PSA Haste does not waste a valuable spell slot

[Tyrande]

[...]

Has anyone given a logical reason other spells are better in those slots at high level yet, or are we still running of the you can't tell me what to do platform?

Suggestion (heightened) is better than Haste if the sorcerer cannot fit in Mass Suggestion in the level 6 spell slots. Example of an acid savant level 6 list:

Acid Fog, Flesh to Stone, Circle of Death (its too good a debuff spell to not carry), Disintegrate. (Greater Heroism with scrolls), and if Warforged, they also have to drop Circle of Death for Recronstruct; and take Suggestion at level 3, which means either no Haste or no Rage.

Halt Undead (heightened) is better than Haste in high level or epic quests where it is undead heavy like Black Loch, Crystal Cove or Wizard King, Necropolis 4 quests.

[varusso]

Suggestion (heightened) is better than Haste if the sorcerer cannot fit in Mass Suggestion in the level 6 spell slots. Example of an acid savant level 6 list:

Acid Fog, Flesh to Stone, Circle of Death (its too good a debuff spell to not carry), Disintegrate. (Greater Heroism with scrolls), and if Warforged, they also have to drop Circle of Death for Recronstruct; and take Suggestion at level 3, which means either no Haste or no Rage.

Halt Undead (heightened) is better than Haste in high level or epic quests where it is undead heavy like Black Loch, Crystal Cove or Wizard King.

Once you get high enough in level, Mass Charm (or Mass Hold) replaces Mass Suggestion. Suggestion is single-target; it doesnt really "replace" mass suggestion; its more of a "make do" spell.

Even heightened, Halt Undead is a poor substitute for DPS on most sorcs -- it is highly unlikely that the sorc will have a high enough DC to reliably land it in high-level content. If they are a necro-spec (which is something of a flavor build -- most go for straight DPS) this is more viable.

Sidenote: Circle of Death and Undeath to Death are actually very good spells now that the HD cap was removed with u9. Too bad they are in that overcrowded lvl 6 spot. Good thing rage and haste arent lvl 6, or this might be a completely different conversation, eh?

[phillymiket]

Suggestion (heightened) is better than Haste if the sorcerer cannot fit in Mass Suggestion in the level 6 spell slots. Example of an acid savant level 6 list:

Acid Fog, Flesh to Stone, Circle of Death (its too good a debuff spell to not carry), Disintegrate. (Greater Heroism with scrolls), and if Warforged, they also have to drop Circle of Death for Recronstruct; and take Suggestion at level 3, which means either no Haste or no Rage.

Halt Undead (heightened) is better than Haste in high level or epic quests where it is undead heavy like Black Loch, Crystal Cove or Wizard King, Necropolis 4 quests.

Ok. Halt Undead (maybe you carry it because you are farming wiz king ATM)
Suggestion. (don't agree with it but w/e)

That leaves two doesn't it?

Haste and Displacement? (would be my choice if for some strange reason (to me) I choose suggestion)
Haste and Rage?

Would you really take Displacement and Rage and forgo Haste?

[Tyrande]

Ok. Halt Undead (maybe you carry it because you are farming wiz king ATM)
Suggestion. (don't agree with it but w/e)

That leaves two doesn't it?

Haste and Displacement? (would be my choice if for some strange reason (to me) I choose suggestion)
Haste and Rage?

Would you really take Displacement and Rage and forgo Haste?

The two left one of them has to be a DPS spell, in this case of the discussion, that would be acid blast. That leaves one. It will either be displacement, rage or haste, but not all 3.

[Aashrym]

Suggestion (heightened) is better than Haste if the sorcerer cannot fit in Mass Suggestion in the level 6 spell slots. Example of an acid savant level 6 list:

Acid Fog, Flesh to Stone, Circle of Death (its too good a debuff spell to not carry), Disintegrate. (Greater Heroism with scrolls), and if Warforged, they also have to drop Circle of Death for Recronstruct; and take Suggestion at level 3, which means either no Haste or no Rage.

Halt Undead (heightened) is better than Haste in high level or epic quests where it is undead heavy like Black Loch, Crystal Cove or Wizard King, Necropolis 4 quests.

Undeath to death and mass suggestion/charm are other options. Even then the sorc still has a 1 spare slot for either suggestion or halt undead if he wants it. Dominate monster is also an option if the sorc insists on a single target high DC spell like that.

