PSA Haste does not waste a valuable spell slot

[Zildoran]

I haven't read every post of this thread because it has gotten ridiculously long, but I thought I'd add my 2 cents.

I really like haste. If you are the only arcane in an epic 6 man then most people will expect you to have it. If you are in a raid then I probably have a wizard and/or a bard that have extended haste and I don't really care if you have it or not. If you aren't going to bring haste that is fine, but if all the arcanes in my raid don't have haste someone probably will get the boot. However, out of 2-3 casters I haven't had an issue with that yet. Don't have rage? Not a deal-breaker. If you don't like carrying haste I won't blacklist you, but you won't be my first choice for an arcane caster.

[varusso]

Agreed, but opinion spouted as fact does not make it fact either.

(1) Fact: Everyone has the right to play what they want, how they want. Doing anything outside the standard comes with consequences.
(2) Fact: Most players expect certain things from X class. This is defined as "the standard".
Fact: If you cant or wont provide those things, many of those players wont group with you, will kick you, and/or ban you.
(3) Fact: A person is not an elitist because they expect certain things when they see your icon. It is a direct result of the standard.
(4) Fact: Rage/haste *ARE* among the standard expectations for arcanes. See #2 for clarification on the term "standard".
(5) Fact: Knowing these things, if you choose to do something non-standard, any consequences of that choice are purely your own responsibility.

FACT: Everything I have said has been in support of these facts -- except where I have has "aside" discussions with a few posters over the merits of one spell vs another.

[MrWizard]

i just want to see it get to page 30.....

bump

[grodon9999]

i just want to see it get to page 30.....

bump

SO close . . . we can do it!

[Postumus]

When you are in a group if YOU cannot be bothered to bring the things the GROUP wants, then YOU are the problem, not the group. That is a FACT.

A sweeping generalization based on subjective data is hardly a 'fact.' Unless you are part of a static group or know the other players in your group well, you can't possibly know 'what the group wants' let alone what it's members consider a 'problem' player.


I don't join PUGs full of random strangers and get upset when their characters or abilities aren't as good as they could be. PUGs are like a box of chocolates, yadda yadda yadda.


If you don't like player variation, or you feel you need to control how other people play, and you still need to PUG, you should vet your prospective teammates thoroughly (good luck with that btw). But yelling at people on the forum who disagree with your opinions is pretty pointless.

[grodon9999]

Also, haste pots are at-will, they work without the sorc next to you. If you like haste that much, shell out the plat, they're cheap at 20. Now I run haste on any and every character capable of casting it, but these threads make me want to dump it, just to read more tears.

This would be a perfect trend to start right now considering the Special Olympics are going on in Greece.

[Postumus]

(1) Fact: Everyone has the right to play what they want, how they want. Doing anything outside the standard comes with consequences.
(2) Fact: Most players expect certain things from X class. This is defined as "the standard".
Fact: If you cant or wont provide those things, many of those players wont group with you, will kick you, and/or ban you.
(3) Fact: A person is not an elitist because they expect certain things when they see your icon. It is a direct result of the standard.
(4) Fact: Rage/haste *ARE* among the standard expectations for arcanes. See #2 for clarification on the term "standard".
(5) Fact: Knowing these things, if you choose to do something non-standard, any consequences of that choice are purely your own responsibility.

FACT: Everything I have said has been in support of these facts -- except where I have has "aside" discussions with a few posters over the merits of one spell vs another.

Claiming your opinions as fact, even when you list them numerically, use colons, and then capitalize the word 'fact' at the end, still doesn't make them facts.


You've clearly conveyed how you think the rest of DDO should play.

Agree to disagree and stay classy.

San Dee-ahhh-go (from the original German).

[Truga]

OK I will give everyone a few examples from my personal toons, and maybe it will make it easier for everyone to see my points.

(1) I support players playing 'alternative build' toons, but when they are in a group, they still need to provide the basic things a group expects or dont group.

(2) I adapt to what the GROUP needs.

(1) And if they can't provide them, due to said alternative builds? This is like the "dex builds are gimp" discussion. Yes, finesse builds aren't the best for powergaming through endgame. They're still quite fun to play, and they can get you that quest/raid completion just as well, though it might be a minute or two longer run (properly played, obviously). Same goes for haste. It'll take at most a couple minutes longer, and that's it.

(2) Personally, I'm not going to even run VoD anymore on my wiz, until I think he can tank it. Drop two flies with one hit. I did one run, and there was a fleshy tank, and I literally had next to nothing to do, so I just dumped my necro SLAs onto suulo, saving SP because I had no idea then how the raid functions. I, too, haven't ran it post U9. I also don't have any repair enhancements, being a PM, and switching back and forth just for one raid is a pain, due to the 3 day timer. And hitting an 800 hp tank with 260 reconstructs just isn't workable.

And my view: I currently only have 2 characters that can't cast haste and I actually play. One is an UMD rogue, that carries pots and scrolls. Scrolls own for when there's no arcane in the group. Or there is and doesn't have haste, whatever. The other one is a FvS, he carries pots, can't umd the scrolls yet.

