Khopesh or Rapier: Which is better for an Assassin Rogue

[Ookami007]

khopesh has a lower 2hit than Rapier when TWF if you care about that.

This is false.

Wielding 2 khopeshes has exactly the same to hit chances as wielding 2 rapiers... -4 to hit, unless you have OTWF... in which case it's -2.

Both can be used with STR builds and since you can get your STR MUCH higher than DEX, you will generally hit harder and more often with STR build.

[DaSawks]

Here is the math on Khopesh vs Rapier.

2141+23/768-2341= Khopesh wins.

Got it?

[krud]

When I switched my human str rogue mutt from rapiers to khopeshes I did quite a few calculations to see just how much better it was. Against sneak attack vulnerable mobs the difference was only 3-5% advantage to the khopesh. In non sneak attack situations it was 8-10% advantage to the khopesh. The elf enhancements bring those numbers down by ~2-3%. The rapier pulls ahead for elf/drow if you miss on anything less than ~6 with khopesh.

If you stick to running raids and are primarily concerned with boss dps, then the khopesh is a slightly better choice. For general questing and random mobs there really isn't that much difference between the two. You can't go wrong with either. If I were to redo my rogue mutt, I would just stick with scimitars/kukris, as I had originally rolled him long ago. If he were a pure rogue, I'd stick with rapiers. For elf/drow i'd most certainly save the feat and stick with rapiers.

Another consideration is feat choices:
PA
toughness
twf
itwf
gtwf
IC: pierce or slash
??? 1 more feat (2 for human)

Khopesh?
Quickdraw?

QD can almost make up the difference you gain by going khopesh. You probably don't get enough boosts to make QD that much better in normal questing, but in boss fights it can make a difference.

[Elaril]

How is the past life feat any more beneficial to rapiers than to khopeshes? It provides a bonus to SA to-hit and to-damage. I wasn't aware that there was any connection to weapon types.

It's a selectable feat. If you have room for it and Khopesh, ok. Most don't on dps rogue builds. So it benefits rapiers more because users don't select Khopesh as a feat.

[grodon9999]

How is the past life feat any more beneficial to rapiers than to khopeshes? It provides a bonus to SA to-hit and to-damage. I wasn't aware that there was any connection to weapon types.

it's not, it's just that it's easier to fit in on a rapier user.

[Healemup]

I left off SA because its not modified by crits, the numbers don't really mater its the comparison that's important.

If your a rogue that wants to maximize DPS and get sneak attack as often as possible, then you would make radiance rapiers and increase the SA opportunity.

10% more of upwards of 9d6 +20 > x3 higher die vs x2 lower die.

[Healemup]

... when you are in a contest where each participant is only allowed to solo their mob...

umm... no.

If you are duoing or more on mobs, but can get feedback on who did the most damage to the mob would be a better situation when discussing DPS as a rogue. Each soloing (unless you have your radiance weapons a blazing) a rogue is going to lose out quickly. Pit 6 toons on the same mob and the rogue have -uber threat and you will see a HUGE swing in DPS output.

[brzytki]

How is the past life feat any more beneficial to rapiers than to khopeshes? It provides a bonus to SA to-hit and to-damage. I wasn't aware that there was any connection to weapon types.

It's not about for which weapon type it's more beneficial cause it clearly doesn't matter what u are using. It's about comparison in DPS between rapier+SoS to khopesh. Pure assassins have only 1 feat slot left (unless human): khopesh, quickdraw, otwf, SoS, maybe SF:UMD - making it hard to take both khopesh and SoS.

EDIT: Bah, some folks beat me to it. I have to remember to refresh a site next time

[Therigar]

quickdraw

I've been seeing this in the list of feats a lot lately. What has changed with quickdraw that makes people think it is worth taking?

Maybe it is just me, but I seldom switch weapons in the midst of a fight. I grasp that there might be some advantage to changing weapons in some situations but I've never found mobs to be so tough that such tactics were needed.

It seems to me that for most players this will be a wasted feat.

Similarly, OTWF seems unnecessary for most builds (reasons mentioned elsewhere).