There is no 'greater haste' or 'improved rage' spell to use instead.

4th and 6th level slots are tight, but there are still options. I will say that this is definitely one of the better replies.

[Tyrande]

Once you get high enough in level, Mass Charm (or Mass Hold) replaces Mass Suggestion. Suggestion is single-target; it doesnt really "replace" mass suggestion; its more of a "make do" spell.

Sorry, has to /disagree here.

Mass Hold does not replace Mass Suggestion. Holding and Charming are different things. Mass Charm (Mass Hold) is a bad spell because the monsters roll saves every couple of seconds. Suggestion does not. Mass Hold is also a bad spell now since it is nerfed.

Also, there are better use for level 8 and 9 spell slots,

Level 8: Otto's Irresistible Dance, Polar Ray and Symbol of Death.

Level 9: Energy Drain, Wail of the Banshee, Power Word: Kill.

So, no room for Mass Charm Monster or Hold Monster, Mass.

Even heightened, Halt Undead is a poor substitute for DPS on most sorcs -- it is highly unlikely that the sorc will have a high enough DC to reliably land it in high-level content. If they are a necro-spec (which is something of a flavor build -- most go for straight DPS) this is more viable.

Sidenote: Circle of Death and Undeath to Death [...]

Why is it a poor substitute if they spec for it? Supposedly they have three wizard and three FvS past lives and have enough spell penetration. They could use the two free feats now for spell focus: necromancy and greater spell focus: necromancy and use either The Staff of the Petitioner from Abbot or the Epic Staff of Inner Sight from desert; or the Epic Spectacles of Spirit Sight from desert.

[varusso]

Sorry, has to /disagree here.

Mass Hold does not replace Mass Suggestion. Holding and Charming are different things. Mass Charm is a bad spell because the monsters roll saves every couple of seconds. Suggestion does not.

Also, there are better use for level 8 and 9 spell slots,

Level 8: Otto's Irresistible Dance, Polar Ray and Symbol of Death.

Level 9: Energy Drain, Wail of the Banshee, Power Word: Kill.

So, no room for Mass Charm Monster or Hold Monster, Mass.



Why is it a poor substitute if they spec for it? Supposedly they have three wizard and three FvS past lives and have enough spell penetration. They could use the two free feats now for spell focus: necromancy and greater spell focus: necromancy and use either The Staff of the Petitioner from Abbot or the Epic Staff of Inner Sight from desert.

I know that mass hold and mass charm work differently. The point is is you cant fit mass charm in, you can use mass hold.
Mobs may get more saves on Mass Charm than Mass Suggestion, but MC also has a longer base duration than MS. If your DCs are high enough to be using these spells constantly and consistently in the first place, then they should be high enough to not significantly worry about those extra saves. MC will statistically last longer than MS. Both trump regular Suggestion, unless your goal is to use a single-target charm to gather the mobs (which works excellent BTW )

Correct me if I am wrong...but Symbol of Death is JUST a negative energy DPS not an actual death spell, right? I havent looked at it since the revamp in u9. Thats not really all that attractive with so many other DPS spells available. At least not on a non-PM toon.

PWK: FOD does this job. Since we are assuming heighten, the DC is the same. On a wizzie, the cooldown on FOD is quite manageable and doesnt need another single-target spell to cycle through, especially if you are slotting circle of death and wail already. On a sorc, the cooldown is even less, so the second spell to cycle really doesnt seem like a necessity.

And BTW, I believe I specifically said that Halt Undead was more viable if the sorc was specced for it. It is, however, more common for a sorc to spec damage first (as indicated by the use of earth savant in the same example), and then the more common secondary is enchantment -- so those charms and holds will land. With the removal of blanket immunities in epic, though, necro is seeing a nice upsurge.

[JohnnyDangerously]

I

I disagree. If a person answered you that it is there character and they don't want to carry haste but rather some other spell then the question has been answered. They have provided you with a VALID reason as to why! Just because you or others dislike the answer that doesn't give you the right to dismiss it.

