Special Prestige Enhancements for Multiclassers

[bkasavan]

, A ranger can't just become an arcane archer without levels in an arcane class.

Just one thing, a ranger can, because he does get the SP's, a Ranger AA does not need to multiclass.

[Bodic]

5 levels in Ranger + 5 levels in Cleric = Druid

Uhm this is so not right for so many reasons.

First NGE would be replaced my DDO.
Those faithful 5 year customers would ragequit and never comeback.
I am thinking pure class/race PrE's, before multiclass.
I could go on, but I am sure its been covered.

I will say nice try, but no gas money.

[Chrasch]

Uhm this is so not right for so many reasons.

First NGE would be replaced my DDO.
Those faithful 5 year customers would ragequit and never comeback.
I am thinking pure class/race PrE's, before multiclass.
I could go on, but I am sure its been covered.

I will say nice try, but no gas money.

There are already a bunch of those. This game encourages originality but only up until a certain point. Ask anyone what they think of a 10/10 split and they'll say you're stupid. Why? It's my character. I'll do what i want with it. Why shouldn't i get a nifty boost just because i don't like pure leveling?

[Doomcrew]

There are already a bunch of those. This game encourages originality but only up until a certain point. Ask anyone what they think of a 10/10 split and they'll say you're stupid. Why? It's my character. I'll do what i want with it. Why shouldn't i get a nifty boost just because i don't like pure leveling?

Devil's Advocate, why should you get a "boost" for combining two classes
with little synergy?

If one chooses to make a flavour build,they may do so. But the game shouldn't
be expected to make one's build more viable.

Multi-classing can be fun, but poor choices may leave one to re-rolling or
re-incarnating in the higher levels as the game and other players pass them
by.

Just my thoughts.

[Grenada]

Can't resist adding to list...:
Monk sorcerer: Dragon disciple (must have a certain tier of the stance that matches your savant choice; this determines the dragon type(s) available to you)
Rogue sorcerer: Spell thief (mechanics only), Renamed assassin from DM guide v3.5 (assassin only, adds some espionage style SLAs)
Ranger sorcerer: Horizon walker
Fighter Pally: Greyguard (SD only, give some more boosts to the PrE, but keep the feel of the PrC) or Samurai (kensai)
Ranger rogue: scout (Thief Acrobat only)

And finally:
Barbarian monk: SUPER SEIYAN!!!

[Lycurgus]

Don't like this idea at all, although it sounds "fun" at face value.

Pre for Kensai/Tempest: you win. No, really, you win, the game is broken now, g'bye.

[Chrasch]

Can't resist adding to list...:
Monk sorcerer: Dragon disciple (must have a certain tier of the stance that matches your savant choice; this determines the dragon type(s) available to you)
Rogue sorcerer: Spell thief (mechanics only), Renamed assassin from DM guide v3.5 (assassin only, adds some espionage style SLAs)
Ranger sorcerer: Horizon walker
Fighter Pally: Greyguard (SD only, give some more boosts to the PrE, but keep the feel of the PrC) or Samurai (kensai)
Ranger rogue: scout (Thief Acrobat only)

And finally:
Barbarian monk: SUPER SEIYAN!!!

Are those all actual classes? Because some of them sound righteous. Super Saiyan would be a little(A LOT) broken don't ya think? XD

[phum]

Devil's Advocate, why should you get a "boost" for combining two classes
with little synergy?

If one chooses to make a flavour build,they may do so. But the game shouldn't
be expected to make one's build more viable.

Multi-classing can be fun, but poor choices may leave one to re-rolling or
re-incarnating in the higher levels as the game and other players pass them
by.

Just my thoughts.

I get your point, but the goal of the game is to have fun is it not? If multiclassing wasn't an essential part of d&d i would maybe partly agree with you, but I'm absolutely sure there are many who find it very much fun.

As you say, currently not properly planned multiclassing can be disastrous. Giving some viability to at least few of the currently unpractical builds would not break the game would it? It would make the people playing them keep playing a bit longer. Every reroll is a high chance for rq and i doubt turbine likes those

Actually I'd guess more of the wildest mc builds would gravitate towards mc enhancements and the amount of useless ones would thus decrease. This is pure speculation tho and depends largely on balance issues on how they would be implemented.

[Doomcrew]

I get your point, but the goal of the game is to have fun is it not? If multiclassing wasn't an essential part of d&d i would maybe partly agree with you, but I'm absolutely sure there are many who find it very much fun.

