PSA Haste does not waste a valuable spell slot

[JohnnyDangerously]

If you lower your expectations about how other people play, you will be satisfied more frequently.

If you can make it through a quest without, then why complain when its not there.

[varusso]

I fully agree that any group leader can deny anyone for any reason and expect certain things of those that they do accept. Basically what I am getting at is that if certain things arent required by the group leader then it is unacceptable for other group members to be so demanding. Those are types that I boot from my groups.

I do feel that haste and rage are very important, but I do not base my opinions on how well a person plays with a team based on the spells that they carry.

If a caster who does not carry these stills plays his toon well within a team, then I fully appreciate the contribution that they make. A caster that allows the tank to grab aggro before nuking is an example of a team player. A caster that grabs aggro intentionally and requires more healing than the tank is not a team player even if they have haste.

But heres the thing. The group leader is ALSO only one of 6 (or 12) people. Chances are the other 4 people also want rage and haste, and they are trusting the group leader to build the party with all of the group dynamics in mind. In fact, the more people you have in the group (IE: raid) the more you fail as a party leader if you DONT make sure all the bases are covered. If you have an arcane in a raid party, and everyone else is drinking haste/rage pots, there is a major fail on the part of the PL AND the arcane. Technically, his party, his rules, but there are expectations of the PL as well. Whether or not a given quest/raid CAN be done without a certain class/spell/whatever isnt even the point. Unless the group was formed with the INTENTION of doing an oddball run (like all cleric shroud), then the folks in the party probably expect certain things. Not least among them is an arcane with rage and haste.

The end point, really, is that yes there are other things an arcane can (and should) contribute to any group. But rage and haste are part of that package. You may be a team player and do the rest of your 'job' well in that group, but if you didnt bring the red and green, you failed on that part. There really just is no other lvl 3 spell that is better in more situations to carry than those 2, once you have 4+ lvl 3 slots. The only time I would EVER tell another player to suck a pot when I am playing an arcane would be if they just refused to huddle up for it when i cast it. And if I am too low lvl to slot the spell (needing fireball etc) I carry clickies for strategic use, cos I know its my 'job' to bring the red and green.


EDIT:

If you lower your expectations about how other people play, you will be satisfied more frequently.

If you can make it through a quest without, then why complain when its not there.

You can make it through most quests without healer, a rogue, or a bard. But in a non-BYOH group, the healer is expected to heal. The rogue is always expected to do traps, and the bard is always expected to sing. Even though you could have made it through the quest without any of that, if thy ARE there, then they are expected to do these things. And there is no reason why they shouldnt be expected -- its a significant part of what those classes uniquely bring to the table, and is almost always the primary reason they were added.

[JohnnyDangerously]

But heres the thing. The group leader is ALSO only one of 6 (or 12) people. Chances are the other 4 people also want rage and haste, and they are trusting the group leader to build the party with all of the group dynamics in mind. In fact, the more people you have in the group (IE: raid) the more you fail as a party leader if you DONT make sure all the bases are covered. If you have an arcane in a raid party, and everyone else is drinking haste/rage pots, there is a major fail on the part of the PL AND the arcane. Technically, his party, his rules, but there are expectations of the PL as well. Whether or not a given quest/raid CAN be done without a certain class/spell/whatever isnt even the point. Unless the group was formed with the INTENTION of doing an oddball run (like all cleric shroud), then the folks in the party probably expect certain things. Not least among them is an arcane with rage and haste.

The end point, really, is that yes there are other things an arcane can (and should) contribute to any group. But rage and haste are part of that package. You may be a team player and do the rest of your 'job' well in that group, but if you didnt bring the red and green, you failed on that part. There really just is no other lvl 3 spell that is better in more situations to carry than those 2, once you have 4+ lvl 3 slots. The only time I would EVER tell another player to suck a pot when I am playing an arcane would be if they just refused to huddle up for it when i cast it. And if I am too low lvl to slot the spell (needing fireball etc) I carry clickies for strategic use, cos I know its my 'job' to bring the red and green.


EDIT:


You can make it through most quests without healer, a rogue, or a bard. But in a non-BYOH group, the healer is expected to heal. The rogue is always expected to do traps, and the bard is always expected to sing. Even though you could have made it through the quest without any of that, if thy ARE there, then they are expected to do these things. And there is no reason why they shouldnt be expected -- its a significant part of what those classes uniquely bring to the table, and is almost always the primary reason they were added.

