PSA Haste does not waste a valuable spell slot

[varusso]

Sure, there are those.
There are jerks of all classes and races.

But I don't think that any sorcs are switching in and out Haste as a spell based on who they are pugging with.

They carry it or they don't.
They do/don't have it for the party of inconsiderate, selfish melee and they do/don't have it for the melee that passes major pots to the casters and holds up their end.

I was asking what he was suggesting with the statements.
That melee, as a group, must weed out all of those that disrespect casters before some will carry basic buffs? or what?

I was also pointing out that the point of the elements of a sub-par melee he mentioned actually makes a good argument why casters should carry basic buffs.
Some things are build choices and some things just aren't group friendly.

Nobody is going to argue that a fighter with 250 HP, 0% fort, no DR, no AC and no healing amp is just "playing a unique build" and defend his right to "play the game the way he wants".
Can the fighter have such a build?
Sure.
But nobody will want to group with that fighter and who can blame them?
It's just not party friendly.

Yeah, obviously, sorcs arent hot-swapping their spells based on the party -- they cant I do know some who stop giving out rage/haste when the other party members are being jerks -- just like white hats that stop healing if they get upset. Those parties are pretty much doomed anyway, and at least one member is probably getting dropped at the first opportunity.

An arcane using a couple of jerks as justification for permanently removing a party buff, though? Nah I dont think there is a significant number of players doing that. More likely, they are carrying different spells for some other reason, and they have already been told repeatedly that their reasoning was stupid/noobish, so now they just fall back on 'my spellbook, my choice, i dont have to justify it!' and refuse to say any more. It gives the impression they are acting like pouty children, even if they are not. I personally have yet to see a good reason for dropping rage/haste, even on a sorc, once they get to mid-high lvl, even on a straight DPs build, as they have too many other BETTER choices for DPS available to give up these two spells. The one exception so far being acid-spec. I can see that one. But you can still fit rage/haste/displacement AND acid blast in your lvl 3 slots,in addition to the SLA acid blast. And there are better versions of the other lvl 3 spells available in higher tiers. So even that one is pretty "meh".

On MY sorc, I carry rage and haste (and displacement), and I dont miss whatever spell might have been there. Even if they didnt benefit me directly, I would still carry them for when i fill the arcane spot in a group, cos I know they are expected, and cos I happen to like making things easier for everyone.

And yeah, that hypothetical fighter has every right to play his build however he likes. If he manages to pull that off in a group, without being a burden to the rest of the group -- well ok then he is super-gamer. But it is unlikely, and will probably earn him some blacklisting -- just like white hats that refuse to heal and arcanes that refuse to rage/haste/buff/cc/whatever or rogues that dont do traps.

[Lycurgus]

But I don't think that any sorcs are switching in and out Haste as a spell based on who they are pugging with.
<snip>
Edit - Ok reread you post Lycurgus. <snip>
Again, sorry I misrepresented your post.

No worries, it's all good.

To clarify my position a bit, I'm in the middle of a long string of arcane and divine trs, and the arcane lives always carry rage and haste whilst the divines always carry mass heal/FoM/deathward and the usual goodies. I'm also soloing the majority of it because pugs are borderline intolerable and invariably more demanding on resources.

I am actually curious about the "why" of this seeming change in player choices. Perhaps there has been an influx of new players who are obstinate about doing what the vast majority of the player base wants. That seems unlikely, but is certainly possible. My suspicion is that it's more of an unintended consequence of update 9. I think sorcs in particular may be asking themselves whether it's more efficient use of their spell points to buff or to simply kill the mob. Divines may be experiencing a bit of the same thing with the new DoT. Why spend 120 spell points and a few heal scrolls buffing and healing melee when I can kill the mob with 70 and no scroll usage?

It's food for thought.

[DDOisFree]

I look for wizards with high necro DC's and enchantment DC's. Good necro DC's are great in epics since U9.