As you say, currently not properly planned multiclassing can be disastrous. Giving some viability to at least few of the currently unpractical builds would not break the game would it? It would make the people playing them keep playing a bit longer. Every reroll is a high chance for rq and i doubt turbine likes those

Actually I'd guess more of the wildest mc builds would gravitate towards mc enhancements and the amount of useless ones would thus decrease. This is pure speculation tho and depends largely on balance issues on how they would be implemented.

In almost 5 years of playing, I've yet to cap a "pure" class. I love MC'ing and find it very
rewarding, but there comes a time when the impractical builds lose their lustre and are no
longer fun to play.

If you run in a tight guild or with friends a lot, you will be able to level the flavour builds. As
time goes on, pugging those builds into Raids or even regular quests will become more of an
issue.

This isn't about saying don't do things "your" way so much as this is what to expect.

Cheers, have fun.

[Grenada]

Are those all actual classes? Because some of them sound righteous. Super Saiyan would be a little(A LOT) broken don't ya think? XD

They are all actual prestige classes or supplementary classes (from books such as complete adventurer and complete scoundrel, both v3.5 books), except the super saiyan one (but really, its not OP at all... )

Also a few prestige classes from the DM guide 3.5

Edit: samurai the way I was thinking I don't think exists, though there are guide on how to change the pally class into a samurai for oriental campaigns (no source to tell your where to look, sorry)

[Chrasch]

They are all actual prestige classes or supplementary classes (from books such as complete adventurer and complete scoundrel, both v3.5 books), except the super saiyan one (but really, its not OP at all... )

Also a few prestige classes from the DM guide 3.5

Edit: samurai the way I was thinking I don't think exists, though there are guide on how to change the pally class into a samurai for oriental campaigns (no source to tell your where to look, sorry)

I'm glad to see that there is someone who sees this from my exact point of view. They just can't do some classes as starters. Druid for example has been said to be far too OP for DDO. So it would make sense that you could become a Druid when getting to Level 10 with Ranger and Cleric(I picked Cleric because I read that Druids use Divine element magick. That way you don't just slaughter the game early on.

[Grenada]

I'm glad to see that there is someone who sees this from my exact point of view. They just can't do some classes as starters. Druid for example has been said to be far too OP for DDO. So it would make sense that you could become a Druid when getting to Level 10 with Ranger and Cleric(I picked Cleric because I read that Druids use Divine element magick. That way you don't just slaughter the game early on.

Druids are an original class, I want them to be a class, not a PrE. (honestly, the only reason they seem OP is because I don't think people realize that they are NOT healers, they are wizards that use the divine power of nature rather than arcane tomes to accomplish their goals)
(shapeshifting was accomplished in pnp with a variety of different spells, many of them available to arcane casters as well)

So I agree with your idea, but not regarding Druids

[protokon]

Eldritch knight would be sweet. Pre's requiring class splits would be really cool to see implemented.

[Chrasch]

Eldritch knight would be sweet. Pre's requiring class splits would be really cool to see implemented.

I wonder who would win between a Swordmage and Eldritch Knight?

[phum]

In almost 5 years of playing, I've yet to cap a "pure" class. I love MC'ing and find it very
rewarding, but there comes a time when the impractical builds lose their lustre and are no
longer fun to play.

If you run in a tight guild or with friends a lot, you will be able to level the flavour builds. As
time goes on, pugging those builds into Raids or even regular quests will become more of an
issue.

This isn't about saying don't do things "your" way so much as this is what to expect.

Cheers, have fun.

I agree completely that other peoples conceptions/assumptions are very important for multiclasses. Guess I misinterpreted you to some extent (sorry, if I was a bit offensive about it^^), but I still kinda hope/think that the situation could improve, if more of those builds were more viable. Of course I realize it's very optimistic to think that way

[Maxson]

Just one thing, a ranger can, because he does get the SP's, a Ranger AA does not need to multiclass.

I meant traditionally, in DnD to be an arcane archer you need to be able to cast arcane spells. Therefore, what I'm saying is that Prestige Classes in DnD which are usually the fare of the multiclasser are already implemented as bonuses to single classes in DDO...I'm pretty surprised we aren't already seeing a Fighter prestige "Eldritch Knight" which gives them some spell-like abilities such as a few casts of haste a day.

I would tend to disagree with that. As it is, most players grav towards established builds, with flavor builds being vastly inferior and non-viable. A 10/10 split would have little chance of survival nearing end-game. ADDing value to 10/10 splits or 7/6/7's or whatever, would make flavor builds MORE attractive, I'd think.

Hrm, I concede that you have a point there, but I still think that the only way to make it viable is to vastly overpower the PrE (making people very likely to pick it, I mean, arcane AND divine spellcasting in 1 toon?), and that it would take a whole lot of fudging to make it work in the engine (turbine seems unable at times to make things work, mystic theurge sounds like a nightmare).

