PSA Haste does not waste a valuable spell slot

[Lycurgus]

Keeping fresh haste on the melee wasn't particularly high on my list of priorities during my last wizard life. It usually fell somewhere below keeping the mobs danced/held/persuaded/insta-killed and forgie party members reconstructed, but above thumb-twiddling. It becomes somewhat annoying to hear demands for "HJASTE ME!, HJEAL ME!" when a bunch of knuckle-dragging neanderthals are spread out across the room playing with their own individual mobs while you're busy performing cc keeping drow casters from destroying the party. Get a clickie and don't be afraid to use it. The things are only tier 2, so claims that this somehow competes with constructing min IIs are ludicrous.

The "solution" is for haste to cost 75 sp, last 5 min and be unextendable. Thanks to update 9, extend is of questionable value as a feat, and haste is one of the few reasons to even consider taking it. Rather than griping at arcanes to nannybot melee, doling out a fresh haste every few minutes (or waste a feat selection just to gain 2 minutes of peace and quiet at cap), start harassing turbine to increase the duration and cost and eliminate the feat altogether.

Double or treble the duration and cost of divine favor and divine power as well, plz, before the divines throw a fit.

[Eleia]

My basic problems with caster buffs is simple...I like casting the group ones, hate casting the individual ones.

Most people here appear (to me) to be just thinking about what buffs they need/want.

But when you're with 11 other people, and 11 people want stoneskin, resists, protection, blur, displacement and g. heroism it just gets old fast.

I'm all about being a team player, and never minded just being the arcane "buffbot" in raids, but with the u9 updates, my dps has changed. I'm getting crazy mad crits on my spells, and that helps the group as well.

I'm not saying I refuse to buff...but after all of this time why don't we have group spells accessible? I would love mass resists, stoneskin, blur and displacement to go with my protection, haste, and rage.

As much as I hate to say it, the days of non melees only being in the group to "buff us up,cc and move out of the way," are quickly coming to an end.

Either we start seeing useful mass buffs like the divines have, or things will have to change.

Oh, and I carry haste as well. You just have to get near me for it...im not running into the pack of mobs you're fighting. They're scarry.

[mobrien316]

Like a lot of other posters in this thread, I do tend to expect certain things from certain classes. I expect a rogue to do traps, a bard to sing/buff, a cleric to heal, etc... However...

If I encounter (as I did a few nights ago) a cleric who tells me they don't really heal because they are specced out as an undead slayer, I absolutely do NOT grab my "list of people I will never group with again" and furiously add their name because they are clearly a gimped, selfish, "you should just solo everything and what the hell are you doing in a group" sort of flawed, foolish toon.

Instead I pause momentarily in surprise, thinking, "Really? A cleric who doesn't heal?" And then I say, "Is the group filled? Great! Let's go!"

I think the player is the important factor, not the character he or she is playing. I love playing this game, and encountering a good group that works together is a genuine pleasure. And my definition of "good group" does not at all include what buffs they will cast on me or how uber their build or gear is.

If you take the most awesomely built, max-geared-out character and give it to a total d-bag to play, I am willing to bet most (if not all) of the other players would not enjoy a PUG with that character.

But if you take a flavor-built, non-cookie-cutter character who is perhaps not as strong as he or she could be, and that character is played by someone who understand the team concept and is willing to communicate and work together with the group to accomplish the mission, I am just as willing to bet that most of the other players would enjoy grouping with that character.

I can't imagine grouping with a sorcerer who killed 60% of the monsters encountered and thinking to myself that, without the Haste spells he cast on the party, that sorc would have been a wasted party slot.

Sometimes a party definitely needs a healer, or a trapmonkey, or a tank. In those cases I would mention that in the LFM, and if we had five people in the party and still no trapmonkey (for example), I would change the character list to only be visible to rogues. But outside of those specific situation, I would rather just play and adjust on the fly rather than eject people from my group because they are not built the "standard" way and then sit around waiting to fill the group for another twenty minutes.

I have encountered drow bards that tank, clerics that only fight undead and don't really heal, paladins who only use bows, barbarians that only use throwing weapons, arcanes who buff, arcanes who don't buff, fighters with quarterstaffs, and a rogue who fought with twin daggers. In every case the character was good or bad depending on the player controlling it, not on their build or gear.

