Whirling Steel Strike Needs a Pass

[jakeelala]

Right now WSS basically is a 2 feat, feat (requires WF: Slash).

It's a ki weapon, but the best monk ki strikes DONT work with it (Quivering palm, ToD, Stunning Blow).

Also, by about level 12 higher fist base damage pretty much makes fists a much better option, at a cost of zero feats.

I'm not saying monks should be able to get it for free or anything, but with the 2 feat cost, it's only really affordable on a deep fighter splash, or relatively pure monk. On a pure'ish monk, it just doesn't keep up with fists.

And a fighter splash the only real option, but because longswords aren't really that good compared to other weapons, it's sort of a strange choice. Unless you want to be able to use ki strikes with that monk splash, except, the best ki strikes cant be used...back to square 1.

Isn't there something you could do to make this more attractive? Longswords as mentioned are already pretty low on the list of DPS weapons (Khopeshes, Rapiers, Scimitars are all quite a bit better).

I'm not exactly sure what I have in mind, but something. Because right now, even though I run a WSS build, I do so purely for favor and to not have to recraft GS. Not because it's a very attractive option. It's a crutch.

And again, for the record, I recognize the synergy with Kensei, but that's such a narrow application, I just never see Fighter/Monk Kensei builds with WSS. If you want melee DPS, there are much better options.

[ulticleo]

it's not meant for pure monks. pure monks use their hands, knees, elbows, feet, head shoulder knees and toes - knees and toes!

note that monks are not even proficient with LS, so it would be 3 feats for a pure monk.

the feat is really meant for a multiclass character, with either a splash or maybe a bit more of monk, that wishes to stay centered for some reasons. examples are elf exploiters, healing amp palys/clerics/fighters (for the bracers 25%), etc.

the weapon focus feat requirement kinda sucks, and c/should be removed. either way, there is nothing you can do to make it particularly appealing to a pure monk.

EDIT: forgot to mention that in all likelihood, the reason to be centered is not for the ki strikes, but the stance

[QuantumFX]

it's not meant for pure monks. pure monks use their hands, knees, elbows, feet, head shoulder knees and toes - knees and toes!

Which is why the OP is suggesting this. Just cause I have two longswords/kamas in my hands doesn’t mean I can’t kick you in the face.

I would be all for this so long as the attacks don’t get any of your weapon bonuses.

[Adrian99]

It seems like you're picking on the WSS feat here. How many feats are there that no min/maxer would take because there's a better feat to take instead? Either a feat is worth taking to you, or it isn't because you would rather take a different feat. There's no logical justification for selecting a particular feat, making up a theoretical different effect for that feat, and arguing that the feat should have the capabilities you suggest. Would anyone not take Power Critical if it gave the equivalent of +10 exceptional seeker? Didn't think so.

[Lord_kNiels]

I do agree that this feat shouldn't have the weapon focus: slashing as a requirement, as the actual proficiency with longswords should be enough.

As for not being able to use ToD, Quivering Palm and Stunning Fist (Stunning Blow should work) no weapons, not even kamas do. These attacks are only for unarmed strikes which matches the actual way these attacks are performed.

Also this feats purpose is not to aid the pure monks, which are (at least thats my impression) intended to use unarmed attacks as their main offense with the other weapons being situationally useful.

I have seen a few whirling steel strike builds, both fighter and paladin, which have worked very well in the parties. And I didn't get the impression that these were for best DPS but for flavor and alternative play styles for more experienced players who had already "been everywhere".

[jakeelala]

im glad that all of you, even those of you who purport not to, agree with me.

its too many feats, it's not worth the slots, and it's only for flavor builds. The stances Are nice I'll grant you, but for the best stances you have to take a lot of Monk levels and you're wasting those levels when you can't use the good ki strikes with them.

So, only argument for WSS: monk stances.

Problem: good monk stances require at minimum 6, but really at best, 12 monk levels. At that point, you should be using fists.