You feel that having haste and/or rage is better than any other choice...fine. You will not get any argument from me because I tend to agree with this and I do carry both on my sorc. It doesn't mean that I'm going to cast it especially when I have peoply whining over the mic that they NEED it. Having those buffs are a nice convenience but nothing more. Not having them won't make or break a quest. As for those people that are arguing time and efficiency...this is a game not work.

I'm just mainly playing devil's advocate here and to be honest I find the people who are coming down on the people who don't have haste and/or rage to be more out of line.

This is how everyone should feel. To not have haste and rage is in no way shape or form going to cause serious problems in any quest (as long your doing it right). To say an arcane is selfish for not carrying these two spells is also wrong. Think about it "you are very selfish for not carrying haste and rage. No matter how well you play along with the party, without these you are selfish and useless". Does that sound okay to anyone? No its rediculous. Yes they are very beneficial, but so what if they are not there. When you finish the quest do you say "well that was a complete waste of time because you didnt haste or rage us". No you say gj and move (or you should say this. If not your not being a good team player". Great advice is always welcome but to truly be upset when your not being hasted by the arcane is bs.

If you carry pots use em. If the arcane does it then yay. In the end your supposed to have fun. If not having these spells casted on you makes you not have fun then dont play.

[varusso]

I
This is how everyone should feel. To not have haste and rage is in no way shape or form going to cause serious problems in any quest (as long your doing it right). To say an arcane is selfish for not carrying these two spells is also wrong. Think about it "you are very selfish for not carrying haste and rage. No matter how well you play along with the party, without these you are selfish and useless". Does that sound okay to anyone? No its rediculous. Yes they are very beneficial, but so what if they are not there. When you finish the quest do you say "well that was a complete waste of time because you didnt haste or rage us". No you say gj and move (or you should say this. If not your not being a good team player". Great advice is always welcome but to truly be upset when your not being hasted by the arcane is bs.

*Anyone that thinks an arcane cant contribute in other ways than just rage/haste needs to learn how to play an arcane.
*Anyone that thinks an arcane cant contribute in those other manners and STILL cast rage/haste needs to learn how to play an arcane.

If you carry pots use em. If the arcane does it then yay. In the end your supposed to have fun. If not having these spells casted on you makes you not have fun then dont play.

*If being asked to rage/haste as an arcane makes you not have fun, then dont play an arcane.
*If being asked to bring certain things to the table while in a group (on ANY class), then dont group.

[KillEveryone]

f being asked to rage/haste as an arcane makes you not have fun, then dont play an arcane.

But I don't want to carry haste and rage yet you seem to insist that I carry it.

Why do I have to conform to your view on my character?

[Aashrym]

Sorry, has to /disagree here.

Mass Hold does not replace Mass Suggestion. Holding and Charming are different things. Mass Charm (Mass Hold) is a bad spell because the monsters roll saves every couple of seconds. Suggestion does not. Mass Hold is also a bad spell now since it is nerfed.

Also, there are better use for level 8 and 9 spell slots,

Level 8: Otto's Irresistible Dance, Polar Ray and Symbol of Death.

Level 9: Energy Drain, Wail of the Banshee, Power Word: Kill.

So, no room for Mass Charm Monster or Hold Monster, Mass.



Why is it a poor substitute if they spec for it? Supposedly they have three wizard and three FvS past lives and have enough spell penetration. They could use the two free feats now for spell focus: necromancy and greater spell focus: necromancy and use either The Staff of the Petitioner from Abbot or the Epic Staff of Inner Sight from desert; or the Epic Spectacles of Spirit Sight from desert.

So are you trying to run death spells, enchantments, and direct damage? That does sound like a heavy load, possibly stretched thin, maybe doable. I play my wizzie that way but I'm more focused on the sorc. Some CC spells and direct damage.

Of course I'm still usually on the bards.

Edit: I do carry symbol of death and energy drain.

[Vellrad]

I know that mass hold and mass charm work differently. The point is is you cant fit mass charm in, you can use mass hold.
Mobs may get more saves on Mass Charm than Mass Suggestion, but MC also has a longer base duration than MS. If your DCs are high enough to be using these spells constantly and consistently in the first place, then they should be high enough to not significantly worry about those extra saves. MC will statistically last longer than MS. Both trump regular Suggestion, unless your goal is to use a single-target charm to gather the mobs (which works excellent BTW )

Correct me if I am wrong...but Symbol of Death is JUST a negative energy DPS not an actual death spell, right? I havent looked at it since the revamp in u9. Thats not really all that attractive with so many other DPS spells available. At least not on a non-PM toon.

