When to start epics?

[Sarisa]

If you wish to contribute more via melee, even if your melee isn't too high, debuffers are great.

Use Shattermantle against drow and devils, to lower their obnoxious Spell Resistance (especially drow).

Use Destruction and Improved Destruction to lower a mob's AC. Rahl's Might staves from Mindsunder are probably the best Improved Destruction weapons as they have good damage, decent side effects, and everyone is proficient. Just keep Divine Power and Divine Favour up, along with Prayer (+1 to damage to everyone in the party) and Recitation (+2 to hit for those without luck items).

Use a Cursespewing weapon to lower a mob's saves and damage on high HP targets like Sobrien (Claw).

Dreamspitter or Staff of the Shadow, while far less useful in epics than they used to be, are still nice to swing to occasionally land a level drain.

As for casting, it's not easy to get a reliable enough Necro and Enchantment DC, but you can occasionally kill off a caster or two even with minimal gear and a high wisdom FvS build. You just may need to use an energy drain first. For enchantments, you just need to select your targets. Greater Command does work on giants (Claw), trolls (VoN1), and a few other stupid mobs.

Bauble is very nice to have, I won't deny that. You should be trying to get it.
The Amara's and Tokala's Belt clickies are also almost essential. You should definitely get those. They make healing while swinging a weapon much better.

The Abbot loot crazy mentioned is all nice to have, but in no way essential. None of the "Efficient Metamagic" clickies are essential, nice but not essential. The staff is the best of the items, but don't hold off doing epics for 2-6 months running multiple Abbot 20th completions just for a chance to get it. The Necro and Enchantment DC bonuses can be substituted with other items, only the 'Power Store' ability can't really be replaced. And, you will only need the SP savings on the toughest, most shrine light epics anyway.

Abbot also is more "twitchy" and has much more micromanagement and frustration to heal than almost any of the "easy" epics, and also has a higher PUG failure rate than the "easy" epics. Healing Abbot is good training, but having a full set of equipment from those pathetically bad rates is not something I would expect. I personally am nearing 40 Abbots, and all I have to show for it is a single Vile Blasphemy (which I didn't even pull, I traded a WIS tome I pulled for it in chest), and a +3 STR tome from my 20th since NOTHING useful appeared on my list (no staff, blasphemy, embers, litany).

Eardweller is good to have, but still something that most of the time you won't use too often. It's mainly for stacking Divine Punishment on a low risk boss, one you won't have to heavily heal for and can afford to spend the SP on damage.

SP item, for Greensteel, yes, work on it. I personally value the HP item more on someone without evasion. That means, of course, that you need to complete 20 Shrouds to get a cleansing stone before you can make and use a second item. A first character will need to run 15-20 Shrouds just to get enough larges to make their first tier 3 Greensteel anyway, so you can't expect massively geared people for the easiest epics.

The OP has far more HP than the average PUG "healer", and more than the average PUG rogue, monk, or ranger. He has enough HP to survive rolling a 1 on Malicia (Big Top) or a Kobold Shaman's (VoN1) Disintegrate, which is far more than you can expect with the average PUG member.

And, going by crazy's SP requirements, any Cleric is pretty much excluded. Even counting an RS Cleric's bursts and aura, that won't make up for enough SP to meet his requirements. Also, don't forget that the capstone heal on any Sovereign Host FvS is a significant amount of healing between fights or in tanking situations between Heal scrolls, especially powered up with metamagics. If the average well build 17/3 Clonk can make do with 1500-1600 SP, without resorting to potions, a full FvS with 2300-2400 SP is more than sufficient even without excellent gear.

I personally am more picky about the groups I heal in Amrath than I am in the House P/D/Fens flagging quests. I will often join just any group for P/D/Fens flagging except for Small Problem and Spies in the House, as I know that if one member is sorely underprepared, the group can still succeed without drinking potions. And, that member will be taught what is needed, and will see why. Education is good, elitism is not.

[Anzanel]

Okay as a PM wizard who just hit level 20 (still got lots of raiding for gear to do), what are the requirements for someone like me before I start epic quests? I hear the main concern is just getting DC 40 for my cc's but any other stat requirements? Any particular skills I need to learn?

I'm in the same boat. (I'm assuming that any spell I'll desperately need in a particular epic quest will be mentioned to me when I tell the group I'm new at epics.)

I heard the same thing about bringing up DCs to 40 or above. I probably won't enter any epics until my DCs are at 40+ and my two greensteel items (HP and SP) are completed, but I wonder: if my DCs are 40+, is that enough for a new-ish Wizard to be accepted into epics? (Sort of like how healers can be accepted with poorer gear as long as they can heal well.)

With a DC of, say, 39 or 40: how often will I fail spells? What about above 40? I've heard people say they have DCs of 44, but...is that absolutely necessary?

