PSA Haste does not waste a valuable spell slot

[stille_nacht]

People can make their own decisions, and no one should hate them over it.

Just my opionions on the topic

Now, please take a deep breath and try to enjoy the game

DDO 2 - Fourms of Insanity!!!!!!!!!!
MOD 1 - Haste debate

people can make their own decisions, but i reserve the right to think it is completely inane. you CAN but the question is, why? in this case it does not even serve a real purpose.

on topic, does any sorceror honestly have 5 3rd level spells that he/she includes in his/her spell cycle? i certainly dont...

[Aashrym]

Can't imagine how you could miss my important post in a 30 (almost there) page thread!

I think it's because I also play the game instead of just sitting on the forums talking about it.

From levels 6-10 my sorc is definitely not taking Rage over Displacement, Haste, or Prot from Energy.

Reasonable but no one stays under level 10.

For levels 11-18 or so, depending on my build and how frequently I solo vs PUG, I may not take Rage in lieu of Acid Blast, Fireball, Hold Person, Suggestion, Chain Missiles, Frost Lance, Halt Undead, lightning bolt, ray of exhaustion.

Hold person and suggestion are very poor choices. Hold person is outclassed by hold monster, mass hold person, and mass hold monster. Suggestion has better alternatives, blanket immunities as well, immunities to creatures in some areas who normally wouldn't have it because Turbine decided controlling mobs is more effective than killing them, and it use in epics is limited to creating a diversion.

Third level damage spells are all outclassed by higher level spells. I can see adding another for specific reasons maybe but not to bump some of the staple group spells that cannot be replaced.

I like Chain Missiles as a force spell for a backup damage line. Halt Undead and Ray of Exhaustion also have better alternatives, but even if the higher level slots are full these are far more situational than rage.

After 18 my sorc might take it. But I don't use Rage when I solo, and Rage is usually carried by the Bard or Wiz in any given group, so using one of my sorc's four slots on a redundant spell would be a waste. AND it comes in pots.

Pots get dispelled more easily, take up inventory space, and don't last as long. I use rage soloing all the time. What I find odd is calling rage redundant with a bard or wizzie but listing suggestion which is likely to be redundant if needed. Also assuming someone else will have it so you don't need it leads to no one having it if they make the same assumptions.

Rage, like nearly every other spell, is situational.

Halt undead and suggestion are situational. Rage gives more hit points, which is far less situational.

[Aashrym]

I *think* they plan on adding more spells to the game. But even so I still think haste will remain on spell lists. Rage.. I'd not be so certain.

That depends on what gets added, but I would tend to agree. More spell options might bump spells out of those slots.

[Aashrym]

Wow these haste debates never end, just imagine what would happen if they introduced improved haste. DDO would explode in a hot air filled tornado of endless debating.

The Eberron setting has a spell called Unfettered Heroism (races of Eberron page 90). It lets the player spend more than one action point per round and provides an extra free action point per round.

I think if we had that adapted to DDO it would translate as an improved form of haste.

[Aashrym]

And Rage. And Blur.

What if he doesn't? That's the same as assuming the sorc would take them, but his character and his choice too, whether other players agree there are better spells for the bard or not.

Why is it okay to expect the bards to have certain spells but not sorcs?

[Truga]

Just to doublecheck:
In your opinion, expecting other people to spend a couple thousands of platinum on haste pots, so that you can finish the quest faster isn't selfish, and expecting the random puggers to have stacks of haste pots and/or GS clickies is not elitist in the least?

Nope, frankly, I simply don't care if they have them or not, it's their toon. However, they also shouldn't care if I have haste or not.

Take DBF or meteor swarm instead of fireball (actually, with just the firewall, fireball is pretty much obsolete). Acid rain instead of acid blast. Polar ray instead of frost lance. Repair critical or reconstruct instead of repair serious. And chain lightning or ball lightning instead of lightning bolt.
That leaves you with 2 spells for 4 slots. You can slot haste, and even return one of the other ones.

