Fire Vs New Earth III & IV

[edgarallanpoe]

Sorry if this has already been discussed but I have been playing with this new Earth III on a Horc Monk and was wondering if anyone had done the math on the DPS between the two. I have a 16th level Horc Shintao II with a Bloodstone and with the following wraps...

1. +3 Holy Burst of Stunning +6
2. +2 Fireburst of Stunning +10
3. +2 Icyburst of Stunning +10

...among my disruptors, smiters, and banes.

Here is what I have noticed so far...

In Fire III I can turn on Horc PA I, and hit with great frequency, even on bosses. Ki regen is really nice (Crane III as well as Fire) and I am able to spam just about every light attack I can throw at them (Shin II) and still have Ki to burn.

In Earth III I see a massive DPS boost and I still hit everything with Horc PA I, but will miss periodically against bosses. The boss at the end of the new Warehouse quest in the Harbor gives me fits with PA on. That being said, other than bosses, my numbers are huge. Ki regen is suffering though. I can still throw Ki strikes but not with abandon like I can in Fire.

I still think that Wind is the DPS king. I have a 20th level Wind Monk and he hits about 3000 times a second. LOL!! But the question is between Fire III&IV and Earth 3&4. Any of you number crunchers done the math for this yet? I know it is hard to figure out your ultimate DPS with Ki strikes included, but what about just raw DPS?

Water can really use some love when the Devs get a chance. I know that there are a boatload of things to do before getting to a monk stance but it will be interesting to see what they can do to make Water viable. As it stands now, I can't imagine anyone using it....but lord knows I have been wrong before. LOL!!!

[Habreno]

Water is used in about 3-4 scenarios:

1) Stunning Fist in high-level content, where the extra 1-2 DC matters.

2) Clonks. The extra 2 WIS means a lot.

3) Saves, especially in traps.


That's it.

[destiny4405]

mountain III and IV are best dps stances for me. never leave them except when solo and run out of haste clickies.

[Marnin_Wood]

I've got my cap 20 pure monk rocking both the grandmaster Fire & Earth stances... I love 'em each, and use them situationally, but my run-around stance in quest is Earth.

Light monk with Rise o' Pheonix, and Void IV... its a very AP specific, 34pt build with +2 tomes across the board. Can't wait to TR her again soon and do it all again with 36pts to blow!!

I've been told Epic Malificent is the highest AC in the game... with PA off, and in GM Fire stance, I was able to hit her roughly 65-75% of the time while the rest of my party surrounded her with the battle cries of 'Dude, I can't even touch her!!'.

[Missing_Minds]

Were it not for the handwrap situation, I'd agree about Earth beating Wind, but in the current state, Wind still beats Earth.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

Random Generated and Named Handwraps are working fine for my monks. Before Hot-Fix had to swap out/in attack +x gear (like any piece of Sora-Katra set, or Shimmering Arrowhead etc)

Don't have to do that now and enhancement bonus is applying again.

Don't have any crafted handwraps besides some +2 Cursespewing of Destruction I made for Ss and Gs.

Xhiron my TRd capped Shintao 3, Void 4 Dex/Wis Build Monk with power attack and wind 4 stance, hit Epic Malicia with similar results...earth 3 stance was a dps loss in this scenario till I turned PA off. Don't use Crane. Rarely goto Fire 3 Stance.

Always have plenty of ki (with Oremi's Neck) whether in Earth 3 or Wind 4 and I spam the H outta Light/Earth/Void/Lightening attacks.

Versus bosses like Harry, Suulu or Horoth while hasted (pretty much always hasted in this content) I prefer earth 3 stance and have seen that largest numbers (in the quickly scrolling Wall-O-Damage) while in this stance. The Scrolling Wall of Damage goes by just as fast.

For reference only...

Main hand is 2d14 +6 Epic Mabar Wraps +6 Strength +5 PA

In Earth 3 Largest Crit I've seen was either a Fist of Iron or Strike of Enduring that hit Harry for 298 main hand. I typical see numbers in 2 other ranges, 130 to 150 and 190 to 210 for main hand crits. Wind stance numbers are smaller. Frequency of attacks scrolling by appears the same whether in hasted Earth 3, or in Wind 4 (Hasted or Non-Hasted.

