How to build a spellsinger?

[maddmatt70]

And yet . . . these bards are still very effective though not getting the power-gamer stamp of approval. how is that possible?

I am going to challenge your assertion that they are effective because any of the other spell casting classes would do the job that you talk about better. I can make a shield bearing one handed melee (non tank) and be effective in epics and other end game quests but who would I be kidding.

[Chai]

I am going to challenge your assertion that they are effective because any of the other spell casting classes would do the job that you talk about better. I can make a shield bearing one handed melee (non tank) and be effective in epics and other end game quests but who would I be kidding.

Jack of all trades, master of none.

I would not expect a bard to DPS better than pure DPS classes, CC better than a caster built for CC, or heal better than a heal specced cleric or FvS.

Effective =/= best class at doing this job. Effective = getting the job done.

By the definition you are bantering, bards arent effective at anything, because theres someone else who can do a better job.

I disagree.

[maddmatt70]

Jack of all trades, master of none.

I would not expect a bard to DPS better than pure DPS classes, CC better than a caster built for CC, or heal better than a heal specced cleric or FvS.

Effective =/= best class at doing this job. Effective = getting the job done.

So are you planning to make a bunch of 'effective' builds? I mean lets go roll up some 1 hand shield bearing melee and a bunch of other 'effective' builds and get the job done because we easily could. We could beat any quest in the game with some lesser characters that is for sure. I do not see people in game making 'effective' builds though, but rather builds closer to the best class at doing the job at hand. I kind of doubt that you are seeing anything different.

The best bard for the job at hand is no different then the best cleric for the job at hand. My cleric was enchantment specced last mod because in certain situations it was a great way to play a cleric. Well I respecced my cleric to evoker/necromancy because that is a better cleric in update 9. A bard is no different then a cleric as a class. Bard cc is really really poor in udpate 9 at the end game so why in the world would somebody spec for it at all much less advise somebody else to make a new build centered around it.

[Bilger]

So are you planning to make a bunch of 'effective' builds? I mean lets go roll up some 1 hand shield bearing melee and a bunch of other 'effective' builds and get the job done because we easily could. We could beat any quest in the game with some lesser characters that is for sure. I do not see people in game making 'effective' builds though, but rather builds closer to the best class at doing the job at hand. I kind of doubt that you are seeing anything different.

The best bard for the job at hand is no different then the best cleric for the job at hand. My cleric was enchantment specced last mod because in certain situations it was a great way to play a cleric. Well I respecced my cleric to evoker/necromancy because that is a better cleric in update 9. A bard is no different then a cleric as a class. Bard cc is really really poor in udpate 9 at the end game so why in the world would somebody spec for it at all much less advise somebody else to make a new build centered around it.

By what you are saying a barb is better than a WC they can melee better. A caster can do the job better for cc. Blah, blah, blah,.......

There is always a class better than a bard at a single thing a CC/heal bard if played right can take that caster and healer spot and take 5 melees instead of 3.

I take mine all the time in epic his disco sticks most and if don't get first time through grabs rest on second run through and with 5 mellee they drop faster than if had a caster fvs and bard for songs. It all depends on group and player.

All bards have there niche just because to you they are worthless to others they may not be.

[theboatman]

Not to rain on your anti cc parade, but I took my 39dc spellsinger into eChrono last night and in between healing was tossing out disco balls and single target holds/dances. Didn't miss a single hold all night, all I attribute it to a hefty investment in spell pen and the FvS Aura of menace giving the saves penalty. (First life, btw)

[Rydin_Dirtay]

Healing has nothing to do with CC. My melee warchanter can heal just fine and has in virtually everything. My old cc/healing bard should be respecced to melee/healing, but I have elected to bench her in non raids in the hopes that the devs fix her someday.

I feel the same way about my cc/healing bard.

Most of the endgame 6-man's I am in, are fine with arcane and divine healing and cc. But they lack in true blue quick takedown melee DPS. Or let me put it this way...if the 6th man could bring a little more dps, it would make for a much smoother and faster completion, with less resource usage.