Again, just my two cents.

[Yagi]

Idc who does or doesnt cast what as long as they do SOMETHING.

Personally my casters would hang themselves before they spend a moment walking slower then they have to, but thats my preference.

[varusso]

My basic problems with caster buffs is simple...I like casting the group ones, hate casting the individual ones.

Most people here appear (to me) to be just thinking about what buffs they need/want.

But when you're with 11 other people, and 11 people want stoneskin, resists, protection, blur, displacement and g. heroism it just gets old fast.

I'm all about being a team player, and never minded just being the arcane "buffbot" in raids, but with the u9 updates, my dps has changed. I'm getting crazy mad crits on my spells, and that helps the group as well.

I'm not saying I refuse to buff...but after all of this time why don't we have group spells accessible? I would love mass resists, stoneskin, blur and displacement to go with my protection, haste, and rage.

As much as I hate to say it, the days of non melees only being in the group to "buff us up,cc and move out of the way," are quickly coming to an end.

Either we start seeing useful mass buffs like the divines have, or things will have to change.

Oh, and I carry haste as well. You just have to get near me for it...im not running into the pack of mobs you're fighting. They're scarry.

I stopped doling out individual buffs, except in very select circumstances. I got tired of my resists not landing because of ship buffs, my blurs not sticking because of the -- whatever the hell cloak or trinket, etc. I also got tired of having to spend SP on all those buffs AND rage/haste and my aura and everything else. So now, I only dole out certain buffs, mostly the group ones like rage/haste. In nearly every group, someone offers everyone a chance to come hit their lvl 70+ ship. If you then enter the quest and ask for a fire resist, i will tell you to stuff it. If you DIE or we take longer than an hour -- by all means, come see me for the hook-up, party brother.

So what could we do to eliminate alot of this? Simple: our wizarding masters who wrote all of these spells that we use in our spellbooks now have seen fit to provide us with mass versions of several spells. It seems pretty obvious they should have come up with mass versions of ALL spells by now (except the ones intended to be self only of course).

So....one solution would be to put out mass versions of all spells, a level or two higher than the single version. Of course, this will run into the problem of limited spell slots, using a higher level spell for a lower level effect, and some of our spell levels are already pretty crowded.

Therefor an alternate solution: a new feat that makes any single-target spell a multi-target spell (for increased cost of course, but still cheaper than casting individually on everyone). This INCLUDES offensive spells such as suggestion, polar ray, etc. They all get a targeting ring like current mass-effect spells do. Obviously this makes it problematical if the class is feat-starved, so it needs to be tweaked a bit. It also means that the mass version (which is currently a higher lvl spell) would have the same DC as the single version. But we all take heighten anyway, right? Perhaps make the mass-feat a past life feat? One accessible to ALL caster classes.

And for those that will inevitably pounce on this and flame it unceasingly, I will even provide it for you free of charge:
< < EASY BUTTON > >

[Raithe]

Either we start seeing useful mass buffs like the divines have, or things will have to change.

I don't carry mass protect, because its a waste. Protection itself is really only useful in particular scenarios, where elemental damage is going to be fairly big. You don't generally need the other four elements in such a situation, and if you hotbar the one you do need, the process of hitting someone who appears to have taken damage (including yourself) is simple and fast.

Yes, there have always been poorly played casters who spend half of their sp bar at the beginning of a quest giving everyone every conceivable buff, often replicating buffs that the cleric, bard, ranger, or paladin has already cast on everyone. These casters are not the norm - not by a long shot.

Haste is probably the most essential buff I put on my caster when she is soloing. It allows for maximum melee damage avoidance, maximum horizontal jumping distance, and increased reflex save against traps and AoE attacks. If I consider it to be so useful when my sorc is the only one benefitting, you can be sure that I'll jump into a crowd of friendlies and cast it to make the quest run smoother, even if I have to do such 2 or 3 times to get everyone.

[Yagi]

Like a lot of other posters in this thread, I do tend to expect certain things from certain classes. I expect a rogue to do traps, a bard to sing/buff, a cleric to heal, etc... However...

If I encounter (as I did a few nights ago) a cleric who tells me they don't really heal because they are specced out as an undead slayer, I absolutely do NOT grab my "list of people I will never group with again" and furiously add their name because they are clearly a gimped, selfish, "you should just solo everything and what the hell are you doing in a group" sort of flawed, foolish toon.