Therefore, WSS sucks, as it stands today. Without the WF:Slash req. it would be a little more tolerable I suppose. It's still way behind fists with the good ki moves.

Instead of lowering the bar, make WSS require WF: Slash and something else, and then allow ALL of the ki strikes. How about that? 3 feats, but I can ToD and Stunning Blow with my Lit2 LS.

Just a thought.

[grodon9999]

make it work with Scimitars

[QuantumFX]

make it work with Scimitars

Funny you should mention that… (Valenar elves can actually do this in P&P.)

[grodon9999]

Funny you should mention that… (Valenar elves can actually do this in P&P.)

Really? Then why the heck is that not included? That'd be kinda cool.

[QuantumFX]

Really? Then why the heck is that not included? That'd be kinda cool.

It’s either in Races of Ebberon or the Ebberon Campaign sourcebook. Kieth Baker was trying to give Ebberon a vibe from Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. Valenar can also use the double scimitar as a centered weapon.

I would prefer an attack rate increase for WSS to be equal to normal monk unarmed attack rate. Dual longswords seem downright sluggish compared to unarmed. It's pretty sad really.

This is a 2-3 feat investment (depending on build), and it makes sense to give it a little boost.

They could stand to do this for all centered weapons. Just because monks wanted other options than kamas was no reason to leave kamas so far in the dust that no one wants to use them.

[grodon9999]

It’s either in Races of Ebberon or the Ebberon Campaign sourcebook. Kieth Baker was trying to give Ebberon a vibe from Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. Valenar can also use the double scimitar as a centered weapon.

They could stand to do this for all centered weapons. Just because monks wanted other options than kamas was no reason to leave kamas so far in the dust that no one wants to use them.

it's not like we'd have to worry about a bunch of over-powered ELF melees running around Stormreach, nothing would be the monstrosity to game-balance that is half-orc. This could give players a few more viable options.

And the swing-speed should equal that of hand-wraps when centered.

[masterzzan]

if u want the look. just go ninja spy and wield a sun-blade. if like most monks u take the 2wf then u can duel -wield 2 sun-blades ( my fev why to cealr zombies : )

[Jaid314]

imo, all ki strikes should work with all ki weapons. as has been pointed out, just because i have a kama (or longsword) in my hand that doesn't mean i'm unable to kick you in the head, which is an unarmed strike.

even more ideally, this would even work with ranged weapons (ie while holding a shuriken, or a bow if you have zen archery, you should be able to boot people in the head as well)

[Whargoul]

I would prefer an attack rate increase for WSS to be equal to normal monk unarmed attack rate. Dual longswords seem downright sluggish compared to unarmed. It's pretty sad really.

This is a 2-3 feat investment (depending on build), and it makes sense to give it a little boost.

[jakeelala]

typical Turbine. Some dev/game designer has wood for punching animations on monks and as such every other option becomes inferior to them. SIGH.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

Most of us could agree that there are a few select character builds that min/max powergamers use to output the pinnacle of DPS.

We could even agree that longsword is not the best DPS melee weapon.

I played Mokune an 8 FoL Monk/12 L-Sword Kensai Ftr to cap and absolutely loved the build, the flavor, the survivability etc. WSS added a new flavor to the game and new build choices.

Just TRd and in this life will be 2Ftr/6Pal/12Monk with WSS feat and will still use my MIN2 L-Sword, and Air Tier 3 GS L-Swords.

Yes I actually made a Trip/Haste Guard GS Longsword instead of LIT2!

Yes I will use monk Handwraps when I need em.

AND Yes! I will be in Earth 3 Stance most of the time, Fists of Iron that work with weapons besides wraps, Earth Attacks (Flat +4 Damage, +8 Damage, +12 Damage +acid on crits), triple earth finishers, Divine Sacrifice + Healing Curses, Exalted Smite, Healing Amp, Pal Devotion, Helf Dilltante FVS, great saves, self sufficiency etc etc etc.

Top DPS? No...

And no YuGiOh Pots, No Litany, no ToD rings.