I just don't rely on COMPLETELY RANDOM STRANGERS WITH COMPLETELY RANDOM BUILDS AND COMPLETELY RANDOM BUILD GOALS to bring something I so much need (want, really) I'd even boot someone for not having it. Got haste? Good. Extended? Better. No? Too bad, I'll use the 100 plat I spent on scrolls. El Oh El.

I don't join PUGs full of random strangers and get upset when their characters or abilities aren't as good as they could be. PUGs are like a box of chocolates, yadda yadda yadda. .

This. Postumus said it better than me, really.

[Postumus]

Has anyone given a logical reason other spells are better in those slots at high level yet, or are we still running of the you can't tell me what to do platform?

At least six times so far regarding Rage, but you either missed those posts or dismissed them as 'illogical' because you disagreed with them.

[Postumus]

(1)

I just don't rely on COMPLETELY RANDOM STRANGERS WITH COMPLETELY RANDOM BUILDS AND COMPLETELY RANDOM BUILD GOALS to bring something I so much need (want, really) I'd even boot someone for not having it. Got haste? Good. Extended? Better. No? Too bad, I'll use the 100 plat I spent on scrolls. El Oh El.

I dunno, I was thinking I liked the way you said it.


The bigger problem seems to be, as it generally seems to be in the threads:

1- there are people who get why DDO characters are not all the same and kind of like it

2- there are people who get why DDO characters are not all the same and don't care

3- there are people who get why DDO characters are not all the same and dislike it

4- there are people who can't understand why anyone would possibly play any other way than the way they do and it drives them nuts. N-V-T-S. Nuts!

[Aashrym]

I don't know, honestly. Would you consider this statement to be factual?

"Each person has their ideas and opinions that may not agree with others."

If you agree that it is fact, why is the above not fact as well? The statement encompasses a few factors that generate a personal rating system, not a universal.

I can take the same caster into the same quest but values will change. Haste vs fireball? If I'm soloing or duoing, fireball. Party of 3-4 it is dependent on how much melee there is. Party of 5-6 normally there is enough melee that haste becomes the better answer.

Maybe just more obvious clarification instead of implied is needed?

It's a fact other players can have different opinions, if that's what you're saying. Soloing on a sorc or wiz and haste does very little. It's there to help take advantage of a team effort.

The fireball is pointless at at level 18-20 because it's a weaker damage option among a lot of damage options and damage from haste moves with the group.

My opinion is it's a waste to add another damage spell in a level 3 slot because haste is more SP efficient and helps the group. Fireball doesn't help the group so much because you could be cone of colding at the same time the party is hasted, for example. CoC has a higher damage cap and the haste is the most persistent damage over time available.

[Aashrym]

At least six times so far regarding Rage, but you either missed those posts or dismissed them as 'illogical' because you disagreed with them.

It's more likely I missed them given the speed this thread is moving. Losing track comes quickly. The other reasonable reply I saw was the specific case of an earth savant but considering they are weak to air that still leaves water and fire options at higher levels.

If I missed your reasons, I apologize and encourage you to quote it or repost it. If it's just 'because they are my spells' then that is you right to defend your right to choose but doesn't actually validate those choices as good.

[varusso]

A sweeping generalization based on subjective data is hardly a 'fact.' Unless you are part of a static group or know the other players in your group well, you can't possibly know 'what the group wants' let alone what it's members consider a 'problem' player.


I don't join PUGs full of random strangers and get upset when their characters or abilities aren't as good as they could be. PUGs are like a box of chocolates, yadda yadda yadda.


If you don't like player variation, or you feel you need to control how other people play, and you still need to PUG, you should vet your prospective teammates thoroughly (good luck with that btw). But yelling at people on the forum who disagree with your opinions is pretty pointless.

Claiming your opinions as fact, even when you list them numerically, use colons, and then capitalize the word 'fact' at the end, still doesn't make them facts.


You've clearly conveyed how you think the rest of DDO should play.

Agree to disagree and stay classy.

San Dee-ahhh-go (from the original German).

Denying something is a fact just because you dont want it to be a fact does not make it not a fact.
What I have made perfectly clear about how *I* think the game should be played is that you can play whatever you like, however you like, but accept that there will be consequences if it is outside the standard expectations. I did not in any way shape or form SET these standards; I just know what they are and dont bury my head in the sand pretending they dont exist. Attempts to subvert, spin, or otherwise distort or deliberately misconstrue these statements do not change what i have actually said.

(1) And if they can't provide them, due to said alternative builds? This is like the "dex builds are gimp" discussion. Yes, finesse builds aren't the best for powergaming through endgame. They're still quite fun to play, and they can get you that quest/raid completion just as well, though it might be a minute or two longer run (properly played, obviously). Same goes for haste. It'll take at most a couple minutes longer, and that's it.