Instead I pause momentarily in surprise, thinking, "Really? A cleric who doesn't heal?" And then I say, "Is the group filled? Great! Let's go!"

I think the player is the important factor, not the character he or she is playing. I love playing this game, and encountering a good group that works together is a genuine pleasure. And my definition of "good group" does not at all include what buffs they will cast on me or how uber their build or gear is.

If you take the most awesomely built, max-geared-out character and give it to a total d-bag to play, I am willing to bet most (if not all) of the other players would not enjoy a PUG with that character.

But if you take a flavor-built, non-cookie-cutter character who is perhaps not as strong as he or she could be, and that character is played by someone who understand the team concept and is willing to communicate and work together with the group to accomplish the mission, I am just as willing to bet that most of the other players would enjoy grouping with that character.

I can't imagine grouping with a sorcerer who killed 60% of the monsters encountered and thinking to myself that, without the Haste spells he cast on the party, that sorc would have been a wasted party slot.

Sometimes a party definitely needs a healer, or a trapmonkey, or a tank. In those cases I would mention that in the LFM, and if we had five people in the party and still no trapmonkey (for example), I would change the character list to only be visible to rogues. But outside of those specific situation, I would rather just play and adjust on the fly rather than eject people from my group because they are not built the "standard" way and then sit around waiting to fill the group for another twenty minutes.

I have encountered drow bards that tank, clerics that only fight undead and don't really heal, paladins who only use bows, barbarians that only use throwing weapons, arcanes who buff, arcanes who don't buff, fighters with quarterstaffs, and a rogue who fought with twin daggers. In every case the character was good or bad depending on the player controlling it, not on their build or gear.

Again, just my two cents.

Perhaps one day you will run into my "brawling" pure fighter that doesnt even use weapons!

[Enoach]

You mean the extra time of running around extremely fast? :P

Nope - I'm talking about the 30+ seconds wasted while standing around a chest telling people your loot is not your loot :P

[Raithe]

Nope - I'm talking about the 30+ seconds wasted while standing around a chest telling people your loot is not your loot :P

His (Zachski's) comment made me laugh, because its the utter truth. No one spends 30 seconds at a chest, and even if they did, 30 seconds is only 1/8th of a 4 minute haste.

Haste is useful for making movement faster, it's the ultimate striding spell. It saves resources simply because it allows a group to move through a larger portion of a dungeon without having other buffs expire. There are many short-term buffs that are quite powerful - inspire courage, displacement, divine power, etc. Haste makes all of these buffs slightly more effective and efficient.

This thread to me is not about excluding people that don't carry haste (I would hardly care as all of my characters carry pots or have the spell). To me, it's more about the argument of whether haste is worth it or not. In my estimation, haste is right at the limit of being overpowered (since they reduced it to 15% attack speed) and complements other spells well enough to make it one of the best spells to use in this game.

[varusso]

Think of haste as a 'buff extender'. The longer it takes for you to get from point a to point b, the more ALL of your buffs are ticking uselessly, especially if you are not actually fighting something at the time. If yor party isnt hasted WHILE fighting, then you are using up your other buff timers needlessly. Even if everyone is wearing strider 30's, they arent ATTACKING any faster. Personally, I want to get the most out of ALL of my buffs, not to mention getting the most out of the other 5 ppl in the party. Its also BORING to walk through a quest, when you can RUN.

[Enoach]

First I would like to say that I am in the Camp that Haste is just one of those spells that packs such great benefits directly as well as all of the benefits that it brings indirectly, suchas allowing other short term buffs to be utilized more before they wear out. The oppertunity cost is extreamly high to opt to use the spell slot for something else.

With that in mind - buffs do get wasted and Extend is not always necessary (even more unecessary if you are hasted). So maybe my 2 coppers to Sorcerers is that even without Extend Haste can still be very beneficial to the party as a whole. I believe people will come to understand that Sorcerers will become increasingly likely to not have the extend feat.

[curboUS]

We can always start to LFM like this then : '1 spot Caster (with Haste and using it) 1 spot ...'