If your (not you specifically) not happy with the party your in, then leave it. If the completion of the quest solely depends on being hasted and raged then your doing it wrong. Lol.

I will always bring haste and rage to the table as an arcane, but to be irate, or even ****ed off in the least bit is bs.

Play the game and have fun with YOUR toon, or dont play the game at all. After all DDO is a computer GAME right?.....

I led a pug where a guy was yelling at a first time sorc because of this, I was the healer. I carried his soul stone in my bag until he quit. Lol

[Aashrym]

My character, my choice is the reason that trumps all others.

It is my character. Nothing else matters. It is still my character.

I'm the one that has to move the character.

I'm the one that has to select what I want on my character.

I'm the one that has to play that character.

I'm the one that has to be happy with my character. It won't matter if other people are happy with my character, if I'm not happy, then it isn't any fun. If having haste loaded in that slot when there is another spell that I'd rather have, and I'm unhappy not being able to use that spell I'd rather have because I have haste and rage loaded, I'm the one not having fun, not the other players.

It is my character.

If haste and rage is that important to a player, they need to have pots to be sure they have that haste and rage they need.

If players don't wish to group with another that doesn't carry haste and rage loaded as a spell, they can put that player on a "friends" list. Personally, I carry pots and I don't care if someone doesn't have it. It sucks hitting my stash but I have pots to cover my needs.

Well, if adding more utility to the party by adding haste and rage would make that player unhappy and unable to play the character I would have to agree. I play to have fun too.

But really? The character is no fun because of 2 third level spells? Out of how many other spells?

Being useful is fun for most players. Granted, the sorc without haste and rage isn't exactly what I would call useless, but what other 3rd level spells would be more fun when they almost all have better higher level alternatives?

That's just arguing the point (the point itself is valid that the character should be enjoyable) for the sake of the point. But what spells would make that character more fun that having a couple mainstays most parties want? That idea is great in abstract, but in practical terms there still aren't any spells I would consider more useful (back to useful is fun).

Players won't have fun dealing with parties that give them a hard time over haste or rage. It's a player attitude but it is also a reality. We can't control the reactions of the general gaming population. The sorc will still have fun spells and have a better chance at being appreciated by the party carrying haste and rage (not a guarantee, just more likely).

Advocating the right to make choices is fine, but some choices are still not the best choices, advocating the right to make poor choices doesn't help the person making those choices. My opinion is still that it is a poor choice to not carry those spells at higher levels. The majority of responses boil down to, "It's my right to make a poor choice." There is still nothing to back up why another choice might be better.

[JohnnyDangerously]

If maintaining haste and rage were an arcanes primary function, then that would justify the comparison to a healer healing. This is not the case though. An arcane is dps/cc first then buffs. Yes an arcane should carry the optimal buffs, but if they dont it is not as big a deal as most make it out to be. Im sure everyone would like all arcanes to follow the same cookie cutter builds except for your elemental dps spells, but that is not why we are given the option of selecting spells.

To really get so mad about someone else not carrying the buffs you want is simply rediculous. Sure you can be dissappointed but never should you tell someone how to play their toon. If they are not up to your standards then either remove them if your the leader or leave if you really think its that big of a deal.

[Aashrym]

If maintaining haste and rage were an arcanes primary function, then that would justify the comparison to a healer healing. This is not the case though. An arcane is dps/cc first then buffs. Yes an arcane should carry the optimal buffs, but if they dont it is not as big a deal as most make it out to be. Im sure everyone would like all arcanes to follow the same cookie cutter builds except for your elemental dps spells, but that is not why we are given the option of selecting spells.

To really get so mad about someone else not carrying the buffs you want is simply rediculous. Sure you can be dissappointed but never should you tell someone how to play their toon. If they are not up to your standards then either remove them if your the leader or leave if you really think its that big of a deal.

I'm not mad. I was shocked, but not mad.

Haste and rage are far from a primary function and the expectation that an arcane caster carries them does not exclude the desire for other features of those casters. That's actually flawed logic. Asking a sorc to cast haste does not mean I don't want him to cast cone of cold for example and is not remotely implied in the request for haste (or rage).

