like for example, I joined a twice TRed AA running a "New Invasion" just to help them out with flagging. I ask if they want to go in now(This quest is painfully easy on Normal), and they say they'd rather wait for a healer, I say "I could heal through this" he then proceeds to look me up in MyDDO and say how he has more SP then me, and that I couldn't heal two people, logs off, and swaps toons. My squelch list went from 1 to 2 after that.

You've just got to move on, and squelch those who judge something by it's cover.

[varusso]

You've just got to move on, and squelch those who judge something by it's cover.

This is actually a bit of an unfair assessment. Most people who make these sorts of snap decisions are basing them off of two things:
(1) Their personal experience with Class X, and how it plays for THEM, based on certain criteria (such as HP and SP). Individual players may be better at it, but what they have to go on is what they have seen.
(2) What they have seen other players doing with that set-up. IE: They ran with 4 or 5 people who were battleclerics, and all or most of those people displayed the stereotypical "i DPS i dont heal' attitude. So when another 8celr/1fight tries to join, they see "BC, dont heal" based on the ACTIONS of others.

The rest is pure hearsay on forums and from other folks in-game, with no firsthand experience at all. Or just flat out ignorance. THOSE people are definitely worth a /squelch. But then...which of the three types of player did you just encounter...? See the irony there?

[Alanim]

The rest is pure hearsay on forums and from other folks in-game, with no firsthand experience at all. Or just flat out ignorance. THOSE people are definitely worth a /squelch. But then...which of the three types of player did you just encounter...? See the irony there?

Well, pretty sure he'd be right to squelch the people who declined/kicked him. I've been in alot of groups recently where the healers are AA's you never really notice they're shooting till you see those slayer arrow procs. Pretty much every single one of them has done a great job healing. It's the healbots that I normally find the problems with.

[pHo3nix]

This is actually a bit of an unfair assessment. Most people who make these sorts of snap decisions are basing them off of two things:
(1) Their personal experience with Class X, and how it plays for THEM, based on certain criteria (such as HP and SP). Individual players may be better at it, but what they have to go on is what they have seen.
(2) What they have seen other players doing with that set-up. IE: They ran with 4 or 5 people who were battleclerics, and all or most of those people displayed the stereotypical "i DPS i dont heal' attitude. So when another 8celr/1fight tries to join, they see "BC, dont heal" based on the ACTIONS of others.

The rest is pure hearsay on forums and from other folks in-game, with no firsthand experience at all. Or just flat out ignorance. THOSE people are definitely worth a /squelch. But then...which of the three types of player did you just encounter...? See the irony there?

Every cleric/fvs should be able to do at least 2 things: heal and melee or heal and offensive casting. The problem is a lot of lfm looking for fvs/clr just want a nannybot that just stay back and heal, a sort of improved (hopefully ) hireling. There are really few quests that require a clr/fvs to play the nanny role, in the rest of the game staying back and healing is just a waste of a party slot.

OP, just start your lfm or join the ones tagged as BYOH, in those group you can do whatever you want and you're not expected to babysit

[varusso]

Well, pretty sure he'd be right to squelch the people who declined/kicked him. I've been in alot of groups recently where the healers are AA's you never really notice they're shooting till you see those slayer arrow procs. Pretty much every single one of them has done a great job healing. It's the healbots that I normally find the problems with.

Every cleric/fvs should be able to do at least 2 things: heal and melee or heal and offensive casting. The problem is a lot of lfm looking for fvs/clr just want a nannybot that just stay back and heal, a sort of improved (hopefully ) hireling. There are really few quests that require a clr/fvs to play the nanny role, in the rest of the game staying back and healing is just a waste of a party slot.

OP, just start your lfm or join the ones tagged as BYOH, in those group you can do whatever you want and you're not expected to babysit

I 100% agree that a white hat can perform multiple roles and still be effective as the main healer. The problem is that too many PLAYERS are not capable of doing this. Many folks simply are not as good at multitasking in this manner, and just going by raw statistics, you are going to run into far more subpar performances than stellar ones. Not to mention undergeared, underplayed, inexperienced, toons/players with less than uber builds. If a player is focusing on ONE thing, they are more apt to be able to handle that ONE thing than if they try and do other things, too. Experience has taught many of us that a "healer" who snipes at stuff is going to end up missing critical heals when mob burst damage kicks in. Fair or not, thats how it is.