Sorc's can put out a lot of damage fast on bosses these days.

I have 41 necro DC, and 40 Enchantment DC on my wizard plus 450 HP in Lich Form (42 necro, and 41 enchantment DCs with a +2 int ship buff).

I just did my first epic chrono run (only got to level 20 yesterday) And I was managing to hold and CC everything in sight. I used Vampire Form for that though, because that gives me another +1 Enchantment DC.

As for damage on bosses, you should have enough DPSers in a group for that, and Wizards can still use niacs, eladars and melfs, plus something that sorcerers never have - Waves of Exhaustion which works on most bosses that I've used it on so far in Epics.

I did some epic red fens quests earlier and tried using Necrotic Ray a few times. The 600 damage didnt even put the slightest dent on the thing I used it on, so I went back to spaming CCs.

I strongly believe that CCs and Necro spells are a lot more useful in Epics than DPS Sorcs are.

[Aashrym]

I have 41 necro DC, and 40 Enchantment DC on my wizard plus 450 HP in Lich Form (42 necro, and 41 enchantment DCs with a +2 int ship buff).

I just did my first epic chrono run (only got to level 20 yesterday) And I was managing to hold and CC everything in sight. I used Vampire Form for that though, because that gives me another +1 Enchantment DC.

As for damage on bosses, you should have enough DPSers in a group for that, and Wizards can still use niacs, eladars and melfs, plus something that sorcerers never have - Waves of Exhaustion which works on most bosses that I've used it on so far in Epics.

I did some epic red fens quests earlier and tried using Necrotic Ray a few times. The 600 damage didnt even put the slightest dent on the thing I used it on, so I went back to spaming CCs.

I strongly believe that CCs and Necro spells are a lot more useful in Epics than DPS Sorcs are.

It`s the damage bonus sorcs get that make the difference, and that`s compounded by AoE`s and bonus for helpless if it`s there. Bonuses to caster level in some cases and capstone. Savant curse on top of that. They are worth adding for DPS.

Players just need to break the only one caster mentality that still happens sometimes. Savants hitting mass held mobs works well.

They should still carry haste and rage tho, imo.

[zhanruiqi]

(Fell - "l" add "e") LOL FROM AN ACTUAL SORCEROR...

How many melees out there DONT actually WANT a DR breaking weapon? How many clerics DONT WANT radiant servant glow? How many rogues DONT put a single point into Disable Device.

Have any idea how many arcane casters I see who don't use stoneskin? blur? haste? resists? displace? I see alot, and when they don't listen, don't answer or argue I die a little bit inside.

Arguably you can survive without these CORE spells for any caster but why the hell would a caster want to? Unless they are trying to gimp themselves on purpose cause they are geared to the teeth and bored of the game ... I scroll cast teleport to open a spot for Cloudkill which is requested and usefull in shroud, ToD Vod etc, I painfully gave up protection from elements in favor of the Cold DOT on my capped Sorceror, I have stacks of GH scrolls and Reconstruct Scrolls and switch Recon and GH out at the Sorc trainer depending on if I have to recon some WF... MY SORC IS DROW

Play a caster the way you want...and if that way is halfa$$ed so be it. I will laugh behind your back when you are get your butt handed to you because you felt having a more variety of pew pew is better than staying alive with Stoneskin, Blur, Displace, Resists.... I GUARRANTY the "dps" "benefit" you get from the one 3rd level spell is NOT ANYWHERE CLOSE TO the ACTUALLY REAL DPS increase that HASTE gives a party of melee. Its even worth taking EXTEND on my FEAT STARVED sorceror JUST TO HASTE THE MELEES AND DISPLACEMENT on EVERYONE.


/Deep Breath

amen to that brotha.

[Postumus]

Play your arcane however you want.