PWK: FOD does this job. Since we are assuming heighten, the DC is the same. On a wizzie, the cooldown on FOD is quite manageable and doesnt need another single-target spell to cycle through, especially if you are slotting circle of death and wail already. On a sorc, the cooldown is even less, so the second spell to cycle really doesnt seem like a necessity.

And BTW, I believe I specifically said that Halt Undead was more viable if the sorc was specced for it. It is, however, more common for a sorc to spec damage first (as indicated by the use of earth savant in the same example), and then the more common secondary is enchantment -- so those charms and holds will land. With the removal of blanket immunities in epic, though, necro is seeing a nice upsurge.

PWK is no save instakill. Only bosses, raid bosses and epic mini bosses (aka red/purple orange from epic default named) are immune, and target may be saved only by SR.
Symbol of death is draining levels on each reenty. Get aggro, kite mobs through it (or even better through 2 if there are 2 casters with this spell loaded) and watch their saves and max HP go down, even by half, if you kite good.

[varusso]

PWK is no save instakill. Only bosses, raid bosses and epic mini bosses (aka red/purple orange from epic default named) are immune, and target may be saved only by SR.
Symbol of death is draining levels on each reenty. Get aggro, kite mobs through it (or even better through 2 if there are 2 casters with this spell loaded) and watch their saves and max HP go down, even by half, if you kite good.

See this is the very reason why I havent bothered with SoD -- the description doesnt actually say what it does. Its definitely worth another look -- though I generally prefer to just kill them outright

Yeah, I get that the PWK is a virtual guarantee (like irresistable dance), but my FOD is almost a guarantee by itself -- it is rarely saved on (I am also necro specced on the toons that use it alot ). Oddly enough, it actually fails LESS than Wail, even unheightened

[JohnnyDangerously]

J

*Anyone that thinks an arcane cant contribute in other ways than just rage/haste needs to learn how to play an arcane.
*Anyone that thinks an arcane cant contribute in those other manners and STILL cast rage/haste needs to learn how to play an arcane.

*If being asked to rage/haste as an arcane makes you not have fun, then dont play an arcane.
*If being asked to bring certain things to the table while in a group (on ANY class), then dont group.

Bring certain things to the table by whose standards? One without rage and haste should solo everything because they dont know how to play an arcane? Why are we given the option of selecting spells? Can people not select the ones they wish without getting hassled about it. If you dont ask them if they have it before they join then why get bent out of shape when they dont have it? If they clearly play well and the quest runs fine without then why insist that all arcanes must carry it? Sure its nice and any good arcane should carry it.

But why is it so important that when it happens that they dont have it, someone needs to start a forum insisting that all arcanes must follow the same guidelines? I mean lets just throw originality and freedom of choice out the window. The you must play how everyone else plays attitude is what pushes people away from the game. Not being able to play how you want without being told your wrong because thats not how everyone else does it is wrong in itself.

[phillymiket]

Supposedly they have three wizard and three FvS past lives and have enough spell penetration. They could use the two free feats now for spell focus: necromancy and greater spell focus: necromancy and use either The Staff of the Petitioner from Abbot or the Epic Staff of Inner Sight from desert; or the Epic Spectacles of Spirit Sight from desert.

Ok, so we have a sorc with three FVS and three Wizard past lives and Epic gear who is necromancy, enchantment and DPS speced and doesn't want to replace those third level spells with other viable substitutes and who levels through TRs but doesn't use Haste to speed the XP grind runs.

That is a very small box we have created.

What percent of the population fits that mold?

The best we have is a very unlikely situation. 99.99% or more of the casters won't fit this situation and it could be easily argued that Haste and Displacement (over suggestion or Halt Undead) are the better choices for even that highly unlikely caster and even that caster still has a third level spell free that they could use for Haste.

I will say that this is definitely one of the better replies.

The fact that it is the best reply thus far says less about the reply and more about the lack of an argument for not having Haste, though I thank Tyrande and +1 him for at least putting out there the spells he would choose instead to be mulled over by those that don't share his view.

