PSA Haste does not waste a valuable spell slot

[grodon9999]

It happens more than your willing to admit. Besides it doesn't even take something out of the ordinary happening. Just because you have haste doesn't guarrantee your to hit rolls, your damage, etc. Too many variables my friend...therefore...NO GUARRANTEE.

Now the last statement well that is a bit derogatory towards a player that doesn't want to cast haste because some melee is whining.

Okay, the pain-chip comment was supposed to be funny, sorry if it wasn't.

It's just best to play with like-minded people. I expect casters to have certain spells for certain jobs and I don't consider that an unreasonable expectation.

[phillymiket]

Can't be shy with haste if it isn't loaded. And if you noticed, haste was included.

What I gave was a generic example of buffing, and yes, some players DO demand all of that. I tend to toss out only what makes sense.

I'm just pointing out that you aren't painting a realistic picture.

You list every spell under the sun. Sure some may ask for stuff they don't need but that's when you, the arcane knowledgeable of his or her craft, let them know that they don't need all of that. You list stuff that people cast with wands (stoneskin) stuff that divines often cast (prot) and stuff that's not needed (every resist and jump).
Of course the person who does that will run out of SP.
Realistically, it's a fraction of that.

You list the spells available at third level and add things like "I'm lazy and never switched out protection for mass protection so that's one down". Again, not a realistic argument.
Get your spell book in order.
Of the spells listed you can take Haste, Rage, Displacement and have one left from that list and still have a powerful and diverse spell list. Your party will be much stronger if you got around to switching out redundant spells and trusted the divine to cast protection from evil in a command-heavy quest, for example, and Hasted the party so they can run to and defeat the enemy caster before he commands you.

[Missing_Minds]

It's just best to play with like-minded people. I expect casters to have certain spells for certain jobs and I don't consider that an unreasonable expectation.

From like minded? No, I'd say that is perfectly reasonable.

[Aashrym]

We're entering the realm of chances so unlikely, that I tend to leave it to loonies calling themselves philosophers...

But riddle me this: when you're hungry, does eating a sandwich guarantees you'll be less hungry?

It can if you know how to make a good sandwich. Not eating a sandwich or reasonable alternative means you WILL stay hungry tho.

[varusso]

Sorry Varusso it isn't guarranteed. There are variable outside the control of the player that will and can affect the outcome. All it takes is one failed save at a key moment in time to the healer and that can me the difference between a quick smooth run and a complete wipe. Haste and rage won't mean squat in that type of situation and therefore I still maintain that while helpful they aren't a guarrantee.

Straw man. That same problem would occur with or without rage/haste. WITH rage/haste, the rest of the quest is still faster. As said, if both runs are the SAME other than rage/haste, the rage and haste run WOULD be faster. Actually that was just with haste. Rage only makes it even more better

First of all I don't preach anything. Self sufficiency is what I practice.

AHEM:

Ah expectations....I prefer not to and then be mildly surprised. I preach self sufficiency everything else is just gravy.

I understand your position and can respect it.

I was referencing a direct quote from you.

I have no responsibility to educate a moron. I signed no agreement that stated I had to. I would agree that it MIGHT be in my best interest to educate a moron but I tend to always recall the old saying: "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink". After almost 5 years I've come across too many thirsty horses.

Like i said, the word "responsibility" is a bad one, but you know what i mean.

[Ironforge_Clan]

Okay, the pain-chip comment was supposed to be funny, sorry if it wasn't.

Aww I thought it was supposed to hurt my feelings...now I'm really mad!

It's just best to play with like-minded people. I expect casters to have certain spells for certain jobs and I don't consider that an unreasonable expectation.

I agree. It improves the entertainment value for everyone involved. I just check my expectations at the load screen and roll with the flow which seems to be a bit foreign for a few of the thread's contributors.

[grodon9999]

When tossed at the right times, during low levels, I can not dissagree. It can. But depending on the mobs a single fireball could also do the same. There are many ways to reach the same objective. A large difference of opinion comes from the fact that some builds have more options than others. (A fact I'm certain you are aware of)

Even in PnP a single fireball couldn't do nearly as much damage as a haste in the same period of time.

As for the trash, I was refering to trash found in the 18-20 levels stated in the OP. Haste or not, the trash dies fast. I'm also thinking of parties that are heavy on the melee dps. Parties that are light on the melee dps, haste makes a bigger difference. Or so it has seemed with my observations.

The OP was talking about shroud, where those portal and trash mobs have thousands of HP. Haste makes a huge difference here.

[Missing_Minds]

I'm just pointing out that you aren't painting a realistic picture.

You list the spells available at third level and add things like "I'm lazy and never switched out protection for mass protection so that's one down". Again, not a realistic argument.
Get your spell book in order.