That leaves the feat list looking like this: TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Toughness, IC:slash, EW:khopesh, SoS.

Mind you, I'm not necessarily advocating khopesh for reasons cited elsewhere in the thread. Just pointing out that 2 of the feats that seem to be getting a lot of attention are not really all that critical.

[brzytki]

I've been seeing this in the list of feats a lot lately. What has changed with quickdraw that makes people think it is worth taking?

Maybe it is just me, but I seldom switch weapons in the midst of a fight. I grasp that there might be some advantage to changing weapons in some situations but I've never found mobs to be so tough that such tactics were needed.

It seems to me that for most players this will be a wasted feat.

Similarly, OTWF seems unnecessary for most builds (reasons mentioned elsewhere).

I just listed possible most popular options for a pure rogue (actually i forgot to add weapon finesse for dex builds but w/e). I'm not saying that all of them are equally important.

Quickdraw, apart from firing throwing weapons faster, switching weapons/armor faster, halves delay of using action boosts. With the endgame concentrating on beating down one boss for 3-5 min, quickdraw can add around half as much DPS as khopesh prof gives over rapiers.

While OTWF is a waste for a vast majority of geared rogues, a new one w/o a gear can benefit much when they take it.

That leaves the feat list looking like this: TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Toughness, IC:slash, EW:khopesh, SoS.

You forgot about PA.

Mind you, I'm not necessarily advocating khopesh for reasons cited elsewhere in the thread. Just pointing out that 2 of the feats that seem to be getting a lot of attention are not really all that critical.

As i stated before, I'd say critical feats are TWF chain, toughness, PA, IC. That leaves one spot for w/e u feel like u need: khopesh, quickdraw, SoS, SF:UMD, weapon finesse, otwf.

[Kinerd]

Are we talking about first life only characters here? If not, it seems a bit odd that no one mentioned the rogue SoS pastlife feat as a dps compliment to rapier. If so, I'll go back to drinking coffee.

I mentioned it.

[Therigar]

Never thought the delay on action boosts as really enough to matter but I don't rely on them as much as other players. It would be the best reason for the feat if I did.

PA. Yeah, a lot of people believe that is compulsory.

Thx for the explanation.

[HunkyDane]

Gonna TR my Rogue12/fighter8 myself soon, and been thinking about what GS to make before I TR. It was feats that made my decisision to go Rapier.

1-Toughness, 2WF
3-PL:Rogue
6-OTWF
9-I2WF
12-IC:Piercing
15-GTWF
18-SF:UMD

I find it very hard to remove any of the above mentioned feats.

[Kmnh]

The absolute highest dps twf assassin you can build includes a pair of litII khopeshes. It also includes epic items from sands of menechtarun and the abishai set, so it will take a while to get there.

If you make greensteel rapiers, they will be "good enough". You can complete any quest or raid in the game with them. In fact, you don't need any raid gear for that. It still doesn't feel right to suggest that a new player should spend 24 large ingredients on a weapon that's not part of his best gear.


If you are shooting for max dps, build your rogue around khopeshes and take the feats and gear to support that. Once you have perfect gear, you can swap the khopesh feat out and laugh at the -4 to-hit penalty.

[Therigar]

The absolute highest dps twf assassin you can build includes a pair of litII khopeshes. It also includes epic items from sands of menechtarun and the abishai set, so it will take a while to get there.

If you make greensteel rapiers, they will be "good enough". You can complete any quest or raid in the game with them. In fact, you don't need any raid gear for that. It still doesn't feel right to suggest that a new player should spend 24 large ingredients on a weapon that's not part of his best gear.


If you are shooting for max dps, build your rogue around khopeshes and take the feats and gear to support that. Once you have perfect gear, you can swap the khopesh feat out and laugh at the -4 to-hit penalty.

I'm easily confused.

Aren't LitII greensteel weapons? If not, where did you find them? So what's not right to suggest that a new player should spend ingredients to craft them? Regardless of what anyone thinks the best weapon is (Lit II, Radiance, etc.) almost all of us are going to advise a new player that they eventually want 1 or more of them.

