Some sort of community control...

[TheDearLeader]

So what happens when someone is so fundamentally different from the core of forum users that 19 of the 20 new threads they start, per day, causes negative rep/warnings/infractions/locks/deletes/other moderator actions?

We're talking about the Rep system, and community control. We put words out there like inflammatory, flamebait, "trolling", disruptive. You mention earlier in this thread, Tolero, "voting someone off the island".

We are a community. A community often has common views, and common goals, especially when as small as this tends to be. We're all computer gamers, many are past PnP players, and much of the forum is legal to drink, marry, have a home mortgage, and I'd say for about 65% of the forumbase, are above the age requirement to run for US President. (That's 35, in case I lost someone)

What's my point here? We're adults. And as adults, if a majority decides that an individual is that fundamentally different, we should have means of ostracizing them.

Allow the community options related to the community they contribute to. You've already started this - people with less than 1500 rep cannot neg rep. We know this.

Here's some other ones:
New Users must have a minimum of 500 posts before starting more than 1 topic per day. (they can now start 3 or something)
From there, they must have 2000 posts, and X (X being a value of something like Rep, a Community-based approval), to start a maximum of 10 topics per day.

Is 10 topics per day so limited for 99% of our userbase? I could post one new guide, one marketplace trade, three suggestions, and still have five other random threads to pop out there. Daily.

Mods, of course, are able to post to their heart's content, since announcements, release notes, and the like tend to all come in waves, where large number of topics are started at a time.

Conversely, if there is someone who manages, as a baby poster, to cause more strife and lack of constructive conversation in that 1 Topic Started per day? The community can self-regulate said individual out, just like lancing a boil.

Too many people unhappy with this individual? (50+ people hit the "Bad boy" button, whatever it may be, on a SINGLE post?) - Posting privileges gone for a day, week, then month, then indefinitely.

That simple. None of this bouncing in and out of moderated status junk.

[Memnir]

RIP Young Hot Whitney

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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

[Pallol_One-Eye]

So what happens when someone is so fundamentally different from the core of forum users that 19 of the 20 new threads they start, per day, causes negative rep/warnings/infractions/locks/deletes/other moderator actions?

We're talking about the Rep system, and community control. We put words out there like inflammatory, flamebait, "trolling", disruptive. You mention earlier in this thread, Tolero, "voting someone off the island".

We are a community. A community often has common views, and common goals, especially when as small as this tends to be. We're all computer gamers, many are past PnP players, and much of the forum is legal to drink, marry, have a home mortgage, and I'd say for about 65% of the forumbase, are above the age requirement to run for US President. (That's 35, in case I lost someone)

What's my point here? We're adults. And as adults, if a majority decides that an individual is that fundamentally different, we should have means of ostracizing them.

Allow the community options related to the community they contribute to. You've already started this - people with less than 1500 rep cannot neg rep. We know this.

Here's some other ones:
New Users must have a minimum of 500 posts before starting more than 1 topic per day. (they can now start 3 or something)
From there, they must have 2000 posts, and X (X being a value of something like Rep, a Community-based approval), to start a maximum of 10 topics per day.

Is 10 topics per day so limited for 99% of our userbase? I could post one new guide, one marketplace trade, three suggestions, and still have five other random threads to pop out there. Daily.

Mods, of course, are able to post to their heart's content, since announcements, release notes, and the like tend to all come in waves, where large number of topics are started at a time.

Conversely, if there is someone who manages, as a baby poster, to cause more strife and lack of constructive conversation in that 1 Topic Started per day? The community can self-regulate said individual out, just like lancing a boil.

Too many people unhappy with this individual? (50+ people hit the "Bad boy" button, whatever it may be, on a SINGLE post?) - Posting privileges gone for a day, week, then month, then indefinitely.

That simple. None of this bouncing in and out of moderated status junk.

/agree

Something I could get behind, would be fairly easy to implement and should be, in theory, fairly effective.

+1 for you sometime tomorrow perhaps

[rest]

Actually the temporary infraction points are all they have. However, they apparently "can do nothing" about anything was was done prior to the great forum purge of 2007 or the mini-forum purge of 2008. All those infraction points never expire.