Not crunching any vaccuum math

[Marnin_Wood]

Random Generated and Named Handwraps are working fine for my monks. Before Hot-Fix had to swap out/in attack +x gear (like any piece of Sora-Katra set, or Shimmering Arrowhead etc)

Same here, I don't have any crafted wraps, but all my others are back to normal.

[Kinerd]

If you're still hitting, Earth stance is comparable to Wind stance, and both are a dramatic base DPS increase over Fire.

If you are Hasted, have Improved Critical, and have GTWF, you are generating at least 10.5 ki per 3 seconds of continuous combat in Earth stance. That's enough for two tier IV elemental strikes. If you only have two (or only have two useful ones for a given target), the DPS contributions of other tiers are significantly lower. In terms of ki DPS, the additional ki from Fire stance is pretty useless for a light monk.

Now, light monks have a lot more to do with their ki besides raw DPS, obviously. How much worth you assign to stunning, healing, buffing, whatever is something that can't be solved neatly. I would just leave you with this: in Earth stance, a tier IV elemental strike is worth 1.8 processes * 21 damage / 3 seconds cooldown = 12.6 DPS (less for Earth strikes).

[t0r012]

Water is used in about 3-4 scenarios:

1) Stunning Fist in high-level content, where the extra 1-2 DC matters.

2) Clonks. The extra 2 WIS means a lot.

3) Saves, especially in traps.


That's it.

#3
traps are reflex saves , so wind gets you just as much save bonus as water.

[REALb0r3d]

#3
traps are reflex saves , so wind gets you just as much save bonus as water.

Math says water IV gets +5 to saves, and wind IV gives +4 dex=+2 reflex save. Not as much save bonus.

But I'm very interested in this topic seeing as I'm trying to make a stalwart defender/dark monk tank flavor build, and as you probably know by me saying that I need all the DPS I can get and kinda settled on sun. Though the +2 per swing I'd get from the bonus to STR in sunwould be offset by the monk past life and taken over by Jidz Tetka by +2 in earth... being a dark monk split I'd be limited by the ki I generate and making sure ToD is used every time its off timer.

[DragonTroy]

#3
traps are reflex saves , so wind gets you just as much save bonus as water.

water stance give a large boost to saves, including reflex(i think more the higher the tier is) more than the +1 or 2 from wind stance

edit: just looked at it, i get a +4 to all saves from tier 3 water stance

[ImFour20]

#3
traps are reflex saves , so wind gets you just as much save bonus as water.

math is hard

[edgarallanpoe]

Honestly, Monk saves are so good as it is that the save bonus to Water is moot.

[solacerodgers]

My 2xtr light monk was a dex/wis voidVI build but i just did a greater on him ( had that heart laying around he was already 34pt build with +3 tomes all around ) and switched to a con/wis build because of this stance. I lost some ac which as we all know dosnt mean squat unless your into the high 90-100s as all i run are mainly epics now. With the tr and jidz combo the dmg output is crazy 2d14 without mods, add in fists of iron + wraps + stuns + strikes + twink gear and clickys and my base 16str monk is putting out 350+ crits and 60+ a swing. I have to switch between my neck's jors collar for speed and oreims for ki regen sometimes but I love the new stance. 290% healing amp/ 670hp raid buffed, still a 77 ac ( + smoke cloak keeps most trash off ) He has tanked almost everthing in game including Echrono and E into the deep pit with ease. The to hit issuse does come up but with the re-spec I realized I had a 70 + jump and tumble and dint need them there for end game with my tod clickies ect so I dumped into UMD. I never thought much of it before but just keeping GH scrolls on for the + to hit makes up for the lower dex and weapon finess. Love the new stance can not say enough good about it as dex was great for the first year i played him but i was tired of being a supporting role monk and not being able to deal the dmg of fire/dark monks now i stand on top of the kill count and out tank tons of barbs I know. Oh P.S to the monks a great set of tanking wraps is just simple insite +20% then use your ki strikes to hold onto bosses when the GS TWF or fully raged 100+str barbs come in.

All in all its a game have fun try builds and please oh please ddo fix my **** handwraps!!!!!!!!!