If you want to be a team player, then two of your third level spells will always be Haste and Rage. Especially in top-heavy melee groups, 15% alacrity, +1 hit/damage and 20 HP is a very nice benefit. Is it required to win any fight? No. But neither are ship buffs, or most other spells in the game. What it does do is reduce the overall time an encounter takes, which means less burden on healers and less time for something to go wrong. I would find it hard to believe anyone who would say "I wish this boss encounter lasted longer" or "I wish melees did less damage on this boss encounter".

Remove Haste from your argument since I already said I carry it and can't see why any arcane wouldn't carry it.


So regarding Rage:

1- Rage doesn't give you 20 HP if you aren't 20th level. We aren't limiting ourselves to l20 characters, so at what point does a HP boost become inconsequential -especially for melee - 5? 10? So is a 10 HP boost worth a spell slot? Maybe. Is 15 HP? I guess. Honestly even 15 HP isn't a game breaker.

2- So if I don't play in top heavy melee groups, is the Rage spell as important? What if I mostly solo? What if I usually play with a bard or another wizard? Then Rage wouldn't be a good spell to memorize since the the group already has it covered. It would be better for the group if I had a different spell than carrying redundant spell, right?

3-It comes in pots and clickies. If you need Rage to be successful, invest in those.

[zwiebelring]

Is point 2 valid for the discussion? Your number 2 involved people who adapt to party but problems occur with people who do not. They say they don't need i. e. haste for their character so they don't carry it. This is for any spell which buffs the party.

Even Protection From [Energy] can be useful if added to Resist Energy. But sticking to the attitude that you play your toons the way you want to is sometimes not good for a team.

You play the way you want, I build parties the way I want *Arcane caster without haste has been dismissed from your party*. And done with it.

There is a big difference between telling people how to play or asking if they might carry a certain spell because of whatever reason.

[caberonia]

In honour of this thread my new Wizard...yes you heard me...wizard... will be my first caster never to load haste. I won't even inscribe or learn haste just so people can't tell me to swap to it at the next shrine.

Thats funny..I built a transmutation archmage who does NOTHING but buff (well i throw the occasional web, and can do traps too). Extend + buffs is just about all his SP between shrines. But that will change once he gets his haste SLA lol. Haven't had a party complain yet that i'm doing absolutely NOTHING but buffing them go figure.They are probably thinking "oh finally a mage who knows his role as a buff bot" (although i think other mages like me more than the melees do since they don't have to buff).

[varusso]

Remove Haste from your argument since I already said I carry it and can't see why any arcane wouldn't carry it.


So regarding Rage:

1- Rage doesn't give you 20 HP if you aren't 20th level. We aren't limiting ourselves to l20 characters, so at what point does a HP boost become inconsequential -especially for melee - 5? 10? So is a 10 HP boost worth a spell slot? Maybe. Is 15 HP? I guess. Honestly even 15 HP isn't a game breaker.

2- So if I don't play in top heavy melee groups, is the Rage spell as important? What if I mostly solo? What if I usually play with a bard or another wizard? Then Rage wouldn't be a good spell to memorize since the the group already has it covered. It would be better for the group if I had a different spell than carrying redundant spell, right?

3-It comes in pots and clickies. If you need Rage to be successful, invest in those.

*Actually, we ARE talking about high lvl toons -- that has been explicitly stated several times. Lower level sorcs (IE below 11th) have to make choices about their lvl 3 slots that become moot later.
*The HP of rage *by itself* is not a gamebreaker, but it stacks with everything else, and it adds up quickly.
*Rage still gives the bonus to STR, which is a bonus to melee TH and to damage, regardless of the lvl at which it is cast. It also makes it less likely to get incapped from ray of enfeeblement -- which on caster classes, is significant, given that STR is not a main stat for them.
*Rage benefits 3 of the 4 T3 savant abilities -- PREs which are specifically designed to increase the DPS of the Sorc and give them more options in terms of spell choices. Most notably the very lvl 3 slots under discussion.
*Soloing and static groups have already been covered -- multiple times. This is about what is expected from any arcane in PUGs (or static groups who dont have another rage/haster).
*Pots and clickies have already been covered, and are subpar compared to a CAST rage or haste (at least the rage timer is better than the haste one, but its still worse than cast). SP also renews for free; pots do not. You can drink HP pots too -- doesnt mean the healer should ignore you in a non-BYOH group.
*Slotting rage AND haste (and displacement) does not in any way impede your overall spell choices. You have spells in higher tiers that are better choices than the other utility or DPS spells in lvl 3. And you have plenty of slots in those tiers to cover all your bases. Savant gives you another lvl 3 DPS spell at 18. You STILL have one more lvl 3 slot after all that to pick whatever flavor spell you want to carry.

