28 pt Dwarf Pally input and critiques appreciated

[Iron_Chest]

My friends and I have started a static group to play weekly. The group consists of a rogue, wizard, cleric, monk, and this dwarf pally. Since my friend uses a mac and can't download the character planner, he asked me to build him a character based on some minor criteria. Dwarf, 28 point, paladin DoS (can be multiclass), and THF.

What I made was a THF hate-tank 18/2 pally/fighter with the option to pick up a waraxe and shield.

Any criticism would be great. Thanks.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.9.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Dwarf Male
(2 Fighter \ 18 Paladin) 
Hit Points: 342
Spell Points: 230 
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 26
Reflex: 13
Will: 13

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats         Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 20)           (Level 20)
Strength             16                 21                   22
Dexterity             8                  8                    8
Constitution         16                 16                   18
Intelligence         10                 10                   10
Wisdom                8                  8                    8
Charisma             14                 16                   18

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills        Base Skills        Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)          (Level 20)          (Level 20)
Balance               0                  4                    8
Bluff                 2                  4                    4
Concentration         3                  4                    7
Diplomacy             2                  4                    4
Disable Device        n/a               n/a                   n/a
Haggle                2                  4                    4
Heal                 -1                 -1                   -1
Hide                 -1                 -1                   -1
Intimidate            6                 27                   31
Jump                  4                 10                   10
Listen               -1                 -1                   -1
Move Silently        -1                 -1                   -1
Open Lock            n/a               n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a               n/a                   n/a
Repair                0                  0                    0
Search                0                  0                    2
Spot                 -1                 -1                   -1
Swim                  3                  6                    6
Tumble               n/a                 2                    2
Use Magic Device      n/a               n/a                   n/a

Level 1 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+4)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting


Level 2 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Shield Mastery


Level 3 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 4 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Cleave


Level 5 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting


Level 7 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)


Level 8 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)


Level 9 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 10 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+0.5)


Level 11 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)


Level 12 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting


Level 13 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)


Level 14 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)


Level 15 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 16 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+0.5)


Level 17 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Bash


Level 19 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)


Level 20 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Enhancement: Paladin Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution II
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good III
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good III
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Righteousness I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice II
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil IV
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys I
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys II
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate I
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate II
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate III
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate IV
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Light I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Light II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Light III
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II

[Ungood]

You might want to put those skill points into Intimidate if you plan to do a defender build.

Otherwise, looks solid.

[Iron_Chest]

I was trying to build it without intimidate. Personally, I don't like having to switch equipment for a high intimidate. The skill points are tight as well. I figured 95% of the time this character would be running around swinging a greataxe. For the other 5% he could use divine righteousness and hate tank. Is this viable?

[t0r012]

does it really have to be a dwarf?

anyway , cleave? i'd drop that in favor of extend and would move the toughness up to that slot and have extend at the end.

I personally would drop the dwarf spell defense APs for more of just about anything else.

edit:
oh and i should mention you don't need to take shield mastery since you are taking a fighter level and getting tower shield proficiency to qualify for DS1 so you can throw another feat at it.

[SisAmethyst]

Why not put the 2 points in WIS instead to DEX for better reflex saves and higher possible AC (I know it doesn't matter that much at high end)? As a Paladin the min WIS to cast all spells is 14, and with a +6 WIS item you could start with a base of 8. An other option maybe would be to put 2 points in INT for more skill points so that you could boost as well intimidate. Even if you not like it that much, it is sometimes helpful and handy to have (Keep in mind that intimidate is now a class skill for Paladins) and if it is just for the trash.

Last but not least about the skill points. The half point in jump will not help you much also remember that jump caps and with a caster and ship buffs you probably not need much points in there anyway. Also maybe push tumble a bit higher as you want to be able to tumble in armor and not just naked. I also don't really understand the reason for the point in Concentration. Most of the Paladin spells are of buff nature so something you do before you enter a fight.

[voxson5]

Also try the online charcter gen http://www.ddochargen.com/home.aspx, that should work on safari

[SisAmethyst]

I was trying to build it without intimidate. Personally, I don't like having to switch equipment for a high intimidate. The skill points are tight as well. I figured 95% of the time this character would be running around swinging a greataxe. For the other 5% he could use divine righteousness and hate tank. Is this viable?

Regarding your question about divine righteousness I will cite from Junts article A Guide to Creating Paladins:
"...Paladins gain two ways to get threat enhancement: The divine righteousness ability, which is a 1 minute, 100% sacred bonus, and the passive bonus of the Defender of Siberys defensive stances (25%/33%/50% per tier, also sacred bonus).

The two don't stack, but the defensive stance lets you gain a bonus without spending a turn undead attempt (which conflicts with divine might). Essentially, you can use the stance bonus to supplement your threat during extremely long raid fights where you have ample time by yourself with the boss (for example, tanking Horoth) and use the clicky for more intense situations.