Actually, no. Acid blast "stacks" with acid rain. Frost lance "stacks" with polar ray. There's these things called cooldowns, where you can't spam the same single spell over and over again, but need to wait for the cooldown to happen. A sorcerer that packs otiluke's freezing, frost lance and polar ray will drop elite velah in what ~15 seconds? Remove any one of these three and it's ~20 seconds. That's 5 seconds extra for her to breathe fire and wipe your party. I've seen this happen in a pug. My wizard was the last dude standing, with velah, and everyone else, dead. If I had a full ****** dps setup (my wiz doesn't have empower, because personally I never needed it until dots became available) this probably wouldn't happen. Instead, I have extend, two greater focuses and whatnot else. All so I can "help" the party. Help them wipe faster apparently.

Whereas haste does what, remove a second or two because some melees (the ones not dead yet anyway) got a couple extra hits for ~100 damage in?

Also, on my casters, I prefer rage over haste. Haste does nothing for them, and the duration is short. Rage helps with ray of enfeeblement early on, and later it gives 20 stackable hp.

[MindCake]

[...] cooldowns[...] A sorcerer that packs otiluke's freezing, frost lance and polar ray will drop elite velah in what ~15 seconds? Remove any one of these three and it's ~20 seconds. That's 5 seconds extra for her to breathe fire and wipe your party.

Good argument there.
It was already mentioned before that acid-ice builds may need acid blast/frost lance, and in this particular build a haste or rage may actually not make it to be among the 4 best choices.

If your frost lance and acid blast give more benefits than haste or rage or whatever, then by all means you should bring them!

[MindCake]

Is that really any different than the "I-am-not-a-HEALBOT!" Clerics and FvS expecting characters to bring heal/remcurse/remdisease/remblind pots?

Come to think of it, it is precisely that.
Not to detract from this thread, I find the fountains of "I'm not a healbot" QQ ridiculous. I don't want a healbot. But if someone has a cure spell that would save me and the whole party a couple thousands platinum in potions and wands per run, at no cost to themselves, I expect them to use it.

The difference being the the "not a hastebot" arcanes are worse, since it's just one spell, costs 20SP and you only need to cast it every other minute.

My melees spend untold thousands on heal pots.

Not everyone has access to untold thousands.

Can't/won't/don't... what's the difference?

The difference is when someone who doesn't yet know how it works reads these posts and tries to get an idea what to do.
If they get the idea not taking haste and screaming "can't slot haste! my build is my build! buy potions!" is all fine, or that builds that "can't slot haste" are common, we might end up with an influx of insufferable noobs.
If they get the idea that taking haste is _usually_ a good idea unless their specific build has specific demands and that more skill is needed to utilize these builds to make them worthwile, we might end up with people with a clue.

For clarification, at what level do you expect a sorcerer to have haste & rage? Is it only level 13 sorcs and above who are subject to these expectations? Or every level capable of casting a 3rd level spell?

Certainly not level 6!
I figure around 9 I'd begin to wonder "why".

As I said before, I have no expectations of PUG members.

Neither do I. Box of chocolates etc. But I prefer the ones that don't fail.



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Know what, yes. Buy your own pots.

Oh, you want to save plat. Now you're just being greedy.

Oh yes, I want to save plat. I want 5 other people to save plat and time too. That's why we're in the party. So that the quest is won faster, easier and with less spending. Completely greedy and selfish, and yet working towards a common goal.

Why didn't you show up to the quest prepared? Oh, you are going to pike.

Oh, so you consider a melee that didn't bring a stack of haste pots to be piking now?
So, someone who didn't make the effort to make the quest run 10-20% faster is a piker, unless it's you?
Nice double-standards you got there.

Why should I have to be the one to give? What are you giving me? You kill things? I can do that.

