PSA Haste does not waste a valuable spell slot

[varusso]

The desire for certain spells vary by player but it still doesn't matter what spells would be taken.

If they feel they want certain spells at that level, it is still their character.

Haste and rage come in pots.

Actually it DOES matter, since the point of the OP was that there are no DPS spells in lvl 3 that dont have better versions in higher lvl, therefor haste does not take up a slot that is better as a DPS. Fact. The same is true of any of the CC spells in lvl 3 -- with the only real possible exception being halt undead. On a sorc, not likely to be used, and likely to fail if it is.

The other part of the thread is WHY do you think your choice of spells is somehow better than haste. The answer here directly matters based on the question.

Rage has been added, for the same basic reasons as haste.

If the only reasons you can come up with are "my spell, my choice", thats not a reason -- thats a temper tantrum. "Comes in pots" is a fail excuse, as has already been explained.

Here is the crux of it:
I say those who refuse to carry rage and haste (at higher lvls) are being selfish and putting their own wants ahead of the group. regardless of whatever else you may be doing, in THIS case you are being selfish. So either admit that your personal choices for those LVL 3 slots are selfish, or explain how YOUR choices are NOT selfish and benefit the party more, when you have higher lvl spell choices that are better in every respect, and would allow you to slot rage and haste in lvl 3.

"My toon, my spells, my choice, if you dont like it, suck a pot' is a selfish attitude.

[KillEveryone]

Actually it DOES matter,

No. It does not matter.

If you don't want to group with that player, it is your problem.

YOU CANNOT TELL ME WHAT I HAVE TO HAVE ON MY CHARACTER!!!!!!!!

YOU CANNOT TELL ME WHAT I HAVE TO HAVE ON MY CHARACTER!!!!!!!!

YOU CANNOT TELL ME WHAT I HAVE TO HAVE ON MY CHARACTER!!!!!!!!

YOU CANNOT TELL ME WHAT I HAVE TO HAVE ON MY CHARACTER!!!!!!!!

My character.

My account.

My characters slot.

My time invested.

My gear.

My spells.

MY blue bar.

My personal happiness.

MY character.

For YOU to tell ME what I have to have on MY character is selfish so YOU are the one being selfish.

YOU did not invest the time on My character.

YOU did not buy my adventure packs.

YOU did not buy my character slots.

YOU are not the one that geared out MY character.

YOU HAVE DONE NOTHING FOR MY CHARACTER AT ALL.

It is MY character and MY happiness.

I'm here to play the game for MY happiness, not YOURS.

UNTIL YOU PAY FOR MY SUBSCRIPTION WITH REAL MONEY, YOU DO NOT GET TO TELL ME WHAT I HAVE TO DO WITH MY CHARACTER.

Haste and rage come in a pot. If you really, really, really, have to have haste and rage, you...YOU...are the one responsible for that, not the other player.

[Fejj]

No. It does not matter.

If you don't want to group with that player, it is your problem.

YOU CANNOT TELL ME WHAT I HAVE TO HAVE ON MY CHARACTER!!!!!!!!

YOU CANNOT TELL ME WHAT I HAVE TO HAVE ON MY CHARACTER!!!!!!!!

YOU CANNOT TELL ME WHAT I HAVE TO HAVE ON MY CHARACTER!!!!!!!!

YOU CANNOT TELL ME WHAT I HAVE TO HAVE ON MY CHARACTER!!!!!!!!

My character.

My account.

My characters slot.

My time invested.

My gear.

My spells.

MY blue bar.

My personal happiness.

MY character.

For YOU to tell ME what I have to have on MY character is selfish so YOU are the one being selfish.

UNTIL YOU PAY FOR MY SUBSCRIPTION WITH REAL MONEY, YOU DO NOT GET TO TELL ME WHAT I HAVE TO DO WITH MY CHARACTER.

Haste and rage come in a pot.

Couldn't have said it better +1

[Flintsen]

With extend gone for many sorcs now haste is less attractive than it was. Blame Turbine.

Most wizards still carry it, bards carry it, and it comes in pots. It's not life or death to have it.

(I still carry both haste and extend on my L20 sorc...but its temping...)

(and has anyone else noticed the trend in the last few weeks for people to start posts saying "PSA" and then go to on to tell other players who to build their characters because Mr superior knows better?)

Maybe I missed something, why is extend gone?

[varusso]

No. It does not matter.

If you don't want to group with that player, it is your problem.

YOU CANNOT TELL ME WHAT I HAVE TO HAVE ON MY CHARACTER!!!!!!!!

YOU CANNOT TELL ME WHAT I HAVE TO HAVE ON MY CHARACTER!!!!!!!!