[varusso]

J

Bring certain things to the table by whose standards? One without rage and haste should solo everything because they dont know how to play an arcane? Why are we given the option of selecting spells? Can people not select the ones they wish without getting hassled about it. If you dont ask them if they have it before they join then why get bent out of shape when they dont have it? If they clearly play well and the quest runs fine without then why insist that all arcanes must carry it? Sure its nice and any good arcane should carry it.

But why is it so important that when it happens that they dont have it, someone needs to start a forum insisting that all arcanes must follow the same guidelines? I mean lets just throw originality and freedom of choice out the window. The you must play how everyone else plays attitude is what pushes people away from the game. Not being able to play how you want without being told your wrong because thats not how everyone else does it is wrong in itself.

These have all been addressed multiple times, in this thread alone. But here it is one last time:

The STANDARD is, by definition what the majority of the playerbase expects. When it is the STANDARD, you shouldnt need to "interview" every single player that joins your group. The onus is on THAT player to either bring the standard package or tell the group/party leader BEFORE it becomes an issue. New players get a bi; anyone expecting them to know what is expected is just being a jerk. Its up to US to educate the -- hence the very nature of threads such as these, as well as polite advice in-game. You can rail all you like against it being the standard, but fact is, it IS the standard. "My toon, my choice, suck a pot if you dont like it" is NOT the accepted standard of conduct in a group. Group > individual is the accepted standard. Individualistic attitudes at the expense of the group are more apt to get you blacklisted than anything else. That is NOT the same thing as "you cant play your toon the way you want". You can play however you choose, but if you are not providing what a group wants, they have just as much right to reject you as you have to object to being told what you "should do" in a group.

Of course you are just going to ignore all of this just as you have each time it has been laid out for you in the previous posts. So I will lay it out quite simply: You do whatever you like in the game, choose whatever spells you want, on whatever type of toon you want. When you build up a rep as the guy who doesnt bring the right stuff to the group, and you start getting declines because of it, you will have no one else to blame. And no thats not OTHER people being elitist jerks. That is them choosing not to group with you, because you chose not to conform to the group needs, rather than your own. That is them exercising the same right not to play with YOU that you have to not play with THEM for "trying to force you into a cookie cutter role".

[Snapdragoon]

as an arcane caster from 1 to 20, its my main, my favorite character.

i always keep the group hasted
i always keep the group raged
i always pass out GH, FR, Blur, etc. when asked

to not do so would not only reflect poorly on myself, but lead to less overall output per SP spent from the rest of the group i am with. if you dont want to haste the group, dont group.

[JohnnyDangerously]

These have all been addressed multiple times, in this thread alone. But here it is one last time:

The STANDARD is, by definition what the majority of the playerbase expects. When it is the STANDARD, you shouldnt need to "interview" every single player that joins your group. The onus is on THAT player to either bring the standard package or tell the group/party leader BEFORE it becomes an issue. New players get a bi; anyone expecting them to know what is expected is just being a jerk. Its up to US to educate the -- hence the very nature of threads such as these, as well as polite advice in-game. You can rail all you like against it being the standard, but fact is, it IS the standard. "My toon, my choice, suck a pot if you dont like it" is NOT the accepted standard of conduct in a group. Group > individual is the accepted standard. Individualistic attitudes at the expense of the group are more apt to get you blacklisted than anything else. That is NOT the same thing as "you cant play your toon the way you want". You can play however you choose, but if you are not providing what a group wants, they have just as much right to reject you as you have to object to being told what you "should do" in a group.

Of course you are just going to ignore all of this just as you have each time it has been laid out for you in the previous posts. So I will lay it out quite simply: You do whatever you like in the game, choose whatever spells you want, on whatever type of toon you want. When you build up a rep as the guy who doesnt bring the right stuff to the group, and you start getting declines because of it, you will have no one else to blame. And no thats not OTHER people being elitist jerks. That is them choosing not to group with you, because you chose not to conform to the group needs, rather than your own. That is them exercising the same right not to play with YOU that you have to not play with THEM for "trying to force you into a cookie cutter role".

The whole problem is that it actually becomes an "issue" when someone doesn't carry the buffs that "you" want, because in the elitist's eyes its all or nothing. Yes people "should" carry these spells but for it to be such a big deal that they get "blacklisted" based on their lack of two buffs even though they may be one of the best team players out there. Especially when alot of people at that lvl carry the pots, and alot dont mind drinkin them.