In short, there is no reason not to be a team player and bring the two lvl 3 spells that most benefit groups overall, in nearly every situation. If you are soloing, you still gain significant benefits from both spells. But if you are ONLY soloing (which no one really does, but lets just say you do) -- no one really cares what you slot. It only matters when you join a group. And since sorc's cant freely swap spells like wiizzies, that pretty much means you have to keep it all the time if you ever want to group and actually play as part of the team, rather than 6 ppl soloing the same dungeon together.

NOTE: I find it funny that you used a bard as your example of why you would not need rage/haste in a static group. Why is it ok that you ASSUME the bard is carrying it (thereby negating your need to carry it) but it is not ok to assume that the SORC is carry it? Bards have a variety of roles they can play in any given group. They can be the buffer, the CC, DPS, and even the healer. If the bard is the healer for the static group (been there, done that) should they be dedicating spell slots and SP to rage/haste as well? What if they are heavy CC spec? Rage/haste is good for them to carry even then, but they have limited SP. It seems you have relegated the bard in your mind to being only a buffbot. And before you reply with something about them having a choice too -- you already made your personal expectations clear -- the same expectations the majority of players have. The same expectations of ALL arcanes. A bard is almost certainly going to have rage/haste slotted, for the same reasons a sorc would -- all the benfits of the spells, and they cant hot-swap like a wizzie, so it is a permanent slot.

And yes I know you concede that haste is a given. Rage and haste go together like cake and icecream, and this post isnt JUSt a response to yours -- its also a general response to those who are so determined that both spells are not worth slotting.

[JohnnyDangerously]

I carry haste and use it whenever I can, but not once have I told someone that they are selfish or wrong for not doing so. I have been in pugs on my paladin where the sorc was buffing me with blur, displacement, and resist energy (did not carry haste). I did not base this persons team play solely on one spell. To do so is absurd. It is never anyones right to demand such things in a GAME. If you are truly that upset about then dont bother playing. I always boot demanding people from my pugs, and the group always runs smoother and happier without them.

If your a melee disappointed with your lacking kill count, dont blame the caster that doesnt carry haste.

If your just looking to finish a quest faster instead of having a fun social gaming experience then get out of my pug.

You can make however you want. No one has the right to tell you what spells to slot. There are other ways of being a team player. This game does not revolve around melees always needing to be hasted.

[varusso]

I carry haste and use it whenever I can, but not once have I told someone that they are selfish or wrong for not doing so. I have been in pugs on my paladin where the sorc was buffing me with blur, displacement, and resist energy (did not carry haste). I did not base this persons team play solely on one spell. To do so is absurd. It is never anyones right to demand such things in a GAME. If you are truly that upset about then dont bother playing. I always boot demanding people from my pugs, and the group always runs smoother and happier without them.

If your a melee disappointed with your lacking kill count, dont blame the caster that doesnt carry haste.

If your just looking to finish a quest faster instead of having a fun social gaming experience then get out of my pug.

You can make however you want. No one has the right to tell you what spells to slot. There are other ways of being a team player. This game does not revolve around melees always needing to be hasted.