If you think the other 5-11 people aren't doing anything for you, and yet still you want to group with them, then I'd say your problems go deeper than have or have-not of haste. I don't want to party with crazy people, especially if the crazy goes in the way of gameplay performance.

If you expect me to build YOUR way, you are being selfish.

No, I expect you to optimize your character towards the most common objective in the game: going from A to B and killing C on the way there. All of which are speed up by haste. You don't have to build my way, but I expect you to build in a reasonable way OR compensate.

I await several thousand Turbine points for you to have that privilege.

I can't slot haste because there are other spells I want to have there. There is nothing wrong with this argument.

Wrong.
The argument that you "can't slot haste" is wrong, unless you're a sorcerer and on timer for swapping spells.
You can slot it, you just won't.

As for "won't slot haste", it raises the question of "why would you not slot haste".

If you have a specific build where some other spells actually are better, that's fine.

If you're deluding yourself to thing that whatever choices you made are optimal when they aren't, then I probably won't enjoy partying with you.

If you know haste would make things go easier and faster, but you'd rather throw less efficient spells that are more "fun" to you, I don't want to party with you.

If you know about haste, but are making a flavour build, then unless you compensate with better-than-average gameplay and gear, I don't want to party with you.

[Ironforge_Clan]

Good argument there.
It was already mentioned before that acid-ice builds may need acid blast/frost lance, and in this particular build a haste or rage may actually not make it to be among the 4 best choices.

If your frost lance and acid blast give more benefits than haste or rage or whatever, then by all means you should bring them!

Here you agree with a person for not taking haste.

No, I expect you to optimize your character towards the most common objective in the game: going from A to B and killing C on the way there. All of which are speed up by haste. You don't have to build my way, but I expect you to build in a reasonable way OR compensate.


Wrong.
The argument that you "can't slot haste" is wrong, unless you're a sorcerer and on timer for swapping spells.
You can slot it, you just won't.

As for "won't slot haste", it raises the question of "why would you not slot haste".

If you have a specific build where some other spells actually are better, that's fine.

If you're deluding yourself to thing that whatever choices you made are optimal when they aren't, then I probably won't enjoy partying with you.

If you know haste would make things go easier and faster, but you'd rather throw less efficient spells that are more "fun" to you, I don't want to party with you.

If you know about haste, but are making a flavour build, then unless you compensate with better-than-average gameplay and gear, I don't want to party with you.

And here you're are objecting to someone not taking haste.


So which is it?

[MindCake]

[...]

If you have a specific build where some other spells actually are better, that's fine.

[...]

If you know about haste, but are making a flavour build, then unless you compensate with better-than-average gameplay and gear, I don't want to party with you.

And here you're are objecting to someone not taking haste.


So which is it?

Reading comprehension.

Edit: or you know what, considering your next reply you either can't or refuse to even try comprehending, so I'll spell it out in a way you can understand:
If you provide as much as an average random pugger, doesn't matter what you provide or how, if it's worth at least as much in terms of contributing to victory, you're welcome in.
If you provide less than an average random, I'd rather take a random pugger instead and hope for an average or above.

[DDOisFree]

nvm.

What I was trying to say in this post is -

1) Sorcerers are DPS casters, not buffers
2) Wizards are DC casters, and buffing is completely optional for them
3) Bards are buffers.

If you want buffs, then look for a bard or a wizard. Dont rely on sorcerers to fill this role, they are DPS caster.

If you have no wizards or bards in your group, and only a sorcerer, then dont expect any buffs. Its your fault as the teams leader for not taking a class that is meant to have buffs (Sorcerers do not need to play the role of buffer).

In epic raids, its nice to have a bard for buffs, a wizard for CCs, and a Sorcerer to DPS red names with DoTs in any 12 man group.

[grodon9999]

I think we're good for 35 pages.