I personally love using haste and rage. It's a must have for me. Do I get mad when someone doesnt and im not on my arcane? No because in the end I am here to have fun regardless of which buffs others bring to the table. To alot of us the game is not about how fast we can speed through it, its about enjoying the game and playing with the accepting friendly people.

[varusso]

The whole problem is that it actually becomes an "issue" when someone doesn't carry the buffs that "you" want, because in the elitist's eyes its all or nothing. Yes people "should" carry these spells but for it to be such a big deal that they get "blacklisted" based on their lack of two buffs even though they may be one of the best team players out there. Especially when alot of people at that lvl carry the pots, and alot dont mind drinkin them.

I personally love using haste and rage. It's a must have for me. Do I get mad when someone doesnt and im not on my arcane? No because in the end I am here to have fun regardless of which buffs others bring to the table. To alot of us the game is not about how fast we can speed through it, its about enjoying the game and playing with the accepting friendly people.

Its not elitist to expect people to carry standard things. Its elitist to expect everyone to have ~700 HP, ~4000 SP, 100% fort, multiple GS and raid gear, every conceivable situational spell/scroll/pot/wand in the game, and know every single quest right down to the pixel, with perfect completion of every single part in record time, one-shotting every boss. THATS elitist.

Expecting arcanes to carry basic staple spells is a far far cry from that -- as any true elitist will tell you.

The folks that carry rage/haste pots are generally the ones who
(1) Use them to solo, when they cant cast them themselves -- solo is already slower than a well-oiled group. The difference here is having it on a toon that cant cast it, as opposed to not having it at all, when they are the only person in the group.
(2) They are tired of players who just dont get it. Rather than argue with someone who stubbornly insists that their spell choices are the optimal, they just chug the pots and go -- accepting the fact that it is a subpar choice compared to an arcane that COULD be casting them instead. They also use them for when they are the bonehead that didnt group up for the "good stuff" rather than pestering the arcane.
(3) They arent really in the group for the GROUP itself. The group is a means to an end -- namely completing a quest they have difficulty soloing, or it just takes too long to solo. They dont care about you, and you probably dont care about them. Theres a pretty good chance they resist all attempts at socializing during the quest and simply drive forward. Experience has taught them that the "lesser people" arent worth talking to; instead, they are on Vent, talking to their friends about this crappy PUG they are in, and how thank god they only have to do this quest ONCE. These types really arent what you would call "grouping types", and you probably enjoy their company about as much as they enjoy yours. You probably will complete the quest in record time, but its doubtful it will be in any way enjoyable for anyone.

Dunno about you, but thats not what i usually look for in a group. There are times when the group IS just an ends to a means, but I prefer SOME degree of socialization while running boring quest X for the 100th time. Part of that is a group that works well together and helps each other, and fills in the gaps where each others' toons are lacking. That includes, but by NO means is limited to red and green arcane love.

[mobrien316]

And no thats not OTHER people being elitist jerks.

I disagree.

If there are players who cannot or will not judge other players based on their overall play, but solely on whether they carry a specific buff and/or cast that buff early/often enough, they are being elitist.

Elitism = The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.

i.e. - If a person plays an arcane character and either doesn't carry Haste/Rage/whatever or doesn't cast it early enough or often enough, they are obviously not part of the elite "uber" class of "superior" players (apparently defined as 'those who confom to the accepted builds because that's what everyone expects them to do and to do otherwise is to simply show their selfishness and lack of intelligence to everyone else') and they will not be permitted to participate in groups with other "superior" players.

If you were basing your judgment on something substantial, rather than your perception of what spells/skills/gear/feats/whatever a "good" player should have, I don't think it would be elitism. If you "shunned" players who have demonstrated, via their play style in an actual quest or raid, that they are lousy players, that would be reasonable. Booting/squelching/banning for life players who don't conform to specific "cookie cutter" builds, without bothering to first see if they are good players or not, is elitism.

Everyone is, of course, free to be as elitist as they wish to be. I don't think it advances the game or makes it any more fun for anyone if we try to force the game down a road where everyone either conforms to specific builds with specific weapons/buffs/spells/skills/whatever or faces being blacklisted as stupid or selfish players.