I'm also a fan of "if you want it carry it just in case" mentality. There's no reason a melee can't have haste or rage at that level either. I'm not telling any melees not to carry it, and to use it as needed. I'm telling sorc's those are good spells to slot because they are good spells to slot and work better than pots or clickies.

[Lycurgus]

An arcane using a couple of jerks as justification for permanently removing a party buff, though? Nah I dont think there is a significant number of players doing that.

The thing is, your response suggests that the random guy making things more difficult for everyone else is RARE, unusual, worthy of being commented on in the forums. I'm going to suggest that finding an arcane who refuses to carry haste and rage has been extremely rare. Finding a melee who is squishy, has crappy saves, refuses to group up for mass heals and/or buffs, or even remove their own curses, is pretty damned common in pugs, bordering on..I dunno, every single pug?

We have a guy on Argo who has a habit of screaming "if you only heal me, we can finish this!" Guess what. Get some hp and some dmg mitigation and maybe your multiple healers wouldn't be running out of spell points.

Do a myDDO through everyone posting in this thread, griping about how they need their haste and rage. We've got a very vocal capped third life melee at under 400 hp. The very few (less than 5) melee hitting anywhere near 500 hp are two barbs and one second life bard.

I've played a healer dealing with needy melee, and an arcane dealing with needy melee, and the bottom line is melee need to step their game up. Bring something more to the group than "I swing a stick." You'd better be sapping and stunning and tripping, MAYBE even using shattermantle, or you're just wasting a useful space.

You want haste? Make it worth the spell points. Sad thing is, it's pretty easy to be a decent melee who justifies the spell point expenditure.

[varusso]

If your (not you specifically) not happy with the party your in, then leave it. If the completion of the quest solely depends on being hasted and raged then your doing it wrong. Lol.

I will always bring haste and rage to the table as an arcane, but to be irate, or even ****ed off in the least bit is bs.

Play the game and have fun with YOUR toon, or dont play the game at all. After all DDO is a computer GAME right?.....

I led a pug where a guy was yelling at a first time sorc because of this, I was the healer. I carried his soul stone in my bag until he quit. Lol

Yah, like it or leave it -- thats always the knee jerk response everyone likes to give. But in this case, its much more likely that the majority of the players in the party expected the same thing -- for the arcane to have rage and haste. And as soon as you hear they DONT have it -- that only leads you to wonder about the number of brain cells in the arcane's head.

No one has said rage or haste are a MUST HAVE in order to complete a quest (other than the example of allow-dps group failing because their damage wasnt high enough and quick enough without the two spells---which can happen). The contention is that they improve the quest and have more of a positive impact on the quest (and the group) than any other lvl 3 spell you could put in their place. Sorry but this statement is closer to fact than opinion. You might be able to make an argument for a highly situational use of a specific spell -- but overall, in the most situations, rage and haste beat all.

Someone flying off the handle about an arcane not having it? They are a moron. Questioning the thought process of that arcane? Absolutely.

[MrTops]

I think the point is we really shouldn't expect other characters to conform to our own ideals of what is best or right or most useful.

Some mathematical truths become self evident; you probably need 400 hp, heavy fort, fire resist, FoM, silver/holy weapons and one or more dedicated mass healers to have a trouble free Shroud run on normal.

Possibly the twitchy, dexterous evasion characters can get by with less hp?

Apart from that, it's your own character.

[varusso]

The thing is, your response suggests that the random guy making things more difficult for everyone else is RARE, unusual, worthy of being commented on in the forums. I'm going to suggest that finding an arcane who refuses to carry haste and rage has been extremely rare. Finding a melee who is squishy, has crappy saves, refuses to group up for mass heals and/or buffs, or even remove their own curses, is pretty damned common in pugs, bordering on..I dunno, every single pug?

We have a guy on Argo who has a habit of screaming "if you only heal me, we can finish this!" Guess what. Get some hp and some dmg mitigation and maybe your multiple healers wouldn't be running out of spell points.

Do a myDDO through everyone posting in this thread, griping about how they need their haste and rage. We've got a very vocal capped third life melee at under 400 hp. The very few (less than 5) melee hitting anywhere near 500 hp are two barbs and one second life bard.

I've played a healer dealing with needy melee, and an arcane dealing with needy melee, and the bottom line is melee need to step their game up. Bring something more to the group than "I swing a stick." You'd better be sapping and stunning and tripping, MAYBE even using shattermantle, or you're just wasting a useful space.