[Bilger]

I feel the same way about my cc/healing bard.

Most of the endgame 6-man's I am in, are fine with arcane and divine healing and cc. But they lack in true blue quick takedown melee DPS. Or let me put it this way...if the 6th man could bring a little more dps, it would make for a much smoother and faster completion, with less resource usage.

But if that 6 man could replace caster and healer and have songs and adds a 5th melee to group then they go down faster than with a cc caster and healer in group.

Makes alot easier and quicker with far less resources used.

[Chai]

So are you planning to make a bunch of 'effective' builds? I mean lets go roll up some 1 hand shield bearing melee and a bunch of other 'effective' builds and get the job done because we easily could. We could beat any quest in the game with some lesser characters that is for sure. I do not see people in game making 'effective' builds though, but rather builds closer to the best class at doing the job at hand. I kind of doubt that you are seeing anything different.

I see people making effective builds, but not the exagerated hyperbole you are using as an example.

The best bard for the job at hand is no different then the best cleric for the job at hand. My cleric was enchantment specced last mod because in certain situations it was a great way to play a cleric. Well I respecced my cleric to evoker/necromancy because that is a better cleric in update 9. A bard is no different then a cleric as a class. Bard cc is really really poor in udpate 9 at the end game so why in the world would somebody spec for it at all much less advise somebody else to make a new build centered around it.

Because CC bards still work. People put in the time to gear them out before the update, and the decision they need to make is either stay CC specced and geared, or focus on something else and respec / regear. The ones who choose to stay CC still get the job done. Theres no reason to assume that a new character cant get the same gear DCs and be just as effective.

The whole point is: They were NEVER as effective as a CC wizard, even previous to U9, and your definition of whats accepted seems to be the "if youre not first youre last" approach. Since theres another class that can do CC better than you, dont spec into CC. Im pointing out that if this is the way we think of how to play this game, dont ever roll up a bard. Theres always another class that can do something better than they can.

[maddmatt70]

But if that 6 man could replace caster and healer and have songs and adds a 5th melee to group then they go down faster than with a cc caster and healer in group.

Makes alot easier and quicker with far less resources used.

That was pre-mod 9 thinking which is no longer true. More Melee do not necessarily mean faster completions anymore and in fact they typically mean slower completion times. A top notch caster is more valuable then a top notch melee in DDO in terms of completion times so the best party is something more like 4 wiz/sorc/fvs 1-2 melee 0-1 battle bard when all players are top notch. Give players time to figure out spellcasters and over time the game will revert to something else altogether different then you espouse.

[Rydin_Dirtay]

But if that 6 man could replace caster and healer and have songs and adds a 5th melee to group then they go down faster than with a cc caster and healer in group.

Makes alot easier and quicker with far less resources used.

Yeah I know. But too many pugger 6-mans freak out when they don't have a Cleric or FVS in the run. They don't think a Bard can HJEAL them. They think they need moar hjeals, when in fact the real problem is they can't do enough DPS to do quick takedowns.

[Bilger]

That was pre-mod 9 thinking which is no longer true. More Melee do not necessarily mean faster completions anymore and in fact they typically mean slower completion times. A top notch caster is more valuable then a top notch melee in DDO in terms of completion times so the best party is something more like 4 wiz/sorc/fvs 1-2 melee 0-1 battle bard when all players are top notch. Give players time to figure out spellcasters and over time the game will revert to something else altogether different then you espouse.

Yea your group would work well to.

They both will complete easy and within seconds of another prob.

One way just because it's your way isn't better than anothers way when gets the job done just as quick and efficient.

You might not believe so but others do and I do. We all can play as we like but to blatantly say something is dead and is far from it is just wrong.

CC/Heal are still great and do the job just because you have a certain look at something doesn't make it fact or right.

[Samadhi]

Max songs
Max HP
Max Healing
Max Str

Prioritize in that order, dump Cha, and have a ton of mana to heal yourself and the party while you hit things

[maddmatt70]

Yea your group would work well to.

They both will complete easy and within seconds of another prob.

One way just because it's your way isn't better than anothers way when gets the job done just as quick and efficient.