Well now there is a new rule that if you have 10 infractions, EVEN IF THEY HAVE LONG SINCE EXPIRED, you will be permabanned. Period.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Except that in the end, it will still be in the hands of those who own/run the board. They can, at any time, revoke your rights of censorship. They can, at any time, be petitioned to review individual cases to determine whether or not the community has accurately enforced the spirit of their (the owners') intentions, and if they feel the community has NOT done so, reverse the community's judgment. And since, in the end, they are ultimately responsible for any and all content that is allowed on their forums (be it through their own employees or the proxy of community-based filtering), they have every right to sit in arbitration over said community's policing of the system.

We, the community, only make (and only ever WILL make) 'suggestion' on how we, the community, shall be run. The folks who run the board make the actual decisions, even if they give us illusory powers with which to govern ourselves. Any system implemented on this board will still be subject to overseeing by the folks who implemented it -- namely Turbine.

Free speech is not free speech when there are any limitations placed upon it. There will ALWAYS be limitations on the forums. We agree to them every single time we post (even though the agreement generally reads like a legal document, and most of us dont actually READ it because of that). Every time we click SUBMIT we agree to the terms, even if they changed since the last time we clicked SUBMIT. And part of that is agreeing to limitations, therefor no free speech, regardless of any proposed adjustments to the monitoring system.

I'm not actually asking for free speech on the forums.
I do think it should be moderated. And moderated often.

I just do not like a situation that can allow a large number of people to force another person to "shut up" just because they disagree with him.

For instance, the neg rep I get, is usually because I am so vocal against elititst or anti-noob posts comments.
While I do tend to get a lot more pos rep than neg, many of the neg reppers are vets who's rep carries more weight... and they have friends.

it would be easy for forum vets to band together and shutdown any new player who posts comments that they disagree with.

Woe be it to the new guy who comes to a forum, where vets have all of the power to squlech them into silence.....

...and dare to brag about his 6 Con Elf.

[Thrudh]

Well now there is a new rule that if you have 10 infractions, EVEN IF THEY HAVE LONG SINCE EXPIRED, you will be permabanned. Period.

Is this true?

10 infraction points, even if 8 of them expired 3 years ago, and you're perma-banned?

Where is this stated so people can see it?

[Lerincho]

Is this true?

10 infraction points, even if 8 of them expired 3 years ago, and you're perma-banned?

Where is this stated so people can see it?

it is not true.

[Lerincho]

Well now there is a new rule that if you have 10 infractions, EVEN IF THEY HAVE LONG SINCE EXPIRED, you will be permabanned. Period.

You are very misinformed. Can PM me if you would like details more clear; however, due to forum guidelines can not be mentioned here.

[Memnir]

Actually the temporary infraction points are all they have. However, they apparently "can do nothing" about anything was was done prior to the great forum purge of 2007 or the mini-forum purge of 2008. All those infraction points never expire.

Sadly untrue.
Ten total infractions, expired or not, will result in a permaban.






LINK

[rest]

You are very misinformed. Can PM me if you would like details more clear; however, due to forum guidelines can not be mentioned here.

Mem beat me to it. See below.

Sadly untrue.
Ten total infractions, expired or not, will result in a permaban.






[LINK[/b]

**** Mem. You are a quintuple black belt in forum-fu. You had already created the picture with the arrow, composed a post and posted it before I could even find the guidelines. I bow to my sensei.

[varusso]

snip

You talked bad about my cat. I hate you. I am now going to log into the game and get my entire guild to come hate your post so you get banned. That would never happen, right? Or wasnt that the basis for some of the early changes to the rep system?

We, as a community, already have tools to do these things. We can /ignore the people we dont like. This is something each individual person gets to decide for themselves. Just because you dont like what someone has to say (or even if 100 people dont like it) that doesnt mean I dont like it. That only encourages a form of bullying -- if enough pple disagree, they get to censor that person on behalf of everyone (even if everyone doesnt actually agree). Then the second person who might agree with them is now censored by proxy, because they are afraid to post and get actually censored. In theory, that is a good preventative measure, but in reality, it only stifles conversation. Use your own /ignore and problem solved.