[stille_nacht]

for an ice savant...
frost lance.... lightning bolt.... acid blast... i dunno, chain missile? those are the only possible worthwile dps spells, and its really far stretch to say that you include all of them in your casting cycle (most likely only 2 max will make it in there).

if you spam 4 level 3 spells you arent even increasing your DPS, you are lowering it :/.

so slot haste darn it! and probably displacement too!

[Ironforge_Clan]

Reading comprehension.

There was no comprehension issue on my part. You are very wishy washy in your post. Either you can accept that someone didn't take haste or you don't. You can't have it both ways. The other parts of your response lead me to believe that you were not tolerant of a sorc that did not carry haste. There really is no middle ground with respect to the opinions being tossed around so I continue to ask you which side of the fence do you stand on?

Also when did DPS become a flavor build?

[varusso]

nvm.

What I was trying to say in this post is -

1) Sorcerers are DPS casters, not buffers
2) Wizards are DC casters, and buffing is completely optional for them
3) Bards are buffers.

If you want buffs, then look for a bard or a wizard. Dont rely on sorcerers to fill this role, they are DPS caster.

If you have no wizards or bards in your group, and only a sorcerer, then dont expect any buffs. Its your fault as the teams leader for not taking a class that is meant to have buffs (Sorcerers do not need to play the role of buffer).

In epic raids, its nice to have a bard for buffs, a wizard for CCs, and a Sorcerer to DPS red names with DoTs in any 12 man group.

I find it absolutely hilarious when someone argues not to pigeonhole someone by pigeonholing them.

[Chai]

There was no comprehension issue on my part. You are very wishy washy in your post. Either you can accept that someone didn't take haste or you don't. You can't have it both ways. The other parts of your response lead me to believe that you were not tolerant of a sorc that did not carry haste. There really is no middle ground with respect to the opinions being tossed around so I continue to ask you which side of the fence do you stand on?

Also when did DPS become a flavor build?

Agreeing that someones spell selection will help them in one specific scenario =/= accepting not taking haste in all case scenarios.

Vellah on elite? Please. If she even gets a breath weapon off there are alot more issues there than a sorc who doesnt carry haste to have one more ice spell.

[Missing_Minds]

Vellah on elite? Please. If she even gets a breath weapon off there are alot more issues there than a sorc who doesnt carry haste to have one more ice spell.

Such as doing the raid at level and not having original greensteel?

[Cyr]

So funny story. I'm in a pug last night that someone else organized. We are doing vale content and sorc comes into party. Seems pretty clueless overall (took over ten minutes to get to sleeping dust). When they get there they start wand whipping themselves with an eternal wand of healing. Suprise, surprise the sorc did not carry haste. Guess how the rest of the party responded? Yup, you guessed it they didn't launch into an outpouring of support for someone 'playing how they want to'. They were shocked the person didn't have haste and even more shocked when during the quest that same guy was wand whipping himself and others with apparently a large stack of those eternal heal wands. I'm pretty sure he also used some electric SLA's during the quest. SP on that toon never dropped below 75%.

[Missing_Minds]

So funny story. I'm in a pug last night that someone else organized. We are doing vale content and sorc comes into party. Seems pretty clueless overall (took over ten minutes to get to sleeping dust). When they get there they start wand whipping themselves with an eternal wand of healing. Suprise, surprise the sorc did not carry haste. Guess how the rest of the party responded? Yup, you guessed it they didn't launch into an outpouring of support for someone 'playing how they want to'. They were shocked the person didn't have haste and even more shocked when during the quest that same guy was wand whipping himself and others with apparently a large stack of those eternal heal wands. I'm pretty sure he also used some electric SLA's during the quest. SP on that toon never dropped below 75%.

*shrug* tis far easier to complain than it is to suck it up and kick axe.

[varusso]

*shrug* tis far easier to complain than it is to suck it up and kick axe.

Its even easier to ignore new or subpar players who could benefit from helpful advice and criticism, to help them play better and be more effective, before they join a group where their role is more critical.