You might not believe so but others do and I do. We all can play as we like but to blatantly say something is dead and is far from it is just wrong.

CC/Heal are still great and do the job just because you have a certain look at something doesn't make it fact or right.

Check out the fastest times thread in the achievement thread and tell me that 5 melee 1 bard could come close to those times posted by the Revenants guild on khyber for epic 6 mans.

[Bilger]

Check out the fastest times thread in the achievement thread and tell me that 5 melee 1 bard could come close to those times posted by the Revenants guild on khyber for epic 6 mans.

So a group that zergs and goes for it with top notch players builds and everything yea thats something to compare to lol

Seriously just because top notch players did it that fast makes cc/heal bards bad.

Is that seriously your argument lol ok leaving this alone now this is going no where.

We have two diff opinions which is fine.

[grodon9999]

I am going to challenge your assertion that they are effective because any of the other spell casting classes would do the job that you talk about better. I can make a shield bearing one handed melee (non tank) and be effective in epics and other end game quests but who would I be kidding.

Oh come on, that's just being silly.

[Raithe]

Theres always another class that can do something better than they can.

In a generic category sense, perhaps. There is no other class that can provide spellsong trance, spellsong vigor, ironskin chant, or inspire courage/greatness. A bard's ability to buff melee damage output and conserve/regenerate spell points is not matched by or even comparable to any other class.

A top notch caster is more valuable then a top notch melee in DDO in terms of completion times so the best party is something more like 4 wiz/sorc/fvs 1-2 melee 0-1 battle bard when all players are top notch.

No. Pure melee classes would have no part in the ultimately optimized best party scheme. A spellsinger would always be included in the optimized best party scheme because of the spellpoint regeneration and 10% efficiency with +1 DC. Yes, said spellsinger will be one of the primary melee combatants if melee is necessary due to poor sp management, but generally the bard would probably best be used to fascinate large groups of enemies, debuff them, and have them ready for a wail that kills everything with only a 5% failure.

I get tired of reading threads that moan and gripe about the current state of bard CC. Bards have fascinate - the best emergency CC there is. While my caster may contribute to a slightly faster quest in a majority of situations, there is no character like my bard that contributes to the reliability of completion. He is closer to an easy button than even my sorc.

[Aashrym]

Oh come on, that's just being silly.

I don't think it's silly to claim that building bard casters is a poor choice. The difference between a CC bard, CC wiz, CC sorc pre U9 was a lot smaller than it is now.

Sure, a bard can still be built for casting CC but a wiz can be put in that slot can be built for better CC (same as pre U9) and now also has the DOT's, instakills, and better upfront damage options (ie cheaper costs and lower epic trash hp) than pre U9. They always had mass hold monster and web as a big plus.

Bringing a bard caster is not a good idea compared to the spells a wizard can bring. I'm much better off with a necro/enchantment wizard, and if it is a high caster party I'm better off with a FvS AoV as a healer too. Better effect with caster DC's and spell pen on the aura, much more SP, also has direct damage, dot's, instant kills.

Melee is the better option. It adds more party damage and we don't have redundant CC. The melee bard can still fascinate and OID. The healing options and buffs are all still available and the AP become cheaper without the big CC focus.

Going melee spellsinger means it doesn't matter what the party composition is... the bard always has songs to buff the party. When I see players looking at a CC bard as a viable alternative usually it's because they are still looking at 1 caster, or a replacement for 1 caster, and a lot of melee. Not only did that 1 caster get an upgrade now it's a good idea to take more than one. Taking 1 barb, 1 fvs, 1 bard, 1 wiz, 2 sorcs and things are different. I'm seeing more and more mixed groups and it all boils down to what gets added to the group.

I get tired of reading threads that moan and gripe about the current state of bard CC. Bards have fascinate - the best emergency CC there is. While my caster may contribute to a slightly faster quest in a majority of situations, there is no character like my bard that contributes to the reliability of completion. He is closer to an easy button than even my sorc.

Fascinate can be a high impact ability. The thing is, we don't need to be a CC caster to use it.