If you are going to get that upset about someone expecting you to have a stock spell when they recruit you, dont play a caster. If it bothers you that most people want to complete a quest faster, rather than slower, dont PUG. If you think lack of haste and rage wont negatively impact a melee's performance in a quest, then you need to learn more about game mechanics.

Yes there are absolutely other things that determine whether or not someone is a 'team player'. Rage/haste on an arcane are among them -- and higher among them than blur or resists. You can get resists from multiple sources. You can get permanent blur-effect items (and resists) with the exact same (or better) effects, Rage and haste only come in spell, pot, or clickie. clickies and pots are vastly inferior, as has been explained. Exactly how many elements of a team player can be missing, before they are no longer a team player? Fact is, there is nothing in the lvl 3 spell slots that are better for a group overall, in the most situations, than rage and haste. That includes for the arcane himself.

Again, this is with higher lvl players in mind, not the lowbies who actually may need those lvl 3 slots for DPS.

[KillEveryone]

Not that I wouldn't carry haste because I'm a haste addict. Any of my characters that can't cast it has pots.

But it is still my character.

I paid for my adventure packs so I've paid for my game.

If you wan't to pay for my adventure packs, bank tabs and anything else that costs money...real money, then you can tell me what I have to carry and how to play. Until then, it is still my character and my game.

If you don't want to group with me, fine, I don't really care.

Suck a pot.

[JohnnyDangerously]

If you are going to get that upset about someone expecting you to have a stock spell when they recruit you, dont play a caster. If it bothers you that most people want to complete a quest faster, rather than slower, dont PUG. If you think lack of haste and rage wont negatively impact a melee's performance in a quest, then you need to learn more about game mechanics.

Yes there are absolutely other things that determine whether or not someone is a 'team player'. Rage/haste on an arcane are among them -- and higher among them than blur or resists. You can get resists from multiple sources. You can get permanent blur-effect items (and resists) with the exact same (or better) effects, Rage and haste only come in spell, pot, or clickie. clickies and pots are vastly inferior, as has been explained. Exactly how many elements of a team player can be missing, before they are no longer a team player? Fact is, there is nothing in the lvl 3 spell slots that are better for a group overall, in the most situations, than rage and haste. That includes for the arcane himself.

Again, this is with higher lvl players in mind, not the lowbies who actually may need those lvl 3 slots for DPS.

Did you read my post? The first sentence says I carry haste and use it. Your mistaking my bluntness for being upset.

Dont get me wrong, if its your pug you can accept or deny based on whatever you wish. What I am saying is not carrying haste does not make someone a selfish player.

[TheDearLeader]

What I am saying is not carrying haste does not make someone a selfish player.

I can agree with this - I carry Haste on my Sorc and Bard *because* I'm a selfish player.

[KillEveryone]

What I am saying is not carrying haste does not make someone a selfish player.

I do have to agree with this.

If a player is contributing in other ways, they are still contributing. They may be doing it in a manner that others disagree with but they are still contributing.

Even if a haste pot is only 30 seconds, anyone can drink a pot.

[varusso]

Did you read my post? The first sentence says I carry haste and use it. Your mistaking my bluntness for being upset.

Dont get me wrong, if its your pug you can accept or deny based on whatever you wish. What I am saying is not carrying haste does not make someone a selfish player.

Yes I read that. I was responding to your other points. I was not saying YOU specifically -- in the same manner that I assume you were not directly targeting any poster in this thread; usually I make it a point of stating that. I just forgot to on this one. My counterpoints still stand, though.

[JohnnyDangerously]

Yes I read that. I was responding to your other points. I was not saying YOU specifically -- in the same manner that I assume you were not directly targeting any poster in this thread; usually I make it a point of stating that. I just forgot to on this one. My counterpoints still stand, though.

I fully agree that any group leader can deny anyone for any reason and expect certain things of those that they do accept. Basically what I am getting at is that if certain things arent required by the group leader then it is unacceptable for other group members to be so demanding. Those are types that I boot from my groups.