Previously 'caster' implied have haste and the use of it, at least it did in Europe. Ofc the changes to extend impacts the game now. But lets be honest - when you see '1 spot caster' don't think that group want's one that carries haste and uses it ?

Do we now need to add a 'haste' qualifier in LFM's ? Really hope not.

If you have a specific need then you should post that in the LFM. If your specific need need can be met by buying pots then you should definitely post it in the LFM. "Caster needed" should not be interpreted by everyone as "Haste-bot" needed; it should and likely will be interpreted to mean the party is looking for a wizard or a sorcerer, primarily for offensive support.

The assumptions of the person posting the LFM are not the responsibility of the person responding to the LFM. Part of the fun is working with the group you have. Maybe you are short on tanks, or short on casters, or short on healers - who cares? That is part of the game, and the game is fun. Deal with it and enjoy yourself while doing so.

Or you could start a guild and set out strict requirements for all players regarding what spells they must have, what skills they must have, what gear they must carry, etc... That way when you group with them there won't be the issues of players not having the spell/gear/skills they are "expected" to have.

I don't think it is unreasonable to ask a sorcerer at the start of a quest, "Can you haste me?" If he or she does, that's great. Some people even thank them. If they can't or won't Haste you, chug a pot and move on, or get a hireling that casts Haste. That seems more reasonable to me than telling every sorcerer in the game that they should carry Haste and that it is a mandatory function for them to cast it on everyone in the group.

While you have a lot of valid points mate (and agre in principle with most) you didn't really answer 'But lets be honest - when you see '1 spot caster' don't think that group want's one that carries haste and uses it ?' except with 'The assumptions of the person posting the LFM are not the responsibility of the person responding to the LFM.'.

Imo - the responde in this case is applying to a Job that for most means a given skillset. Say a Rogue applying to a Rogue spot (last in a party/raid), and havent raised his rogue skills since lv 1 (DPS only rogue) should tell the leader in advance - sorry cant do traps. Just think von5 elite around lv 12/13 and you see what i mean.

I would like to say that carrying haste and using it does not make you a 'hastebot', it just makes you a more efficient partymember than without.

[knightgf]

If I didn't take Haste, what the chuffing heck would I carry in that slot instead?

Sleet storm. It's a party buff.

[Zachski]

Sleet storm. It's a party buff.

A direct upgrade of Grease as a matter of fact

Carry it. Use it frequently. Your party will LOVE you.

[goodspeed]

id take haste, not right away but id take it later mainly just for being lazy and throwing it on to run fast. Rage naw. I mean a wizard would maybe carry it but I wouldn't.

I had a favored soul yelling out for haste and rage constantly in devils one night. Hell haste was still up and he'd be yelling for it. So what you wanna sit there for about 30 seconds until the next wave comes while the spell expires? Then he started flippn out their wasn't rage.

I told the cheap bastard to go buy pots in house k. 45pp. Less with haggle. I got stacks of both on my barb.

Still annoying lil ***** aside, your inviting a class into your party. If I invited a wiz id expect prolly cc and buffs. Definitely buffs. If I invited a sorc it would be primarily for dmg. Odds are one that wanted to survive would have a resist energy and some others in there but as far as a group buffer, I think your looking to the wrong class. Don't expect something from a possibility. Know something from a sure thing. If ya wan't haste and GH and rage and god knows what else, then ya need a wiz. Because if they haven't got it then id like to know why. It's not like it's hard to find scrolls, **** things are available everywhere.

But being ticked because someone didn't want to take a buff (even if it's a very good buff) is kinda foolish. just ask before inviting. Wala huge fu's and drama solved before it happens in party chat.

[varusso]

id take haste, not right away but id take it later mainly just for being lazy and throwing it on to run fast. Rage naw. I mean a wizard would maybe carry it but I wouldn't.

I had a favored soul yelling out for haste and rage constantly in devils one night. Hell haste was still up and he'd be yelling for it. So what you wanna sit there for about 30 seconds until the next wave comes while the spell expires? Then he started flippn out their wasn't rage.

I told the cheap bastard to go buy pots in house k. 45pp. Less with haggle. I got stacks of both on my barb.