These bonuses stack with the bonuses available on equipment in an additive fashion (eg if you have a +20% item, you'd have a total of +120% to your threat with righteousness active). Since you're unlikely to have more than two item bonuses (totalling 30 or 35%, probably), you need a decent number of base damage dealt to ensure that you can keep up with people who are naturally using better combat styles and more specced for damage dealing.

Using the intimidate skill will also, regardless of success, give you a +100% threat buff for 12 seconds (the cooldown is 15 seconds) when using a shield, or a 50% buff for 6 seconds when not using a shield. Paladins mixing this buff with their stance and divine righteousness should have little issues maintaining aggro over even players much better equipped than they are, as long as they have at least decent equipment and build choices..."

[Iron_Chest]

does it really have to be a dwarf?

My buddy likes dwarves.

anyway , cleave? i'd drop that in favor of extend and would move the toughness up to that slot and have extend at the end.

I don't know alot about paladins, never played one. However, I've played alot on my barbarian and I love cleave. I can't imagine playing a melee without it.

I personally would drop the dwarf spell defense APs for more of just about anything else.

These are a great defense for a barbarian. I don't know if they are worth while on a pally. Perhaps DA enhancements would be better?

oh and i should mention you don't need to take shield mastery since you are taking a fighter level and getting tower shield proficiency to qualify for DS1 so you can throw another feat at it.

This was for the 20% decrease to physical damage vulnerability, not to qualify for DS1.

Why not put the 2 points in WIS instead to DEX for better reflex saves and higher possible AC (I know it doesn't matter that much at high end)? As a Paladin the min WIS to cast all spells is 14, and with a +6 WIS item you could start with a base of 8. An other option maybe would be to put 2 points in INT for more skill points so that you could boost as well intimidate. Even if you not like it that much, it is sometimes helpful and handy to have (Keep in mind that intimidate is now a class skill for Paladins) and if it is just for the trash.

I did this for ease of use. This is so my buddy has an easier time casting his first levels of spells.

Last but not least about the skill points. The half point in jump will not help you much also remember that jump caps and with a caster and ship buffs you probably not need much points in there anyway. Also maybe push tumble a bit higher as you want to be able to tumble in armor and not just naked. I also don't really understand the reason for the point in Concentration. Most of the Paladin spells are of buff nature so something you do before you enter a fight.

Thanks for the suggestions. I figured jump and balance to be about the most important skills on this build. I didn't put any points in concentration.

Thanks for all the input.

[Iron_Chest]

Using the intimidate skill will also, regardless of success, give you a +100% threat buff for 12 seconds (the cooldown is 15 seconds) when using a shield, or a 50% buff for 6 seconds when not using a shield. Paladins mixing this buff with their stance and divine righteousness should have little issues maintaining aggro over even players much better equipped than they are, as long as they have at least decent equipment and build choices..."

Oh wow, I didn't know that. Well that makes intimidate worth it then. When was this implemented?

[SisAmethyst]

...
I did this for ease of use. This is so my buddy has an easier time casting his first levels of spells.

Thanks for the suggestions. I figured jump and balance to be about the most important skills on this build. I didn't put any points in concentration...

Well, at level 4 a paladin with 10 WIS has 17SP so even if you could, that SP won't help you anything. Instead of trying to cast 'Cure Light Wounds' you better of using a wand which you can do without failure as a Paladin regardless of your WIS. Also keep in mind that at lower levels buffs last a lot shorter, so most of the time you are even better served using pots at those levels anyway.

And you are right that jump and tumble are more important then other skills (like swim), but there are so many possibilities to buff jump. Even if you solo without a caster you could get the jump spell from the Phiarlan favor. Tumble is important in that point as your movement in the DoS stance is reduced so you want to have tumble to move instead. But for that you need an effective total modifier that is positive including the penalty for wearing an armor and shield (Armor Check Penalty of a Mithral Full Plate is -3 if I am not wrong).

Oh wow, I didn't know that. Well that makes intimidate worth it then. When was this implemented?

Not 100% certain, but the recent update 9 brought a lot of changes regarding intimidate.

PS: With a 10 base INT you only need a +3 INT tome (20 shroud) to qualify for Combat Expertise.

[ragwa1]

My buddy likes dwarves.


I don't know alot about paladins, never played one. However, I've played alot on my barbarian and I love cleave. I can't imagine playing a melee without it.


These are a great defense for a barbarian. I don't know if they are worth while on a pally. Perhaps DA enhancements would be better?


This was for the 20% decrease to physical damage vulnerability, not to qualify for DS1.


I did this for ease of use. This is so my buddy has an easier time casting his first levels of spells.


Thanks for the suggestions. I figured jump and balance to be about the most important skills on this build. I didn't put any points in concentration.

Thanks for all the input.

What is the point in asking for critique and help if you are just going to shut down and vaiable good help you are offered?