Also, how different are elite quests from epic quests? Let's say I do Chronoscope on elite in a PUG or something...will the quest be the same on epic except with higher level monsters? I'm assuming they cast more dangerous stuff? Are there different enemies entirely?

Lots of good advice in this thread

[Vallin]

I'm in the same boat. (I'm assuming that any spell I'll desperately need in a particular epic quest will be mentioned to me when I tell the group I'm new at epics.)

I heard the same thing about bringing up DCs to 40 or above. I probably won't enter any epics until my DCs are at 40+ and my two greensteel items (HP and SP) are completed, but I wonder: if my DCs are 40+, is that enough for a new-ish Wizard to be accepted into epics? (Sort of like how healers can be accepted with poorer gear as long as they can heal well.)

With a DC of, say, 39 or 40: how often will I fail spells? What about above 40? I've heard people say they have DCs of 44, but...is that absolutely necessary?

Also, how different are elite quests from epic quests? Let's say I do Chronoscope on elite in a PUG or something...will the quest be the same on epic except with higher level monsters? I'm assuming they cast more dangerous stuff? Are there different enemies entirely?

Lots of good advice in this thread

My advice to a PM wizard who wants to do epics (in form) is to make sure you are comfortable with your own survivability - not all clerics are adept at harming and many FvS dont even carry it. You will greatly improve your own survivability in epics with specific gear including things like:

1. Torc
2. Demon Consort Bracers
3. Abbot robe or Mabar robe
4. Nullification boosting gear (lots of options for this)
5. Shroud Concordant opp item
6. Shroud hp item
7. Yugo favor for con and int pots

I am not saying that all this is MANDATORY - I am just suggesting that your play experience will be dramatically more successful and fun with as much of this gear as possible.

Vallin.

[Burninator]

You said be self sufficent and don't die...... While I managed to do 2 towers while you were dead in one tower twice

we just play the game differently.

You certainly do.

Makes sense why you set the lfm to "be self sufficient and don't die", you needed someone to rescue you .

[Thrudh]

This.

Epics are stupid easy now for the most part. I did epic dragon with only a pair of tier2 khopesh my first couple times.

House P is a joke. House D is also laughable. Even most of House K.

You know... Shroud was kind of hard when we first did it... Then we got GS gear, learned the quests, and it got much easier...

I just started doing epic quests last week... No epic gear yet...

BigTop is a joke (but don't change it until I at least get my first 30 tokens!), but I enjopyed the others...

Snitch, VON1, Bargain of Blood, Tide Turns, Last Stand... Those weren't a joke to me... Not particularly dangerous, but not a cakewalk either... They felt like how quests used to feel when I first started playing this game.

I did an epic wiz-king too... No thank you... That kind of grind I definitely don't need in my life.

Scroll drop rate needs to be looked at, that's for sure, but the epic quests I've done this last week were kind of fun...

[Thrudh]

HOWEVER, if you were to group with 6 ppl geared as poorly as you, you will fail, so in essence you will be heal botting a group of stronger characters that carry you through the quest until you get better gear.

If they are healing, they are not being dragged through the quest...

[Thrudh]

I personally like how the Epic scene as it's structured at the moment. You have a handfull of fairly easy ones that don't need a lot of good gear to get through. A few more a little more gear dependant and a few more that most players will want a solid group to make it as pain free as possible.

Yeah I like the way it's set up as well.

[grodon9999]

When Elite Inspired Quarter becomes an absolute joke, you're ready for epics. Heck, some of the "epics" are even easier than Elite Mindsunder.

Not the greatest benchmark in the world, but a test of game play makes a hell of a lot more sense than just looking at a person's gear.

[KyrzaBladedancer]

To run epics a healer only needs a basic ability to heal and not overheal if lowish sp, note 2300 is not lowish, 1500 is. I once invited a new guildie with a 17clr 2mnk 1rog with something around 1,5sp to come heal epic DA for us, I was on my wizard and promised him he won't use a potion, and he didn't.

Epics are a caster show and test of dps quality. The more you have to heal the more it means the CC or DPS is failing.

Yeah, That was my cleric, 1413 sp and I spend almost 1/3 of that buffing the party and to melee, which I spent a lot of time doing that run. I had an advantage though, I was used to running epics on this low sp character and knew how to deal with any issues that may come up. That however comes with time. Now that I am almost fully geared I and my guild are completely confident in me as a healer (I think), heck they let me solo heal DQ2 more than once! Healing is almost all about player skill and knowing the limits of your character. Just try running an epic or two and if doesn't work out, whats the worst that happens? Unless you do something utterly horribly wrong nothing happens but you gain some insight into what works for you and what doesn't.

[countfitz]

432HP 2372 SP

Basically you are an ungeared fvs that doesnt belong in epics. You have zero raid/shroud items and zero epic items.