YOU CANNOT TELL ME WHAT I HAVE TO HAVE ON MY CHARACTER!!!!!!!!

YOU CANNOT TELL ME WHAT I HAVE TO HAVE ON MY CHARACTER!!!!!!!!

My character.

My account.

My characters slot.

My time invested.

My gear.

My spells.

MY blue bar.

My personal happiness.

MY character.

For YOU to tell ME what I have to have on MY character is selfish so YOU are the one being selfish.

YOU did not invest the time on My character.

YOU did not buy my adventure packs.

YOU did not buy my character slots.

YOU are not the one that geared out MY character.

YOU HAVE DONE NOTHING FOR MY CHARACTER AT ALL.

It is MY character and MY happiness.

I'm here to play the game for MY happiness, not YOURS.

UNTIL YOU PAY FOR MY SUBSCRIPTION WITH REAL MONEY, YOU DO NOT GET TO TELL ME WHAT I HAVE TO DO WITH MY CHARACTER.

Haste and rage come in a pot. If you really, really, really, have to have haste and rage, you...YOU...are the one responsible for that, not the other player.

Your temper tantrum only proves my point.

[KillEveryone]

Your temper tantrum only proves my point.

And this just shows how selfish you are.

YOU have NOT given me any REAL MONEY for my adventure packs.

YOU are NOT the one playing MY character.

I'm here for ME, not YOU.

It still is my character.

I'm right and you are wrong.

Deal with it. Suck a haste pot.

[varusso]

Maybe I missed something, why is extend gone?

U9 removed extend from many spells, most notably persistent AOEs and CCs. With this change, Extend has lost alot of its appeal for many casters, given the length of most buffs at cap. Add to that the fact that sorcs now have to have another feat in order to get all of their savant enhancements, and extend becomes the dump feat of choice for alot of them.

[varusso]

And this just shows how selfish you are.

It still is my character.

I'm right and you are wrong.

Deal with it. Suck a haste pot.

Given the fact that I have explained my position, and backed it up, and only asked others to do the same in a polite manner, with your only response being 'ME ME ME ME ME ME". No, I dont think so. Its obvious you just want to throw tantrums and insults, so no point even bothering with you anymore. You have contributed absolutely nothing useful or meaningful to the discussion. Welcome to /ignore.

[KillEveryone]

Given the fact that I have explained my position, and backed it up, and only asked others to do the same in a polite manner, with your only response being 'ME ME ME ME ME ME". No, I dont think so. Its obvious you just want to throw tantrums and insults, so no point even bothering with you anymore. Welcome to /ignore.

Tantrums?

Seriously?

You are only calling it such because you decide you can't win this.

You don't get it.

It is still and always will be my and my character alone.

Face it, you loose this argument.

[Enoach]

Ok, since this thread is focused on sorcerers, this breakdown will be based on sorcerers.
{clip}

• Deep Slumber - Decent AoE CC for low to mid levels. Bear in mind all Undead/Constructs/Elf/Drow are immune to this spell. Available on scrolls.

{clip}

I liked your breakdown, but I do disagree with your level assessment of Deep Slumber. I'm actually finding this useful in Vale, Amarath and IQ which are not low to mid level quests. Not saying its a must have spell, just with the new spell pass it has greater uses then it did when it was Hit Dice limited.

It is a good spell for reducing an incoming horde, use on the back of the group as the melee are hitting the front.

It is a good spell for stopping creatures you don't want killed - think of quests like Slavers and Dust, as it does not include a +50% damage boost while under its effect like the Hold Lines do.

It is a good spell for times when sneaking by is more beneficial than killing everything in sight.

[MindCake]

YOU CANNOT TELL ME WHAT I HAVE TO HAVE ON MY CHARACTER!!!!!!!!

No, I can't tell you.
We can, though, tell the general public (as in a sort of announcement) what spells you are recommended to have.
This isn't for people who have the background to make a conscious decision. You want to play a flavour build that doesn't buff? It's up to you.
This is for the newbs that think "oh I'm awesome DPS sorc with fireball, acid blast, lightning bolt and force missiles, my versality is unmatched!", this thread was to let them know, that no, taking another 3rd level damage spell does not actually improve their DPS, while haste would improve the groups overall DPS and lead faster and easier completions.

My personal happiness.

If telling people to pay 100 plat for something you could have given them for free makes you happy, uh, well, cool for you I guess.

Haste and rage come in a pot.

Fireball comes on wands.

[varusso]

I liked your breakdown, but I do disagree with your level assessment of Deep Slumber. I'm actually finding this useful in Vale, Amarath and IQ which are not low to mid level quests. Not saying its a must have spell, just with the new spell pass it has greater uses then it did when it was Hit Dice limited.