Still annoying lil ***** aside, your inviting a class into your party. If I invited a wiz id expect prolly cc and buffs. Definitely buffs. If I invited a sorc it would be primarily for dmg. Odds are one that wanted to survive would have a resist energy and some others in there but as far as a group buffer, I think your looking to the wrong class. Don't expect something from a possibility. Know something from a sure thing. If ya wan't haste and GH and rage and god knows what else, then ya need a wiz. Because if they haven't got it then id like to know why. It's not like it's hard to find scrolls, **** things are available everywhere.

But being ticked because someone didn't want to take a buff (even if it's a very good buff) is kinda foolish. just ask before inviting. Wala huge fu's and drama solved before it happens in party chat.

Wanna hear something funny?
I remember not long ago standing in a tavern and reading a bio on a Wizzie (I think he was even a TR). It said essentially that he was a wizard, therefore didnt have enough Sp to buff you, he was a nuker, and if you wanted buffs, you should have recruited a sorc.

[goodspeed]

well that's all well and good for em lol.

[mobrien316]

While you have a lot of valid points mate (and agre in principle with most) you didn't really answer 'But lets be honest - when you see '1 spot caster' don't think that group want's one that carries haste and uses it ?' except with 'The assumptions of the person posting the LFM are not the responsibility of the person responding to the LFM.'.

Imo - the responde in this case is applying to a Job that for most means a given skillset. Say a Rogue applying to a Rogue spot (last in a party/raid), and havent raised his rogue skills since lv 1 (DPS only rogue) should tell the leader in advance - sorry cant do traps. Just think von5 elite around lv 12/13 and you see what i mean.

I would like to say that carrying haste and using it does not make you a 'hastebot', it just makes you a more efficient partymember than without.

Read my earlier response, #186 in this thread.

If I post an LFM and an arcane joins and then says "I don't do buffs" I would probably pause a moment in surprise and then check to see if the group was filled so we could start. The only time I could really see myself not wanting to group with that person is if they said, "I don't do buffs, I don't do DPS, I don't heal, I don't fight, etc..." And then they put on their underwater action item and sat at the bottom of the nearest pool until the end of the quest. Other than that, if a players is trying to do a good job, that is the most important thing.

The only exceptions would be if there was a specific quest that required a specific skill (such as a trapmonkey) and then I would post "need a trapmonkey" in the LFM. If a rogue filled the last spot and then told me "I am DPS - I don't do traps" I would probably be a bit annoyed at his/her inability to read and comprehend, but then I would want to start the party.

Basically, when I post an LFM I am looking for five other people to play DDO with. If they are good players it does not matter a great deal how uber their characters are or what spells/gear/skills they have - it will likely be an enjoyable PUG. If the player is a total tool it really doesn't matter how uber their character is - it is unlikely to be a fun PUG.

[altrocks]

Read my earlier response, #186 in this thread.

If I post an LFM and an arcane joins and then says "I don't do buffs" I would probably pause a moment in surprise and then check to see if the group was filled so we could start. The only time I could really see myself not wanting to group with that person is if they said, "I don't do buffs, I don't do DPS, I don't heal, I don't fight, etc..." And then they put on their underwater action item and sat at the bottom of the nearest pool until the end of the quest. Other than that, if a players is trying to do a good job, that is the most important thing.

The only exceptions would be if there was a specific quest that required a specific skill (such as a trapmonkey) and then I would post "need a trapmonkey" in the LFM. If a rogue filled the last spot and then told me "I am DPS - I don't do traps" I would probably be a bit annoyed at his/her inability to read and comprehend, but then I would want to start the party.

Basically, when I post an LFM I am looking for five other people to play DDO with. If they are good players it does not matter a great deal how uber their characters are or what spells/gear/skills they have - it will likely be an enjoyable PUG. If the player is a total tool it really doesn't matter how uber their character is - it is unlikely to be a fun PUG.

Our guild tries to build itself up in a similar way. Get a bunch of people together that like to play and have fun, help each other out and get better that way. We've had a few people in the past that were more about being "uber" than having fun and it... just doesn't work out.

Personally, I think people should remember that the point of the game is to have fun, regardless of anything else. If it's become work for you and you stress out about xp/min or can't be bothered to help someone out for a few minutes I would really have to ask why you would keep playing.

+1.

[Postumus]

Also, always carry rage/haste if you are playing an arcane.

For Sorcerers: Haste yes. Rage no.