On mystic theurge, a myistic theurge develops it's spells as if a member of both it's spellcasting classes, if you only get 3 "levels" of a Prestige Enhancement how does it work? Does Mystic Theurge I make a 5 wiz/5 cleric suddenly have the spell list of a 10 wiz/10 cleric? Do you have to maintain even levels of the two to get Mystic Theurge II? I honestly think the only way it might even remotely happen is if allowing a pure class toon to have some spell like abilities from the other class.

While DDO isn't cvery focused on balance, I can't see allowing 1 toon access to Arcane and divine in full being very fair, Favored Souls are already overpowered, and a level 20 sorc is also very overpowered, why play anything else when you can drop a firewall and then just spam heal yourself, with stoneskin and haste on in the middle?

edit: part of the problem with the above is that there's no incentive to BE a pure cleric in DDO, they're divine spellcasters, end of story, it's all about the spells, and never about the class feats for a cleric, partially because a number of them are missing from the game. The drawback of the theurge is that it doesn't get class feats, such as the Wizard's bonus metamagic feats, implemented in DDO the only drawback would be LESS wizard metamagic feats. The only drawback from the cleric side of things is um....um....None, because turn undead is useless eventually anyhow. I suppose you can't be a radiant servant, for all the good it does in places like the shroud where you can't hug the group anyhow.

edit again: multiclasses can already have 2 different PrEs, such as the fighter/wizard kensai/pale masters I see quite commonly, or the deepwood sniper/mechanics that're sadly rarer because ranged weapons are soooo broken.

[Razcar]

I would instead prefer if they just disconnected the PrE's from the classes.
Keep the PrE's on their levels (maybe ease up a little on the requirements for some) but do not make it mandatory to have 6, 12 or 18 levels in a certain class to take them, outside of the class Enhancements required.

For example, Frenzied Berserker I. Keep the requirements at Power Attack, Cleave Barbarian Power Attack I, Barbarian Power Rage I, Barbarian Damage Boost II, but scrap Barbarian 6 and make it BAB 6 instead.

Then you could qualify for FB 1 as a 4 Barbarian 2 Fighter, or 4 Barb 3 Bard, for example.

Or make a Tempest II fighter, if you are willing to spend the feats. Or a Kensai II barbarian if you spend the feats needed and take 4 levels of fighter for Fighter Attack Boost II. Maybe a Kensai 1 Fighter 4 Sorc 16.

This would open up the system and make for a lots of fun combinations. Builders would have a field day. It would also open up the currently locked down 6 - 12 - 18 required levels in certain classes we see so much now. And pure classes already have their powerful capstones to makes them viable.

[Maxson]

I would instead prefer if they just disconnected the PrE's from the classes.
Keep the PrE's on their levels (maybe ease up a little on the requirements for some) but do not make it mandatory to have 6, 12 or 18 levels in a certain class to take them, outside of the class Enhancements required.

For example, Frenzied Berserker I. Keep the requirements at Power Attack, Cleave Barbarian Power Attack I, Barbarian Power Rage I, Barbarian Damage Boost II, but scrap Barbarian 6 and make it BAB 6 instead.

Then you could qualify for FB 1 as a 4 Barbarian 2 Fighter, or 4 Barb 3 Bard, for example.

Or make a Tempest II fighter, if you are willing to spend the feats. Or a Kensai II barbarian if you spend the feats needed and take 4 levels of fighter for Fighter Attack Boost II. Maybe a Kensai 1 Fighter 4 Sorc 16.

This would open up the system and make for a lots of fun combinations. Builders would have a field day. It would also open up the currently locked down 6 - 12 - 18 required levels in certain classes we see so much now. And pure classes already have their powerful capstones to makes them viable.

Probably the best suggestion on the idea so far to be honest, prestige enhancements could quite easily just be implemented as things you can take if you just meet the requirements or the prestige class they're based on in some way, I still wouldn't put mystic theurge in though.

[LoveNeverFails]

There are already a bunch of those. This game encourages originality but only up until a certain point. Ask anyone what they think of a 10/10 split and they'll say you're stupid. Why? It's my character. I'll do what i want with it. Why shouldn't i get a nifty boost just because i don't like pure leveling?

Not necessarily true. A 10/10 split cleric/wiz? That is stupid. A 10/10 split of...well...anything else with a bit more synergy then that, not so much. I don't think the devs should go out of their way to make people who make poor multiclassing decisions viable endgame. You wannt split two casting classes like that? go ahead. Good luck after level 5.

[Antheal]

They should just have the racial prestiges finished to tier 3 for each, first. They can take the place of multiclass prestiges for now.