PSA Haste does not waste a valuable spell slot

[Darkrok]

BTW Savants from lv 18+ have 5 lv3 slots.

Incorrect.

20th [snip] 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 3 3

Source: http://ddowiki.com/page/Sorcerer

[Esserbe]

He's referring to the fact that the main elemental direct damage spells (Fireball, Acid Blast, Lightning Bolt, Frost Lance) are given as Spell-Like Abilities and their in-slot version can thus be replaced with something else.

Acid Blast is the only one I'd consider to be still useful in-slot for an Earth Savant, since they have little direct damage available, whereas Fire, Air and Water have other higher-level DDs to cycle, like DBF, Meteor Swarm, Cone of Cold, Polar Ray, Otiluke's Freezing Sphere, Ball Lightning and Chain Lightning.

[Theolin]

I look at it this way I always cast blur, resist, and haste because

A) its easier to pike after
B) it keeps the meat sheilds / cannon fodder up longer so they can do my bidding longer

And the most impotant
C) it saves 30% of the healers blue bar that's not needed for the meat sacks so they can use it on my dumb a** and can raise it when I trip on a rock and die, or do something particuarly stupid and yell "hjeal me"

/sarcasm ... just in case someone missed the sarcasm

[varusso]

So should the next PSA be "Haste clickies aren't a second choice for GS items"? Here the melees are choosing a specific build decision over haste.. and whining about sorcs doing the same thing. LOL

When a caster has to craft a GS item in order to slot rage/haste spells on their bars, then you have a valid point for why it would be a build choice. You KNOW that the best way for a melee to be more effective in their role (dps) is to get a better wpn that deals more damage. One of THE best ways for a caster to be more effective in groups is to carry rage/haste. Comparing that to a melee choosing to craft a wpn as their first GS item vs crafting a haste clicky is just silly. Seriously.

[Yaga_Nub]

But none could quite capture the essence of stupidity, this is beyond full-******.

But...but...but, you're never supposed to go full-******. Going beyond is just unthinkable!

[Milfeulle]

True, final and only answear:

If Sorcerer spend its time & SP for Buffing melees its less time&SP for killing stuff, and rising my killcount.

I buff melee with haste, rage, blur, etc with my Sorc, and I still have 100+ kill counts in Shroud.

[mobrien316]

An LFM that says 'caster needed' is actually more complex than that. It actually reads like this:
Need caster who can haste/rage, and possibly may need resists/blur.
If Wiz: Bring CCs/death spells and situational nukes.
If Sorc: bring nukes and situational CCs. Death spells may be optional.
If Bard: Bring songs and CCs. Wish you had resists. You may be called upon to spot heal.

Thats alot of stuff crammed into one little phrase, I know. But it *IS* the standard. A caster is expected to be much more than just a rage/haste bot. This is just the way groups work. If you want to be part of a group that is just 6 people soling the same instance, thats fine. But that is not the standard.

I disagree. Most especially with the sentiment that if my sorcerer doesn't carry the spells you want him to carry then he is essentially looking to be part of a group that is just six people soloing the same instance.

My sorcerer carries Haste and I use it when asked, and sometimes when not asked. But I don't like the outlook of of some people (and since I've never grouped with you, I'm not talking about you, Varusso,) "Oh, good - a sorcerer! Haste me, Rage me, and GH me... Now!"

The only time I would be annoyed with a caster is if he did nothing. If I simply can't live without Haste, or Rage, or Greater Heroism, and I refuse to use clickies or pots for them, then I should post that in the LFM. I disagree with the notion that if sorcerers don't have specific spells they are gimped, selfish, non-team-players, or essentially soloers who have inexplicably joined a group.

If you want to be part of a group that is just 6 people soling the same instance, thats fine. But that is not the standard.

I don't see how not carrying or casting specific buffs is the same as ignoring the party as though you were six people soloing the same instance. My sorcerer contributes a lot to every party he is in, and those contributions are completely independent of how many times he cast Haste or Rage during the quest.

I understand what a lot of people are saying on this topic, but it just rubs me the wrong way to see players with the attitude that other people had better do certain things to help you and your character or they are somehow gimped or selfish.