If I painted a realistic picture you and others would still nit pick it for personal choices, so what is your point? Realistically I could get get back maybe about 200-300 of it. On a sorc it is less of an issue compared to that of a wizard. The issue remains.

I've got a sorc, what spellbook?

For level 7 I've got finger, dancing sphere, and waves of exhaustion.
For level 5 I've got cloudkill, teleport, waves of fatigue.

I could swap waves of fatigue out for protect from elements to make room for rage, but then again you typically only need Protect from one type of element, and break enchantment could be highly useful to get rid of debuffs. I've been going back and forth on that one for a while.

[varusso]

@varusso - I find it amusing that you are tauting a STANDARD for Sorcerers during a time when Sorcerers are still experimenting with a new PrE, weighing and balancing out what is beneficial to success and what is a waste. I would say that many have posted here have voiced their opionion that Haste and Rage are very beneficial. As I pointed out in one of my earler posts - a wider divergance between Sorcerer and Wizard is occuring only time will tell how large this gap will become. It may just mean that the player base as a whole will need to change how we precieve a class and the roles it can/will fill.

We've been playing with the changes on Live long enough, and even longer on Lamma, to know how they affect our toons. Nothing in the changes have made rage and haste less beneficial, even on a sorc. The changes really just fine-tuned the sorc's already perceived role as magical DPS, because it gave them more choices and cheaper SLAs vs spells to draw upon (and the ability to cycle between spells and SLAs). None of the changes really changed the lvl 3 slots at higher lvls (IE: 18 when the sorc has their T3 SLAs and has had 4 spell slots since lvl 11).

No one is actually contending that there are BETTER choices on lvl 3 spells; they only contend that no one can FORCE them to slot certain spells -- which no one is trying to do. The argument has always been that there are no BETTER spells to slot instead (in terms of game mechanics and overall benefits). No one has yet refuted THAT.

[Missing_Minds]

Even in PnP a single fireball couldn't do nearly as much damage as a haste in the same period of time.

The OP was talking about shroud, where those portal and trash mobs have thousands of HP. Haste makes a huge difference here.

Depends on how you want to quantify damage in PnP, let alone what form of haste you are talking about.

A huge difference, huh? What is this quantifiable difference? Take your high powered group into shroud then. Do part 1 without haste timed. Then do it again with the same buffs, characters, etc. and haste it. Time it.

What is this huge difference in time? I am seriously curious. This is a setup where their is little worry about mobs killing you (so far as healing) and the prime targets have 100% fortification. Saddly, to keep things roughly the same, I'd have to say no slayer arrows.

[Missing_Minds]

No one is actually contending that there are BETTER choices on lvl 3 spells; they only contend that no one can FORCE them to slot certain spells -- which no one is trying to do.

Comments from players where upon they have stated if they don't have rage/haste they are getting blacklisted seems to me that they are trying to force them to slot in spells.

You can say "oh no, that is just my choice..." right. The end result really is they want those spells on everyone, and will do what little they can to enforce that.

[phillymiket]

If I painted a realistic picture you and others would still nit pick it for personal choices,

No, I wouldn't. You should still argue realistically regardless of whether others arguments are not.

so what is your point?

That you are overstating your case.

Realistically I could get get back maybe about 200-300 of it. On a sorc it is less of an issue compared to that of a wizard. The issue remains.

Personally, I have a arch-mage pirate hat for my casters that I switch out after buffing.
On my sorc I usually have a full SP bar after buffing and sometime waste SP switching out the arch-mage. Maybe I under-buff but no one has complained. (wizard usually it cuts into my non-arch-maged SP)

I've got a sorc, what spellbook?

Ok, spell list.
You know what I mean.
Who's nitpicking now?

For level 7 I've got finger, dancing sphere, and waves of exhaustion.
For level 5 I've got cloudkill, teleport, waves of fatigue.

I could swap waves of fatigue out for protect from elements to make room for rage, but then again you typically only need Protect from one type of element, and break enchantment could be highly useful to get rid of debuffs. I've been going back and forth on that one for a while.

Yeah, those levels are a challenge. So much good stuff.

I use teleport scrolls and just don't carry protection. (only occasionally have I missed it)
Almost all divines seem to cast it. (how many times when buffing to you hear the Whoosh of mass-protection being cast two or even three times?)

[MindCake]

For level 5 I've got cloudkill, teleport, waves of fatigue.

O_@!
No biting cold/electric surge? Seriously, get at least one of them! Do your part to dps down the bosses!

[Missing_Minds]

Personally, I have a arch-mage pirate hat for my casters that I switch out after buffing.

Who's nitpicking now?

Yeah, those levels are a challenge. So much good stuff.

I use teleport scrolls and just don't carry protection. (only occasionally have I missed it)
Almost all divines seem to cast it. (how many times when buffing to you hear the Whoosh of mass-protection being cast two or even three times?)

Then that is 200 sp you have "used". Because you started with it, I would count it.