You can compensate for this by willingness to use scrolls/Pots.

Some epics are laughably easy. You can be carried through by stronger characters if you choose to sit in the back and heal (and contribute nothing else).

Minimum requirements to group with me: GS HP/SP Item. Tier3 GS weapon for melee. Depending on the class (Monks) i will require TOD rings and other gear.

You are missing SP item, bauble, abbot staff, vile blasphemy, TOD heal belt clickies, eardweller, festival dagger, noxious embers and a bunch of other equipment.

What these do is extend your mana so you can contribute other things Buffs/DPS/CC/Spell dps besides sitting in the back and healing. As I said, you can compensate for lack of raid/shroud items by using scrolls/SP pots.

HOWEVER, if you were to group with 6 ppl geared as poorly as you, you will fail, so in essence you will be heal botting a group of stronger characters that carry you through the quest until you get better gear.

Honestly, if I could make people play my way, I'd have them do all the easy epics to get all the easy to get epic gear and TR a couple times before they ever ran some of the quests needed to get some of these items.

In My Opinion, ToD and Abbot are WAY harder than EDQ2 or Snitch or Ringleader and a few others.


Personal story to show why this is my opinion that I feel like sharing.

I didn't run a shroud until I had two toons capped, had run them both through ToD, VoD, and HoX, done elites, etc. because I kept reading all the forum drama about how people suck in Shroud, failed Shroud runs, and all that blacklisting etc. going on. So nervously, after watching Youtube walkthroughs, getting up the courage, I joined a Shroud, and was like ***? This is the easiest cakewalk ever.

So to the OP, that's how you'll feel running your epics. They aren't epic and are way too easy. If you are here, asking for advice, and listen to it, you are already ready. Simple as that.

Back to advice. The items I would have you get, (but not need, just know it's easy to do): Bauble. Soloing at level 20 (with a hireling) this quest is BORING. It's a joke of an easy quest, and I've never ransacked the chest on any of my capped characters before pulling a Bauble. Twisted Talisman (if you don't have one) is also good for the same purpose. You could easily do with Tier 2 greensteel (planning on tier 3 whenever you can, don't plan on that as your end product) and an eardweller is "easy" to get too, if you have crazy patience to farm it (expect like forty runs...) but the quest(s) you get them in is (are) easy to solo.

[Blank_Zero]

You know... Shroud was kind of hard when we first did it... Then we got GS gear, learned the quests, and it got much easier...

I just started doing epic quests last week... No epic gear yet...

BigTop is a joke (but don't change it until I at least get my first 30 tokens!), but I enjopyed the others...

Snitch, VON1, Bargain of Blood, Tide Turns, Last Stand... Those weren't a joke to me... Not particularly dangerous, but not a cakewalk either... They felt like how quests used to feel when I first started playing this game.

I did an epic wiz-king too... No thank you... That kind of grind I definitely don't need in my life.

Scroll drop rate needs to be looked at, that's for sure, but the epic quests I've done this last week were kind of fun...

My very first epic was bargain of blood, which I ran about 2 days after capping for the very first time. I quickly found out that my 60+ ac meant nothing very quickly and managed to haul ass to the group (halfway in already).

I told them I was new to epics and they told me it was no problem and gave me a quick rundown of the biggest differences between epic and normal quests.

It was a fun run though, so I still do epics today

[Renvar]

I'm at the point in the game where I no longer require many quests. The ones I do require I can often solo or group with a few people that I regularly run with anyway. I'm sure its the same way for you so it really doesnt matter for either of us.

I'm not here to carry anyone through any quests, and I dont expect other people to carry me. If you want to carry a freshly capped lvl 20 that's your choice and I respect that, but that is not the way I play. I have nothing personal against you, we just play the game differently.

As for wiz king, I honestly dont remember grouping with you, and I may well have died. However, people that have lvled with me know that I rarely die and can zerg with the best.

Crazy,

I remember running an Evon with you and you were expounding on voice chat about how your first toon was a Bard, specifically because no one expects a bard to do more than play songs every 5 minutes. You could pike your way to loot and success.

Now here you are dissuading a new cleric from getting started in epics because he would only perform one role, even if he did that role very well. He would, in effect, be stealing from the the other party members and should be ashamed of his blatant piking. I think you could be a bit more forgiving of the player's lack of gear or ability to perform all class functions at the highest level.

Half the gear you mention is minor. Vile Blasphemy? What's that yield? 10 ticks of 2d6? 60 sp average? Staff of the Petitioner? Again. What's the net yield on that? 40 abbott runs to get two items that give you less SP than a greater mana pot? (Not even a major). A bauble is nice, but really it's just a major mana pot. And these are required gear? When they can be replaced by 15kpp of consumables?