Hence, while I 100% support people playing what they like (assuming they are capable), I also accept that playing alternative style toons will not be well-received in a group of complete strangers until/unless I have built a general rep among the playerbase.

I grin everytime I hear someone say "Hey your voice sounds familiar...arent you that guy that was in X quest with us on your Y toon?"
"yeah, that was me. I'm trying something oddball with this toon, though, so bear with me."
"Yeah, what were you thinking? That just looks bizarre."
"Well see it goes like this..."

Even if I totally bork it up badly, at least the overall experience for the group ends up better. And they know going in what to expect. I completely eliminate pre-set assumptions based on OTHER players' performances. And the group KNOWS right away that what they may expect based on my icons may not necessarily be what they are gong to get.

A potent example would be the rogue i am working on. He is an assassin. Now say that in a group and they will automatically assume you cant do traps, and may boot you. Mine CAN do traps. Not sure how he is going to end up as far as DPS at end-game, so I fully expect to have to remake him a few times until I get it right, cos I want to build him MYSELF, not copy someone else's build. But the average player has been taught that assassins suck at traps.

[Ninety0ne]

Start your own groups. Read up on ddowiki to learn a quest and lead the party. Its a great way to meet other players and show your own skills.
That being said some people (myself included) would be concerned about anyone's ability to multitask three timers (manyshot, DP, mass heal) as well as aggro management with a manyshotting divine punishing guy ganking aggro and kiting a boss. While less meaningful in guild runs or static groups it can be disastrous in pugs so some, will shy away from anything divergent from the normal formula.
But again if you have the star you make the call and players will notice your leadership.

As a disclaimer I ran dust with this guy and he did well.

[TheIvanovFamily]

Personally, if there's an archer in the group, I would prefer it to be the Divine rather than one of the melees. Most Divines just stand around if there isn't any healing to be done, so at least a bow-capable divine can still provide useful (if sub-par compared to spec'd melee) dps and utility effects (para, stat damage, etc) instead of being a green-number-generating paperweight.

And if the divine archer gets agro, guess what? He/she most likely won't run around screaming for hjeals, he/she will sit there and let melee beat it down, or if he/she has aggro'd multiples with IPS he/she will probably just drop a BB and kill them all him/herself. As long as they know the difference between hjealing time and pewpew time, it's all good.

The More You Know.

[Chai]

The main issue with archers is the same as the issue with rogues a while ago. There are too many bad ones that it gives the class / PRE a bad name.

The two big indicators I look for in a good AA.

1. Decent str score. Dumped str means lots of mad mobs and very few dead mobs. Not pretty once you get into amrath where getting aggro means mobs teleport right on top of you.

2. Melee weapon usage. I shoot it, I kill it. Its either gonna die before it gets to me, or its gonna die tired running to me only to fall to my blades. A bad AA here becomes a kiting dweeb, and not only can they not kill stuff, but their melee groupmates have a hard time hitting the mobs to kill them as well.

[kjohnson1990]

Yep. Thanks for all the input guys. I'm going to keep on going because of what some people have said.

Like brakkart who said he never had a problem with me and then Der_Incubo saying he never realized i was a split build. Through my feat choices for AA and splittig classes( i wont go into detail) I'm able to have empower healing, quicken, and maximize spell. Which means my mass heals hit hard, while my mass cure's will hit hard, but not as hard because of lack of empower spell.

You guys have said it all. Its not me. Its people. All i have to do is find the right kind. Been running with a good group of people these last few days and its really turned my attitude around. I just hit lv 17 FvS so I now have my wings, which is so badass with a bow i cant even begin to say how freakin excited i am to do more amrath quests!!! lol.

I know i should have expected critisim to begin with, and that i shouldnt have expected people to be so accepting. But i figured common sense would tell people, Fighter for extra feat (manyshot) and 1 ranger for "Bow Strength". And Elf + FVS for the +6 to damage and +5 to hit with bows. There's no way i'd be able to ammount to the damage i do with my bow... that even includes a maximized/empowered fvs silver flame capstone. There's just no comparison. Especially when i get arrows of slaying.

I like how someone said. "I would rather have a divine be a AA then a melee, because while melee can do good as a AA why not have the healer who majority of the times pikes through quests, at least they can pew pew something and remain somewhat useful" This was my thought exactly when... randomly throwing this build together. lol.

Its fun. I like it. Its viable. <------ SOME People, are none of those things.