I figured it was my turn to nitpick.

I tend to teleport around a lot. I'm lazy like that. Any spell that I use a lot or find very useful I tend to take. Hence why whenever I think about popping out Pro from Energy I don't because if I get bored, I'll go solo and it is handy to have. What is probably going to end up happening is that I'll swap out fatigue for prot elements and call it good....

Actually, any one know if the prot elements as cast by a savant still gains/suffers on the particular elements?

[Missing_Minds]

O_@!
No biting cold/electric surge? Seriously, get at least one of them! Do your part to dps down the bosses!

Earth force savant, let alone I'm still playing around to figure out what is most fun for me. I'll get there when I get there. Having several DoTs does appeal. Heck, that will probalby happen with Acolyte of the skin knowing my luck. Man that will be enhancment expensive. *shrugs*

[varusso]

Comments from players where upon they have stated if they don't have rage/haste they are getting blacklisted seems to me that they are trying to force them to slot in spells.

You can say "oh no, that is just my choice..." right. The end result really is they want those spells on everyone, and will do what little they can to enforce that.

If you recruit a player to fill a certain role in your group, but they cant or wont fill that role, why would you ever add them for that role again? Just as you have the right to choose not to group with "needy" players who "pigeonhole' you into a certain role, those players have a right not to group with you for failing in that role. That whole "play with people who play your way" thing goes both ways.

An arcane that doesnt pack rage and haste is treated as a 'warning sign' that the arcane is likely subpar in other ways -- in the same way that a rogue who cant do traps or a white hat that cant/wont heal the party is. If you dont WANT to be the toon that does these things, why would YOU want to be in the group with the folks who expect you to do so? Chances are the rest of the party will feel the same way they do, so nothing good will come of it.

I agree that blacklisting can in some ways be seen as a way of bullying someone into your own point of view. But more to the point, it is a way of avoiding ever having the same conflict with the same player (toon) ever again. It benefits you both.

[MindCake]

Earth force savant, let alone I'm still playing around to figure out what is most fun for me. I'll get there when I get there. Having several DoTs does appeal. Heck, that will probalby happen with Acolyte of the skin knowing my luck. Man that will be enhancment expensive. *shrugs*

Then get the ice one, take the first tier in each enhancement, for total of 3 AP.

[phillymiket]

Then that is 200 sp you have "used". Because you started with it, I would count it.

I figured it was my turn to nitpick.

I tend to teleport around a lot. I'm lazy like that. Any spell that I use a lot or find very useful I tend to take. Hence why whenever I think about popping out Pro from Energy I don't because if I get bored, I'll go solo and it is handy to have. What is probably going to end up happening is that I'll swap out fatigue for prot elements and call it good....

Actually, any one know if the prot elements as cast by a savant still gains/suffers on the particular elements?

Don't know about protection as cast by a savant (don't carry it) and yes soloing is when I do miss the protection.

My turn to nitpick the archmage is 400 SP on a sorc and I would switch it out regardless because I don't like to waste the slot on it. My point is that my buffing burden is usually less then 400 SP and I often cast unneeded stuff just to use it up.

I have teleport on my wiz but not sorc and I do miss not teleporting everywhere I want to go so I understand where you are coming from but am not willing to minimize my effectiveness in quests for a convenience between them.

The bottom line is though that you could easily fit in Haste without changing your build one iota.
I seem to recall you saying you do carry Haste though (maybe wrong there don't feel like going back) in which case I still wonder if anyone here actually thinks it's a waste of a spell slot as per the OP or are we just riding a merry-go-round here?

[KoboldKiller]

If you recruit a player to fill a certain role in your group, but they cant or wont fill that role, why would you ever add them for that role again? Just as you have the right to choose not to group with "needy" players who "pigeonhole' you into a certain role, those players have a right not to group with you for failing in that role. That whole "play with people who play your way" thing goes both ways.

An arcane that doesnt pack rage and haste is treated as a 'warning sign' that the arcane is likely subpar in other ways -- in the same way that a rogue who cant do traps or a white hat that cant/wont heal the party is. If you dont WANT to be the toon that does these things, why would YOU want to be in the group with the folks who expect you to do so? Chances are the rest of the party will feel the same way they do, so nothing good will come of it.

I agree that blacklisting can in some ways be seen as a way of bullying someone into your own point of view. But more to the point, it is a way of avoiding ever having the same conflict with the same player (toon) ever again. It benefits you both.

This right here is the mentality that set me off in the first place.

You have ZERO clue what that Sorc was built for unless it's your alt and it could be EXCEPTIONAL at what it was intended to do.

[Ironforge_Clan]

This right here is the mentality that set me off in the first place.

You have ZERO clue what that Sorc was built for unless it's your alt and it could be EXCEPTIONAL at what it was intended to do.

Its the mob mentality rolled up with the "you will play how I want you to play" expectation.