I do feel that haste and rage are very important, but I do not base my opinions on how well a person plays with a team based on the spells that they carry.

If a caster who does not carry these stills plays his toon well within a team, then I fully appreciate the contribution that they make. A caster that allows the tank to grab aggro before nuking is an example of a team player. A caster that grabs aggro intentionally and requires more healing than the tank is not a team player even if they have haste.

[MrTops]

Some quests really do work better with certain combination of spells.

Shroud, me old favorite (rarely do other raids) really goes better with Resist Energy and FoM.

Death Ward is useful for Kasquik but I suspect most players have their own item / clicky.

Haste is always a bonus (in any quest) and True Seeing can help with some portals.

Oh, and Wail, that's good early on.

GH, Displace, Rage (also good).

And Knock, lets not forget Knock (but if everyone could do the puzzles it's kind of superfluous).

I forgot Mass Heals! How crazy!

I've run through successful shrouds with no Arcanes. We just DPS'ed the mobs in part 1 and Rangers did for the crystal in part 2. Rouges did for doors in part 3.

Clerics / FvS / Rangers did resists and FOM and we completed.

I'm not saying Haste isn't usefull. Just saying you can play DDO without it.

Haste is +15% to DPS. I've pugged Shroud with some groups that, compared to some others, had +50% DPS engineered into their characters. They didn't need the +15% haste to drop Harry in half a round.

If you're putting up the LFM you can say 'want arcane with Haste'. I don't think it's lack is so game breaking.

[Aashrym]

Not that I wouldn't carry haste because I'm a haste addict. Any of my characters that can't cast it has pots.

But it is still my character.

I paid for my adventure packs so I've paid for my game.

If you wan't to pay for my adventure packs, bank tabs and anything else that costs money...real money, then you can tell me what I have to carry and how to play. Until then, it is still my character and my game.

If you don't want to group with me, fine, I don't really care.

Suck a pot.

My first thought when I read that was, "eat a rez cake". Healing comes in pots don't tell me how to play my character because I'm contributing my way kind of stuff.

I didn't want to perpetuate a nasty discussion along those lines tho.

I'm not telling players how to play their character when I'm telling them to take haste so much as telling them the best way to build their character in my opinion.

There are just some spells that are such obvious choices that I would never dream of not taking them. High level sorcs don't have a better reason not to take haste and rage other than personal choice. If a person values that then support those choices.

I question why the personal choice tho and compare it to practicality. Haste and rage are not spells that have better versions or can be handled with different/similar versions at other levels. Other level 3 spells are and do have better alternatives.

I see a lot of, "my character my choice" posts but not a lot of actual reasons that other choices are better as they apply to gameplay. I'm not a fan of being told how to play or telling others how to play, but there are limits to that. Haste and rage are up there with CON is not a dump stat in game advice in my opinion.

[KillEveryone]

I see a lot of, "my character my choice" posts but not a lot of actual reasons that other choices are better as they apply to gameplay. I'm not a fan of being told how to play or telling others how to play, but there are limits to that. Haste and rage are up there with CON is not a dump stat in game advice in my opinion.

My character, my choice is the reason that trumps all others.

It is my character. Nothing else matters. It is still my character.

I'm the one that has to move the character.

I'm the one that has to select what I want on my character.

I'm the one that has to play that character.

I'm the one that has to be happy with my character. It won't matter if other people are happy with my character, if I'm not happy, then it isn't any fun. If having haste loaded in that slot when there is another spell that I'd rather have, and I'm unhappy not being able to use that spell I'd rather have because I have haste and rage loaded, I'm the one not having fun, not the other players.

It is my character.

If haste and rage is that important to a player, they need to have pots to be sure they have that haste and rage they need.

If players don't wish to group with another that doesn't carry haste and rage loaded as a spell, they can put that player on a "friends" list. Personally, I carry pots and I don't care if someone doesn't have it. It sucks hitting my stash but I have pots to cover my needs.