It is a good spell for reducing an incoming horde, use on the back of the group as the melee are hitting the front.

It is a good spell for stopping creatures you don't want killed - think of quests like Slavers and Dust, as it does not include a +50% damage boost while under its effect like the Hold Lines do.

It is a good spell for times when sneaking by is more beneficial than killing everything in sight.

The sleep lines are alot better than many players will give credit, esp with the removed HD cap as you pointed out. But dancing ball does all that on every mob that would be affected by sleep (that I can think of off the top of my head), is persistent (which means it can re-apply when they save), has a higher DC, and doesnt break when you hit the mob. The downside is that dancing ball has a slow cast time -- but you can 'pre-cast' it the majority of times. Sleep is a good choice in lower lvls, but in general DB is better once you have access to it.

[Fejj]

Given the fact that I have explained my position, and backed it up, and only asked others to do the same in a polite manner, with your only response being 'ME ME ME ME ME ME". No, I dont think so. Its obvious you just want to throw tantrums and insults, so no point even bothering with you anymore. You have contributed absolutely nothing useful or meaningful to the discussion. Welcome to /ignore.

Your position is
"Play my way or your being selfish"
"Carry the spells I tell you"
"Buff as I tell you"
"Play the role I pigeonhole you into"

And you accuse someone else of Me, Me, Me, ME - that laughable

Full disclosure - I carry and cast haste / rage / everything else that is "needed" and love playing as a group on my sorc

Now to be useful in the thread - While yes haste is a "must have" spell that is just my opinion. Others may choose differently. If you (or anyone else) thinks they "need" haste at level 20 and has no way to cast it on themselves, your out of luck. Please don't expect others to make characters to suit your lack of resources. Sure 99% of the casters out there carry haste, but for the times you are without, have some way to cast it, and stop telling others how to play their characters.

It is not up to YOU (or others) to choose the spell list for anyone. Deal with it.

[KillEveryone]

No, I can't tell you.
We can, though, tell the general public (as in a sort of announcement) what spells you are recommended to have.
This isn't for people who have the background to make a conscious decision. You want to play a flavour build that doesn't buff? It's up to you.
This is for the newbs that think "oh I'm awesome DPS sorc with fireball, acid blast, lightning bolt and force missiles, my versality is unmatched!", this thread was to let them know, that no, taking another 3rd level damage spell does not actually improve their DPS, while haste would improve the groups overall DPS and lead faster and easier completions.

Fair enough. I'm also pointing out that they can still choose to do with their character that they want to do.

If telling people to pay 100 plat for something you could have given them for free makes you happy, uh, well, cool for you I guess.

So I'm a buff bot now? Seriously? That is not why I'm playing this game and it makes me unhappy. If you really, really, really, really have to have haste, YOU need to make sure you can get it on your own.

If someone else has it, it is just gravy.

Fireball comes on wands.
So you have no problem telling someone they have to pay for wands but you have a total problem with paying for haste pots? Really?

Even still, you can't maximize and empower a fireball from a wand.

Still more, it is my character. I can slot any spell I want and there is nothing you can do about it because it is MY character.

Sky Blue.

[varusso]

Your position is
"Play my way or your being selfish"
"Carry the spells I tell you"
"Buff as I tell you"
"Play the role I pigeonhole you into"

And you accuse someone else of Me, Me, Me, ME - that laughable

Full disclosure - I carry and cast haste / rage / everything else that is "needed" and love playing as a group on my sorc

Now to be useful in the thread - While yes haste is a "must have" spell that is just my opinion. Others may choose differently. If you (or anyone else) thinks they "need" haste at level 20 and has no way to cast it on themselves, your out of luck. Please don't expect others to make characters to suit your lack of resources. Sure 99% of the casters out there carry haste, but for the times you are without, have some way to cast it, and stop telling others how to play their characters.

It is not up to YOU (or others) to choose the spell list for anyone. Deal with it.

No, actually thats not my position.

My position is that these are standard spells expected of an arcane -- expected by the vast majority of the players in the game. The reasons WHY they are expected are as such (and I have provided them multiple times). The chief reason for them is that they facilitate the group as a whole, making the quest easier and quicker, which is the goal of the majority of players in PUGs (those who want MORE challenge tend to solo or pull from a small pool of players for their groups).

The expected attitude is that you give up some of your personal choices when it will benefit the group as a whole. 5-11 players' wants > 1 player's wants. Anyone who doesnt adopt that attitude IS by definition being selfish. If you feel that your personal choice for a lvl 3 spell is somehow MORE beneficial (to the group) than these spells, then explain it. Explain how it is NOT selfish to use that spell instead. If your only response is "my spells, my choice, suck a pot" that *IS* selfish. That in no way benefits the group.