You want haste? Make it worth the spell points. Sad thing is, it's pretty easy to be a decent melee who justifies the spell point expenditure.

An arcane without rage/haste *is* relatively rare -- for now. Because the majority of players know what the group expects from them -- and for arcanes, that means the majority of them know that includes rage and haste. and since the majority of players actually DO want a smoother run, that means the majority of them Do carry it.

I dont bother with MyDDO. Its buggy as hell, and it doesnt tell the full story anyway. It only shows what they logged out with, which may or may not be their actual optimal combat gear. It also doesnt say a thing about their actual play skills, or if they are farming up the ings for their GS and havent got them all yet -- or if they have been getting crappy drops in raids. I dont even consider MyDDO a good starting point.

The very melees you are complaining about -- the ones that are subpar -- they only get worse if you DONT rage/haste them I want to see all melees in my group carrying rage/haste pots for those times when they get missed by my spells, or when I am out of SP or desperately need it for something else. Not because i am too lazy, too stubborn, or too self-centered to cast it myself. You made me mad so I wont rage/haste you? Yee haa now I am screwing 4 other people as well over some petty BS.

Oh and the arrogant "HEAL ME!!" putz that thinks a quest pivots on them? They dont get invited back to my groups.

[Fenrisulven6]

It comes in pots. If you need it that bad, buy some.

Or roll up your own haste-bot.

[Vellrad]

Haste, when compared to other spells not having a static effect* or depending on the caster/user like bardic song or all damaging spells increasing with users gear and build, doesn't depends on caster but his (or her) target. Haste is completely different- its effects varies only on recipient- his (or her) DPS is increased by about 15% (if I remember correct), thus with weak meeles haste is almost useless, and with good its better than meteor's swarm. Or even 10.

*By static spell effect I mean spells like GH or blur- where bonus is constant (+4 morale to most of tests, 20% concealment)

[varusso]

Haste, when compared to other spells not having a static effect* or depending on the caster/user like bardic song or all damaging spells increasing with users gear and build, doesn't depends on caster but his (or her) target. Haste is completely different- its effects varies only on recipient- his (or her) DPS is increased by about 15% (if I remember correct), thus with weak meeles haste is almost useless, and with good its better than meteor's swarm. Or even 10.

*By static spell effect I mean spells like GH or blur- where bonus is constant (+4 morale to most of tests, 20% concealment)

Better is better, regardless of the starting point. It also benefits up to 12 people, with a variety of positive effects. No other level 3 spells (besides rage) can boast this on high lvl toons. I would argue the same is even true for low and mid lvl toons, with a few exceptions for situational uses for other lvl 3 spells. Even then, its only situational.

[Vellrad]

Better is better, regardless of the starting point. It also benefits up to 12 people, with a variety of positive effects. No other level 3 spells (besides rage) can boast this on high lvl toons. I would argue the same is even true for low and mid lvl toons, with a few exceptions for situational uses for other lvl 3 spells. Even then, its only situational.

What I mean is, when I'm in pug with couple of gimped meeles, there is no way I will waste my mana to haste them, because for that 30SP I could make better effect. Of course, I'm haste addict myself, I can't stand running without that 40% speed boost, but I'm definitively not going to recast it over and over on meeles dieing all the time or running off when I'm calling everyone for haste (with caps and red letters), unless its a good meele dealing whole lot of damage.

[Lycurgus]

An arcane without rage/haste *is* relatively rare -- for now. Because the majority of players know what the group expects from them -- and for arcanes, that means the majority of them know that includes rage and haste. and since the majority of players actually DO want a smoother run, that means the majority of them Do carry it.

I dont bother with MyDDO. Its buggy as hell, and it doesnt tell the full story anyway. It only shows what they logged out with, which may or may not be their actual optimal combat gear. It also doesnt say a thing about their actual play skills, or if they are farming up the ings for their GS and havent got them all yet -- or if they have been getting crappy drops in raids. I dont even consider MyDDO a good starting point.

The very melees you are complaining about -- the ones that are subpar -- they only get worse if you DONT rage/haste them I want to see all melees in my group carrying rage/haste pots for those times when they get missed by my spells, or when I am out of SP or desperately need it for something else. Not because i am too lazy, too stubborn, or too self-centered to cast it myself. You made me mad so I wont rage/haste you? Yee haa now I am screwing 4 other people as well over some petty BS.