[Malky]

In Earth 3 Largest Crit I've seen was either a Fist of Iron or Strike of Enduring that hit Harry for 298 main hand.

Earth finisher is just more sexy, over 500 per hand with bard buffs on a helpless mob (in combat log SA damage is mixed with raw damage). Doesn't happen often but still...

[Aerendil]

Highest hit I've ever seen on my Monk was on a held mob, with a natural 20 "smite tainted" hit. Didn't take a screenie, but think it was in the high 400s / low 500s if memory serves.
Earth-earth-earth finisher came in pretty close behind that, though.

Earth 3/4 is definitely nice and has given a huge dps boost. If you don't need the extra ki or to-hit from Fire, I'd stick with Earth. Not to mention the extra +40 hp or so (+60 if comparing to Wind stance with -2 Con) is always nice.

For soloing, Wind is still my #1 preference unless you have a Bard or arcane hireling to keep you perma-hasted, in which case Earth or Fire may be better.


PS - regarding Water stance, I agree - outside of epics where you might want the extra +1-2 DC boost, it's mostly useless. Your saves are generally high enough anyways, so no need to boost that.
I suggested to Eladrin some time ago some possible revisions for the Water stance, including changing the +saves boost to a +saves *and* AC, as water is generally associated with evasiveness in a lot of fantasy genres. This bonus would essentially replace the bonus to tumbling, which we all know is rubbish and unused. (Water IV would be +5 AC (dodge or untyped perhaps) and saves, for example)

Another option is to allow fort bypassing in this stance, as water tends to find the cracks in any armour, granting a + 5% fortification bypass per tier. This would stack with other buffs, such as the AoV fort debuffs, dark side's touch of despair.

/shrug

[solacerodgers]

Highest hit I've ever seen on my Monk was on a held mob, with a natural 20 "smite tainted" hit. Didn't take a screenie, but think it was in the high 400s / low 500s if memory serves.
Earth-earth-earth finisher came in pretty close behind that, though.

Earth 3/4 is definitely nice and has given a huge dps boost. If you don't need the extra ki or to-hit from Fire, I'd stick with Earth. Not to mention the extra +40 hp or so (+60 if comparing to Wind stance with -2 Con) is always nice.

For soloing, Wind is still my #1 preference unless you have a Bard or arcane hireling to keep you perma-hasted, in which case Earth or Fire may be better.


PS - regarding Water stance, I agree - outside of epics where you might want the extra +1-2 DC boost, it's mostly useless. Your saves are generally high enough anyways, so no need to boost that.
I suggested to Eladrin some time ago some possible revisions for the Water stance, including changing the +saves boost to a +saves *and* AC, as water is generally associated with evasiveness in a lot of fantasy genres. This bonus would essentially replace the bonus to tumbling, which we all know is rubbish and unused. (Water IV would be +5 AC (dodge or untyped perhaps) and saves, for example)

Another option is to allow fort bypassing in this stance, as water tends to find the cracks in any armour, granting a + 5% fortification bypass per tier. This would stack with other buffs, such as the AoV fort debuffs, dark side's touch of despair.

/shrug

Yes water and wind both need ned combos with jidz as well there useless as the vorp water strike is **** and jump is easily attained. UMS now gives me natural armor bonus, extra dmg, extra hp, with jidz 1 extra die of dmg, up to 16 extra pts of dmg with strikes VI and acid dmg!!! I wear jorgs collar 99% of the time to make up for the slower attacks and switched to crane for ki or flop over to oremis or sun for a few seconds then right back.

Water is about redirection and should either give you perma dusk with a dodge bonus and jidz should add to the dc of your SF or other strikes for example.

[Hecore]

I use Earth most of the time, and Wind only when I'm not getting haste (soloing/beating on the dummy/group with inattentive arcane/TOD when haste runs out). I've even switched out of the Kensai set to the Oremi's set to make up for the Ki loss; the difference is that good.

[solacerodgers]

^^^ I took crane I,II for the ki and usually stay in UMS 100% of the time as well if ki gets low oreims is a life saver as well as popping fire/sun stance for a few seconds with oreims on i can get what i need in a few seconds and jump back.