Farming an eardweller? Seriously? For what? My FvS doesn't have an eardweller and properly specced with a potency item, enhancements and feats her heals land for around 500hp non-crit with no healing amp. cure mass light/mod/serious land for around 150/170/200 each. Scrolled cure masses land for around 90ish. If you are taking more damage than I can heal on cool downs with that, then the problem isn't my lack of an eardweller.

The ToD ardor belt is the only item on your list that I'll agree makes sense, mainly because it's so easy to get. If you run ToD once or twice you will get one. Half the part 2 chest belts/necklaces go unclaimed.

As others have mentioned, a far bigger crime than not having any of the above gear is to get into an epic and not have a stack of heal scrolls and a stack of mana pots. And if you are poor and/or don't like to use consumables in PuG's then let everyone know your limits at the beginning. All of my melees have 1-5 mana pots on them and 30-50 heal scrolls to hand out in emergencies or to help the healer with consumables expense.

[stille_nacht]

432HP 2372 SP

Basically you are an ungeared fvs that doesnt belong in epics. You have zero raid/shroud items and zero epic items.

You can compensate for this by willingness to use scrolls/Pots.

Some epics are laughably easy. You can be carried through by stronger characters if you choose to sit in the back and heal (and contribute nothing else).

Minimum requirements to group with me: GS HP/SP Item. Tier3 GS weapon for melee. Depending on the class (Monks) i will require TOD rings and other gear.

You are missing SP item, bauble, abbot staff, vile blasphemy, TOD heal belt clickies, eardweller, festival dagger, noxious embers and a bunch of other equipment.

What these do is extend your mana so you can contribute other things Buffs/DPS/CC/Spell dps besides sitting in the back and healing. As I said, you can compensate for lack of raid/shroud items by using scrolls/SP pots.

HOWEVER, if you were to group with 6 ppl geared as poorly as you, you will fail, so in essence you will be heal botting a group of stronger characters that carry you through the quest until you get better gear.

wow what bad advise. You dont need all that stuff to do epics, the only things that are significant there really are belt and bauble, but plenty of healers work just fine without them... also, belt is easy to get, just run ToD and ask for it, someone will pass in 1 or 2 runs

healers dont require nearly as much gear, its mainly just A: can you stay alive (yes, you have the hps) and B: can you ctrl your character/heal.

anyway, youll be fine in most epics, they usually arent as healing intensive as hard or elite raids, simply because every epic party has a CC wizard anyway...

[SynnMG]

PM me your name so I can not group with you ever.

After only reading the first page, I don't think your advice is the best since it requires an item that is no longer available.
And on a personal note, you are a really picky person is why I never join your groups.

/on topic

Don't let your first Epic be "Last Stand" in the Red Fens, with a bad group that quest is H-E-Double Hockey Sticks.

[jydog100]

When Elite Inspired Quarter becomes an absolute joke, you're ready for epics. Heck, some of the "epics" are even easier than Elite Mindsunder.

Not the greatest benchmark in the world, but a test of game play makes a hell of a lot more sense than just looking at a person's gear.

no doubt. some of the best geared toons in the game actually suck at playing the game.

[CoasterHops]

My personal opinion is that if any toon can go into an epic "undergeared" then it is a healer, be it a fvs or a cleric.

Good healing is all about efficiency, timing of heals and keeping an eye on the party. Also it's about the rest of the party making themselves available for heals.

As mentioned in several previous posts, a healer can get away with alot as long as they can heal well. The main thing is to ensure you have the necessary consumables to carry yourself through the quests. Theres not much worse than a healer running out of sp and not being able to replenish or help the team through via other means (good scroll healing, bursts, auras etc.) right when u need it most.

Having a decent amount of HP also is handy.

A motto I used to run with on my healer is "as a healer I should always be the last to die" hehe, it didn't always happen, but just remember it's better to preserve ones life before others if one is the healer haha......

[DDOisFree]

Can I just come in here to say 'LAUGH OUT LOUD' at Crazydamage's posts / ridiculous advice?

I never join his groups, and am actually begining to refuse to play with people who he constantly groups with (one of them being a cleric who joined my group once, and I recieved requests from 4 other people to kick her because they have had her grief in their groups before by either not healing or recalling and leaving at the sightest bit of bother).

Also, most people Crazydamage plays with dont even meet the requirements that he requires people to have to join his groups.

FYI I've never ran ToD or Abbot, and dont ever plan to because I want to completely avoid such elitist players in this game. Yet I have no problem in any of the epic raids.

[cheever77]

.
I have nothing personal against you, we just play the game differently.

.

Well you say this crazy but in the last post you wanted my toons names so you and I quote,

"PM me your toons names so I never have to group with you ever".

Not personal.....???? Maybe not in the true sense of the word......