Oh and the arrogant "HEAL ME!!" putz that thinks a quest pivots on them? They dont get invited back to my groups.

I genuinely appreciate your approach to the topic and the reasonableness with which you present your claims. I want to clarify that ahead of time, because it's a fact which may easily become lost in the disagreements which may follow.

MyDDO is buggy, it locks up, it freezes for 6 months or more....but, you can usually tell when that happens. If a quick search shows a featherfall trinket on a melee, I'm going to bet they probably have a seeker trinket which has been swapped. If a bard has a grease wand equipped, I'll guess they have a khopesh, or something that does more damage than a wand. When MyDDO shows a 300 hp capped toon on a third life...then, I wonder. MyDDO is not the be-all end-all, and it's been fraught with error. But, it's improved, and I will use it on my clonk and ask before going into a quest "do you have full fort?" You really shouldn't lie to your cleric about these things..they, before anyone else are going to KNOW. But, it happens. It happens a lot.

The crux of my argument comes down to the fact that the melee you call "sub-par" are becoming the par. You say that they're the ones most in need of buffs, being carried along, suckled at the experience until they decide they're uber awesome and anyone who doesn't carry their weaksauce build through the quest is just plain mean or stupid. And, the ones with the lousiest builds generally cry the loudest for heals, buffs and curse removal.

I don't object to taking care of curses on a main tank, if they make it worth my while. I'll rage and haste them, tossing in a displacement and cloudkill for a good tank, if they make it worth my while. If they have some healing amp, I may just toss some heals to make sure the numbers were real. More frequently, I end up with some idiot trying to steal aggro in elite VoD to prove how cool he is, and then whining about not getting heals. The sub-par melee is the standard. If you want buffs and heals, shape up, work with your casters and not against them. If you're just that cool, do without and shut up about it.

[Viisari]

Sure, I'll give you your haste for boss fights and shroud part 1, otherwise, why bother? I probably already killed every mob in the room anyway and all you did was stand there. Some sands epics are bit of an exception here though

[Namey]

I can't imagine dropping haste from my any of my casters, even if I was Extendless and soloing all the time. I'm an ADHD speedfreak, and I crave the +% to my running speed, even if I'm not using the increased attack speed for anything.

There's also the occasional corner case where it's good to have for caster melee purposes, such as Dreamspitter (even if nerfed). Not taking Rage I'm even more confused about. It gives the caster more HP, and that alone is worth a lowly level 2/3 spell slot. Even if it didn't buff the entire party, I'd still pack the spell every single time as a very valuable self buff.

[NUDS]

Ok, since this thread is focused on sorcerers, this breakdown will be based on sorcerers.

This is meant to be a unbiased "review" of the actual usefulness of the level 3 spells. Since part of the problem is psychological i.e. "my character my spells", I won't attempt to cover the social side. Instead I will base this purely on the technical side for the sake of discussion.

The weighting of each spell is mainly based on the level at which the spells are obtained i.e. low to mid levels.

• Acid Blast - This is a very good AoE/DPS spell for lower levels, although it's likely to be replaced by Acid Rain which has the no-save AoE/DoT effect after mid-level. Most likely carried by Fire Savants with a minor in Acid. Air/Cold savants generally won't have a minor in Acid and this is available to Earth Savant III as a SLA.
  
  
  
• Chain Missiles - Useful for breaking immunities - AoE version of Magic Missile. Although the chances of encountering a group of mobs immune to conventional spells is low in the lower to mid levels. Likely replaced by Disintegrate/Meteor Swarm.
  
  
  
• Deep Slumber - Decent AoE CC for low to mid levels. Bear in mind all Undead/Constructs/Elf/Drow are immune to this spell. Available on scrolls.
  
  
  
• Dispel Magic - Good for getting rid of debuffs, with the downside of purging buffs too. Can be cast offensively to get rid of enemy buffs. Comes on wands/scrolls.
  
  
  
• Displacement - Excellent damage mitation, for both solo and party play. Shorter duration means this is most cost-effective when cast before major fights. Keep in mind cloud concealment will replace this for some raid bosses.
  
  
  
• Fireball - Same as Acid Blast, with fire damage. Most likely carried by Earth Savants with a minor in Fire, in conjunction with Wall of Fire at low to mid level play. Again, Air/Cold savants generally won't have a minor in Fire and this is available to Fire Savant III as a SLA. Replaced by Delayed Blast Fireball.
  