If your contention is that your lvl 3 DPS spell is SO POWERFUL that it outweighs the group benefit of rage and haste, then you are either sorely lacking in understanding of game mechanics, or you are in a group that REALLY sucks in terms of overall performance.

The only exception to this I have seen so far in the thread is the one person who is an earth savant --having the extra acid blast is highly beneficial to them (and to the group) because they dont have alot of higher lvl spell choices for acid. But even carrying the extra acid blast leaves them room for rage, haste, and displacement. So that really isnt a conflict unless they choose yet ANOTHER lvl 3 spell.

The fact is, you can pack both spells on a lvl 11+ sorc, and still have 2 other spell choices to play with. You can bring the spells that a party wants and STILL choose 2 more toys. The question has been asked MANY times -- what spells would you choose instead, and WHY? Childish retorts like "my choice, deal with it" do not in any way contribute positively to the discussion.

[Tyrande]

When I am on my arcane casters I have extended rage and haste; but that is a choice I made. Do I like people telling me what spells to load and what spells to cast and when?

No, and constant reminders (or yelling) can get on people's nerves.

When I am on my non-arcane casters, i.e. melees, divines or ranged; if I am in a group and if the arcane caster(s) cast rage and haste my characters felt gratitude; if they do not have then my characters usually have haste in green steel or other form of toys and rage in pots or toys.

Do I tell what the arcane caster(s) what spells to have and when to cast? No, I do not want to get on people's nerves since I know I have arcane casters myself.

[grodon9999]

No. It does not matter.

If you don't want to group with that player, it is your problem.

YOU CANNOT TELL ME WHAT I HAVE TO HAVE ON MY CHARACTER!!!!!!!!

YOU CANNOT TELL ME WHAT I HAVE TO HAVE ON MY CHARACTER!!!!!!!!

YOU CANNOT TELL ME WHAT I HAVE TO HAVE ON MY CHARACTER!!!!!!!!

YOU CANNOT TELL ME WHAT I HAVE TO HAVE ON MY CHARACTER!!!!!!!!

My character.

My account.

My characters slot.

My time invested.

My gear.

My spells.

MY blue bar.

My personal happiness.

MY character.

For YOU to tell ME what I have to have on MY character is selfish so YOU are the one being selfish.

YOU did not invest the time on My character.

YOU did not buy my adventure packs.

YOU did not buy my character slots.

YOU are not the one that geared out MY character.

YOU HAVE DONE NOTHING FOR MY CHARACTER AT ALL.

It is MY character and MY happiness.

I'm here to play the game for MY happiness, not YOURS.

UNTIL YOU PAY FOR MY SUBSCRIPTION WITH REAL MONEY, YOU DO NOT GET TO TELL ME WHAT I HAVE TO DO WITH MY CHARACTER.

Haste and rage come in a pot. If you really, really, really, have to have haste and rage, you...YOU...are the one responsible for that, not the other player.

When you join my group, you are a pawn to do my bidding. Haste and rage please.

Seriously dude, get a grip

[MindCake]

So I'm a buff bot now? Seriously?

Is a battle cleric dropping a mass cure moderate (centered on himself) and running the aura a healbot? Seriously?
You missed the point completely.

So you have no problem telling someone they have to pay for wands but you have a total problem with paying for haste pots? .

I think it's kinda cute how telling other people to buy potions is the most obvious thing to you, but you flip out at the thought someone would make you buy a wand.
Either way, you missed the point completely.

[Ironforge_Clan]

Given the fact that I have explained my position, and backed it up, and only asked others to do the same in a polite manner, with your only response being 'ME ME ME ME ME ME". No, I dont think so. Its obvious you just want to throw tantrums and insults, so no point even bothering with you anymore. You have contributed absolutely nothing useful or meaningful to the discussion. Welcome to /ignore.

Sorry Varusso you are wrong here. Another player DOES NOT need to provide you with any reason other than "it is my character" to justify what spells they carry. You come off as appearing you are entitled to an answer that YOU will ACCEPT. Get over it and yourself. If another player doesn't want to carry a spell then so be it. That is the end of the argument. Kill doesn't need to provide any more of a reason than he has especially since you have demonstrated that you are unwilling to accept his responses because they don't fit in with what you expect.

[Ironforge_Clan]

When you join my group, you are a pawn to do my bidding. Haste and rage please.

Seriously dude, get a grip

You can ask all you want...getting is a whole different reality.