(2) Personally, I'm not going to even run VoD anymore on my wiz, until I think he can tank it. Drop two flies with one hit. I did one run, and there was a fleshy tank, and I literally had next to nothing to do, so I just dumped my necro SLAs onto suulo, saving SP because I had no idea then how the raid functions. I, too, haven't ran it post U9. I also don't have any repair enhancements, being a PM, and switching back and forth just for one raid is a pain, due to the 3 day timer. And hitting an 800 hp tank with 260 reconstructs just isn't workable.

And my view: I currently only have 2 characters that can't cast haste and I actually play. One is an UMD rogue, that carries pots and scrolls. Scrolls own for when there's no arcane in the group. Or there is and doesn't have haste, whatever. The other one is a FvS, he carries pots, can't umd the scrolls yet.

I just don't rely on COMPLETELY RANDOM STRANGERS WITH COMPLETELY RANDOM BUILDS AND COMPLETELY RANDOM BUILD GOALS to bring something I so much need (want, really) I'd even boot someone for not having it. Got haste? Good. Extended? Better. No? Too bad, I'll use the 100 plat I spent on scrolls. El Oh El.


This. Postumus said it better than me, really.

There is absolutely nothing to say that your toon cannot contribute in meaningful ways. But if it doesnt bring something that is typically expected of your toon, then you may be denied a spot in the group, regardless of whatever else you can do. I have used several examples of how and when this may be the case. The VOD is a good example -- if the group has a WF tank and they are specifically looking for a wiz/sorc that can keep him up with repairs, and you CANT do that -- then you dont fit the bill and you will be passed over for someone who can. Its not my personal choice to be the healer for a party -- i stopped playing my cleric long ago. But in this one case, where I KNOW it is expected of me? I adapt to the group needs. Since I cant provide that on my current wizzie, I swap to one of the 3 toons that can, rather than cry about being denied on this one.

Group > Me.

[Vellrad]

i just want to see it get to page 30.....

bump

I also want to see 30 pages of this, but I got 100 poests/page displayed.

[Postumus]

Am I also and elitist jerk for expecting people to have heavy fort past level 11? It's their toons, their choice right?

Elitist to expect it? No. It's probably unrealistic to expect it. Especially with newer players.


And yes, the gear a player chooses to wear/use is his/her choice, not yours.

[KillEveryone]

I also want to see 30 pages of this, but I got 100 poests/page displayed.

We may make it.

We are now defining what is really a fact though and usually this is when we start to hear the squish of the Cube.

[varusso]

It's more likely I missed them given the speed this thread is moving. Losing track comes quickly. The other reasonable reply I saw was the specific case of an earth savant but considering they are weak to air that still leaves water and fire options at higher levels.

If I missed your reasons, I apologize and encourage you to quote it or repost it. If it's just 'because they are my spells' then that is you right to defend your right to choose but doesn't actually validate those choices as good.

Since I am one of the posters that has asked the same question (what is better than haste/rage in lvl 3 slots), I have responded to each poster I have seen that was courteous enough to answer that, rather than spout "my spells, my choice, shut up". If you hit my profile and check my posts, the first few lines of each one will be enough to tell you which ones in this thread to look at to find what people have responded with. Probably easier than searching the entire thread for their posts individually

[Postumus]

What I have made perfectly clear about how *I* think the game should be played is that you can play whatever you like, however you like, but accept that there will be consequences if it is outside the standard expectations.

And yet, as I have stated several times, I have NEVER experienced any negative consequences from not having Rage. I have also explained why, but that keeps getting ignored so I won't reiterate that here.

I have only ONCE been criticized by another player by my spell/enhancement choices in game: a WF barb who was upset my first sorc hadn't memorized Reconstruct.

I did not in any way shape or form SET these standards; I just know what they are and dont bury my head in the sand pretending they dont exist.

Actually, from the number of complaints in the forums I have read regarding these types of things (ie people playing 'the wrong way'), it seems many more players DON'T follow these alleged 'standards' than do. So how could they possibly be game 'standards?'


I think demanding people to conform to one (or a limited number) of builds and play styles is silly and needlessly limits creativity.


I think getting upset because random people from across the globe choose to play a customized character in a game that promotes customization is a wasted effort.

[mobrien316]

(3) Fact: A person is not an elitist because they expect certain things when they see your icon. It is a direct result of the standard.

People can expect whatever they want. If they boot/squelch/ban for life people who have built a character outside of your expectations, and that alone causes you to deem them "selfish", that is the very definition of an elitist attitude. People not conforming to what you or others expect them to be and being shunned for it is elitism.

There's a big difference between someone encountering a cleric who is not specced for healing and saying, "Hmmm, that's odd" and someone who encounters the same cleric and says, "A cleric without Empowered Healing?! You must be a selfish, elitist jerk! I'm never grouping with you and you are now on my banned list!"

The first person would be normal. The second person would be the elitist.

[KoboldKiller]

Lets just make this simple.

Since it would appear there are absolute authorities in here on what a arcane should or shouldn't do and what spells they should or should not have, why don't you just petition the devs to create static spells on arcanes much like clerics that way everyone can conform to your preference? Then we can all haste/rage/goose step our way through every quest.

Problem solved.