  
  
• Flame Arrow - Useful if playing a flavor build involving ranged attacks. Otherwise can be scrolled/wanded.
  
  
  
• Frost Lance - Powerfull at lower levels against enemies that are vulnerable to cold. Decent filler at higher levels, especially for Air savants and possibly Earth savants that minor in Cold.
  
  
  
• Halt Undead - Excellent undead CC at lower levels, works best on non-intelligent Undead. Not as useful mid to high levels as AoE DPS is preferable to CC in most situations. Available on scrolls.
  
  
  
• Haste - Very good party buff for melee/ranged players, +15% attack speed and +1 to attack rolls. Also gives +1 to reflex saves and AC. +40% faster movement benifits all classes.
  Widely available on scrolls/pots/clickies.
  
  
  
• Heroism - Good low to mid level buff. Replaced by Greater Heroism. Widely available in pots/scrolls/clickes.
  
  
  
• Hold Person - Not as attractive now that melee don't get auto-crits. Replaced by Mass Hold Person/Mass Hold Monster. Available on scrolls.
  
  
  
• Lightning Bolt - Excellent AoE spell, incredible damage when the stars align. Could be difficult to get consistent damage i.e. lining mobs up, assuming it doesn't miss, "You are not facing X" etc. May be carried by Cold savants with a minor in Air, available as a SLA for Air savant III.
  
  
  
• Magic Circle Against Evil - AoE version of Protection from Evil. Good for preventing mind control/knocked down on your butt. available on wands/scrolls.
  
  
  
• Protection from Energy - Excellent for preventing a chunk of damage to a specific element. Replaced by Protection from Elements. available on wands/scrolls.
  
  
  
• Rage - Very good buff spell for group/solo play. +2 Strength benefits melee and +20 hp for all classes. Widely available on scrolls/pots/clickies.
  
  
  
• Ray of Exhaustion - Nice for debuffing tough mobs in low to mid levels. available on wands/scrolls/clickies.
  
  
  
• Repair Serious Damage - Useful if playing with Warforged. Eventually replaced by Reconstruction. available on wands/scrolls.
  
  
  
• Sleet Storm - May do more harm than good due to it affecting both mobs and players. Grouped with Grease in terms of "griefing" potential. available on scrolls.
  
  
  
• Slow - Debuffing version of haste. Can be a good AoE debuff spell in conjunction with other movement reducing debuffs i.e. Ray/Wave of Exhaustion. available on scrolls/clickies.
  
  
  
• Stinking Cloud - As Fog Cloud (-20% hit chance for attackers), with the addition of Nauseated. available on scrolls.
  
  
  
• Suggestion - Shorter duration than Charm Person/Monster, however mobs don't get additional saves for the duration of the charm. Replaced by Mass Suggestion. available on scrolls.
  
  
  
• Summon Monster III - Summon Monster X spells are unfortunely rather lackluster in this game. available on scrolls.
  
  
  
• Water Breathing - Useful if you don't have waterbreathing items. available on scrolls.
  
  
  

So in summary, most of these spells has its uses at level. However, the majority of them are replaced by better versions as you level. Most of the spells can also be wanded or scrolled.

It should be noted that of all the spells here, Haste, Rage and Displacement are the only ones that doesn't lose effectiveness as the player levels.

In fact, they scale really well as the players levels due to the increase in spell duration.

[KillEveryone]

Being useful is fun for most players. Granted, the sorc without haste and rage isn't exactly what I would call useless, but what other 3rd level spells would be more fun when they almost all have better higher level alternatives?

The desire for certain spells vary by player but it still doesn't matter what spells would be taken.

If they feel they want certain spells at that level, it is still their character.

Haste and rage come in pots.

[varusso]

What I mean is, when I'm in pug with couple of gimped meeles, there is no way I will waste my mana to haste them, because for that 30SP I could make better effect. Of course, I'm haste addict myself, I can't stand running without that 40% speed boost, but I'm definitively not going to recast it over and over on meeles dieing all the time or running off when I'm calling everyone for haste (with caps and red letters), unless its a good meele dealing whole lot of damage.

Oh thats a given. Ive already said the moron who refuses to group up for buffs can suck a pot. But I wouldnt deny him the opportunity to get that rage and haste in the first place.