Then this one confused me even more. What are you swapping the khopesh feat out for and how did that eliminate a -4 to hit penalty? Are you one of those that thinks rapiers are light weapons so only give -2 to hit? Or are you suggesting that a player swap khopesh for OTWF? Because the way it is worded it makes it sound as if you think the to hit penalty disappears entirely -- which, of course, isn't true no matter what you do (assuming you are a rogue and not a ranger ).

I mean, help me out here. What is it you think you are saying?

[Kmnh]

ok, I will try again.

Don't make litII rapiers. It is a waste of large ingredients.

Make the litII khopeshes and take the khopesh feat. Once you have good gear* you can swap the khopesh feat out for something more useful



* good gear would be something like Kensei + assassin tod rings, Tharne's Goggles or epic bracers of the hunter, vulkoorim fighting leathers, abishai set. That adds up to +14 or 15 to-hit.

[Therigar]

OK, I see, you're saying that the non-proficiency penalty is nothing because of all the other gear, so don't even bother with the khopesh feat.

That makes sense.

Thanks.

[brzytki]

Can't really see Kensai and Assassin sets in, as u claimed, "absolute highest dps build". All they do is to give u more to-hit to overcome -4 penalty from not having khopesh proficiency. Ravager set gives a lot more damage, or FB/shintao .

But bear in mind that the total to-hit penalty will be huge: -4 for lack of proficiency, -4 for one-handed weapon, -5 for PA (max -8 if horc w/ maxed enhancement line). It would basically mean that u need some other sources of to-hit boosts too, like a bard or monk spamming Moment of Clarity.

So, imo, that max dps build can't afford losing khopesh proficiency.

[krud]

Quickdraw,... halves delay of using action boosts. With the endgame concentrating on beating down one boss for 3-5 min, quickdraw can add around half as much DPS as khopesh prof gives over rapiers.

Using Absolute-Omniscience's dps calculator, I compared Khopesh vs rapier w/ and w/out quickdraw using his twf halfling 20rogue example. It's an older spreadsheet, using Min2s, but adding newer fluff really won't change the general outcome. I simplified the 50%,100% scenarios by removing the elemental resists. It doesn't alter the weapon comparison by much.

Rapier vs
no fort: 570
50% fort: 397
100% fort: 223

Rapier w/quickdraw vs
no fort: 580
50% fort: 403
100% fort: 227

Khopesh vs
no fort: 587
50% fort: 406
100% fort: 225

Khopesh w/quickdraw vs
no fort: 597
50% fort: 413
100% fort: 229

Big whoop-de-do! Even without quickdraw on the rapier, the khopesh isn't all that far ahead. Now, if your toon doesn't have all the bling that A-O puts in his calcs, then that 17pts of dps might seem like a bigger difference. btw - I'm curious what feat he gave up to get that halfling rogue to have both khopesh and quickdraw (toughness, IC )

[Therigar]

Well, there are other issues at work as well -- that you're only getting that "max DPS" at L20.

For some players that is the be all and end all and so I can't fault those who make observations about epic gear.


But, it really doesn't do much good for people at the other 19 levels.

Kensai ring is +2 to hit so seems a decent choice. Assassin ring is +2 to attacks that count as SA and AFAIK doesn't stack so could be a waste. Of course, this assumes a full set.

Taking damage means relying on other sources to increase your to hit. There is a point where that is the poorer choice. If you're relying on 1 minute spams or other attack boosts you might have reached that point.

Factors like penalties for PA and large weapons are already figured into the discussion so we only need to consider new sources of to hit reductions. Taking a -4 for non-proficiency is fully balanced by +4 from epic Vulkoorim leaving you exactly where you were before you got the epic gear. If you were hitting then -- well you'll hit by putting on the leathers and dropping the khopesh feat.

Epic bracers and Tharnes are both SA bonuses so situational. I've observed elsewhere that if your attacks don't count as SA you're playing your rogue wrong. So fair to include them (note that either balances out the oversize penalty).

Epic Abishai gives profane STR helping both to hit and to damage.

Assuming you fit it all in and get the right stacking results there should be no issue hitting regardless of what ring set you use. Although, personally, I think the Assassin set is suspect for reasons cited.