We already have a system that lets the community as a whole judge its own members. Its called the rep system. You can look at a person's rep and get a general idea of what the community thinks of them right away, before you even read their posts. The fact that WE the community have misused the system as a like/dislike/popularity contest only highlights the fact that WE the community should not be allowed to have control over the posting rights of others.

[Lerincho]

Sadly untrue.
Ten total infractions, expired or not, will result in a permaban.

Hate to break it to you, but you are wrong despite what the website says. I cannot tell you how I know publicly. If you would like to discuss this in PM so that we do not violate guidelines you are more than welcome.

[varusso]

I'm not actually asking for free speech on the forums.
I do think it should be moderated. And moderated often.

I just do not like a situation that can allow a large number of people to force another person to "shut up" just because they disagree with him.

For instance, the neg rep I get, is usually because I am so vocal against elititst or anti-noob posts comments.
While I do tend to get a lot more pos rep than neg, many of the neg reppers are vets who's rep carries more weight... and they have friends.

it would be easy for forum vets to band together and shutdown any new player who posts comments that they disagree with.

Woe be it to the new guy who comes to a forum, where vets have all of the power to squlech them into silence.....

...and dare to brag about his 6 Con Elf.

Yes, forums should be moderated -- by the folks who own them. Any time we allow the community to dictate what is acceptable, we end up with a self-defeating system. See your example and the ones I have posted.

I am confused now... are we agreeing, disagreeing, or just killing time waiting for a raid? LOL

[rest]

Hate to break it to you, but you are wrong despite what the website says. I cannot tell you how I know publicly. If you would like to discuss this in PM so that we do not violate guidelines you are more than welcome.

PM'd

[Thrudh]

Sadly untrue.
Ten total infractions, expired or not, will result in a permaban.






LINK

Thank you for the link...

But it's still not perfectly clear... It says 10 ACTIVE points... They should get rid of the word "active" if expired infraction points also count towards this total.

And the total for perma-banned is 20, not 10? That seems reasonable to me, although I still think infractions 3+ years old (or even 5+ years old) should be erased

[rest]

Thank you for the link...

But it's still not perfectly clear... It says 10 ACTIVE points... They should get rid of the word "active" if expired infraction points also count towards this total.

And the total for perma-banned is 20, not 10? That seems reasonable to me, although I still think infractions 3+ years old (or even 5+ years old) should be erased

Look at the bottom bullet point:

A total of 10 infractions* (Premium or VIP accounts): Permanent

*Automatic bans based on the number of infractions take all infractions into account, refardless of the Active or Expired status. If an account is above the limit when this change was implemented (August 2010) it will be banned if any further infractions are issued against it.

[Thrudh]

Look at the bottom bullet point:

A total of 10 infractions* (Premium or VIP accounts): Permanent

*Automatic bans based on the number of infractions take all infractions into account, refardless of the Active or Expired status. If an account is above the limit when this change was implemented (August 2010) it will be banned if any further infractions are issued against it.

Oh! So it's 10 total infractions everyone is worried about... Yeah it would be pretty hard to get 20 ACTIVE points in the 3-6 months infractions remain active..

Got it... thanks for the clarification.

[Cyr]

Thank you for the link...

But it's still not perfectly clear... It says 10 ACTIVE points... They should get rid of the word "active" if expired infraction points also count towards this total.

And the total for perma-banned is 20, not 10? That seems reasonable to me, although I still think infractions 3+ years old (or even 5+ years old) should be erased

You need to look under those point totals (infractions are worth a vary number of points depending upon the current position of the sun in the sky, the price of oil, and the third letter of the offending post) explanations to the one that says "A total of ten infractions".

The difference here is total number of infractions and not the total number of infraction points.

[Lerincho]

Look at the bottom bullet point:

A total of 10 infractions* (Premium or VIP accounts): Permanent

*Automatic bans based on the number of infractions take all infractions into account, refardless of the Active or Expired status. If an account is above the limit when this change was implemented (August 2010) it will be banned if any further infractions are issued against it.

Please stop spreading false information.

[Memnir]

I bow to my sensei.

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