I mean really, all these suggestions people are offering(in which you asked for) WILL help your build and WILL make it a better dps option.

[Iron_Chest]

Ok, I adjusted the build. Now as it stands I've invested 3 ranks in tumble, 4 in jump, 5 in balance, and 23 in intimidate. Thanks for all the help.

[Kourier]

I think the buff only applies if you succeed on intimidate. But even with just a plain +6 cha item and +15 intimidate item your intimidate should be good enough for corralling trash mobs easy.

[t0r012]

Stuff in red

My buddy likes dwarves.
any chance of talking him in to Stalwart Defender? for a stat intensive, Feat and AP starved, crit hungry build like a paladin going with a 28 point toon that takes a penalty in a prime stat with a racial weapon that has a poor threat range that you aren't taking enhancements for just seems like a recipe for disappointment, IMO.

I think going fighter would be better for grabbing all the extra feats for all of the new shield goodies , plus THF , plus your PrE which is roughly the same. sure your going to give up some pally goodies but all in all you will have a much stronger tank IMO.

I don't know alot about paladins, never played one. However, I've played alot on my barbarian and I love cleave. I can't imagine playing a melee without it.
cleave is generally kind gimpy as it reduces your damage output due to an extra long animation. I don't know for 100% what it is like now after U9 update change but i haven't heard anything good.

yet if you have him go stalwart as fighter he will have feats to burn, in that case cleave would be an option.

These are a great defense for a barbarian. I don't know if they are worth while on a pally. Perhaps DA enhancements would be better?
much better on a fighter than a threat range hungry paladin smite machine.


This was for the 20% decrease to physical damage vulnerability, not to qualify for DS1.
fair enough.
still say go fighter to be able to pick up all the new shield toy feats.

Thanks for all the input.

[Iron_Chest]

Thanks t0r012, I appreciate all the input. If it was my character and I only had 28 points to work with I'd probably go fighter or barb but it's not. The final call will be his to make.

cleave is generally kind gimpy as it reduces your damage output due to an extra long animation. I don't know for 100% what it is like now after U9 update change but i haven't heard anything good.

yet if you have him go stalwart as fighter he will have feats to burn, in that case cleave would be an option.

They changed it so it no longer interrupts your attack sequence. If there was a way to fit great cleave I'd do it. It's awesome and well worth it IMO.

[t0r012]

Yeah I feel ya.
Just for giggles I started a planner stalwart to see what could be gotten and I like the idea of a stalwart even more. Both the thf line all the weapon specalizations dwarf axe damages the stalwart str/con stance bonuses even cleave and great cleave for you. All the all. I started all the little +1's and +2 were getting pretty significant plus the intim bonuses from the stance.

[Ungood]

Not 100% certain, but the recent update 9 brought a lot of changes regarding intimidate.

It was U9, before then it was a 5 second perma agro, to the point you could pull mobs off other players mid attack cycle.

Boy that was fun!

[unbongwah]

Dwarf paladins are kinda suboptimal: partly for their CHA penalty (which really hurts a 28-pt build); partly because axes are probably the worst slashing weapons for paladins because of their low crit range - in particular Smite & Sacrifice both benefit from high-crit-range weapons (i.e., falchions & Sword of Shadow). But if this is mostly about having fun with a static group rather than what's optimized for endgame, I think it should be OK.

I'm guessing your friend doesn't have any twink gear or tomes to start with, so here's a slightly different take on the same idea:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.9.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Dwarf Female
(2 Fighter \ 18 Paladin) 
Hit Points: 362
Spell Points: 230 
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 26
Reflex: 13
Will: 13

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    24
Dexterity             8                     8
Constitution         15                    18
Intelligence          8                     8
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma             15                    18

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 12
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 20
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 20
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 20

Level 1 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Handed Fighting


Level 2 (Paladin)


Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 5 (Paladin)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting


Level 7 (Paladin)


Level 8 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery


Level 10 (Paladin)


Level 11 (Paladin)


Level 12 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting


Level 13 (Paladin)


Level 14 (Paladin)


Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Bash


Level 16 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 17 (Paladin)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell (or Cleave or Improved Shield Mastery)


Level 19 (Paladin)


Level 20 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Paladin Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage I
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage II
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good III
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good III
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Righteousness I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice II
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite III
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite IV
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil IV
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys I
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys II
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate I
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate II
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate III
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate IV
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might III

I gave up some INT & CON for +1 CHA: +1 tomes are a lot easier & cheaper to come by for newcomers (on Argon it seems like +2s cost 10x what +1s do on the AH); while a +3 CHA tome for Divine Might III is hard to come by, it's still a much more realistic goal than a +4 tome. I definitely recommend taking Toughness feat + enhs ASAP; esp. on a tank with limited resources, you'll want all the HPs you can get. AC will be questionable with DEX 8 and no CE; but I'm guessing your idea is to go S&B for the dmg mitigation from Shield Mastery, not AC.