As I wrote earlier, I find part of the fun of this game to be grouping with different individuals who all have different ideas of how to play their character. I often learn something new, which I think is great. I would not want to play if there was a standard, cookie-cutter build for every class and anyone who deviated slightly from that build was deemed selfish or a waste of a party slot.

I find that by far the best way for me to proceed is to hope for the best but plan for the worst. I carry clickies and pots for everything I can because I am prepared to take care of myself, but if another character offers to heal/buff me or they agree to do so after I politely ask them, that's great.

I actually joined a PUG with my cleric where I was ordered to stand at the back, avoid melee or anything to draw aggro, and just heal the party. In another PUG I was "encouraged" to stand at the back of the group and heal everyone, and warned that if I decided to "screw around" by engaging in melee and someone died it would be my fault. I dropped both of those groups instantly upon completion of the first quest. I don't like being told how I should run my character (I see "asking" for buffs/heals as being much different than being told, "Haste me!" or "Heal me!") and I am willing to bet no one else does, either.

Just my two cents...

[Chubsta]

It seems to me that in the last year or so people have been actively competing in who can be the most self sufficient and individual, in a group based game.

How long until "I'm not going to do any CC; you have stunning blow and trip for that. Be self sufficient!"?

I like helping out my party members, providing longer lasting or more powerful buffs than they can get from pots, working as a team to complete the quest and pooling our resources instead of everyone being their own island. Am I in the minority?

This. +1
After reading the responses in this thread I am very glad I mainly stick to guild runs. There is a reason this game has different classes and not 1 class that does it all.

[varusso]

BIG SNIP of multiple posts

OK, its pretty obvious to me by now that you are here for the argument and not the debate, so I am not going to spend alot of time on this one.

Every person in this thread KNOWS that the standard is for casters to carry rage/haste. Your main point seems to be less that you think haste is not worth carrying, and more that you think no one should be allowed to TELL you that you should carry it (even though you know you should, based on the standard). That about right?

And the whole basis for JUSTIFYING this argument is that everyone can just carry haste pots/clickies. Now, I KNOW that you know that is less efficient than a caster casting haste. The fact that you keep dodging that assertion only emphasizes it. Your assertion is that if everyone can have access to it (via subpar means) then they should carry it if they want it. Now, that is fine in a group where it has been established that that is the expectation (BEFORE the quest is started). But in a REAL group, we all know that is not the standard.

Now lets take this one step further.

By your logic:
1) If we want traps disarmed, we should each have a rog splash, rather than adding a rogue to the group.
1a) If we dont want to be bothered with disarming traps, we should all splash 2 lvls of rogue or monk, and/or have ridiculously high HP so we can just run through every trap on casual to elite to epic.
2) If we want heals, we should
2a) Bring pots -- which are not sufficient in high-damage situations
2b) Use wands -- which means having UMD or healer splashes, not to mention swapping out primary wpns
2c) Use scrolls -- see wands
2d) Bring a pocket healer -- works fine in most non-raid situations, but that means only 3 players and 3 gimpbots (since everyone is being self-sufficient, you better not expect someone else to use their hireling to heal you, so you better have your own)
3) If we want someone to tank, we better bring our own AC/DR/HP -- and dont forget your stuff from #2 while you are tanking
4) If we want CCs/death spells, better 'splash' 18 levels of arcane into our builds
5) If we want ANY form of buffs, better be able to scroll/wand/pot/ship buff them (and hope no one dies or the quest/raid takes less than an hour)

...Thats all I really care to bother with on that silly list.

You can play your toon however you like. You can build for whatever you want to do. Thats your choice, its your right to do so. *BUT* when you get in a group, what YOU want is overridden by what the GROUP wants. When you get in a group with other people, its no longer about what the individual wants, but about what best benefits the group. You KNOW the group will want haste. If you are the type of person who thinks YOUR game experience is greater than 5-11 other players, then the problem is not the other players.

Wizzies really have no excuse for not bringing rage/haste to a group, even if they dont use it in solo. Slot it for the group, adjust to the play, then swap it back when you go back to soloing.
Sorcs, I give a LITTLE leeway to -- at low levels, when you actually have to choose between things like fireball, rage, and haste due to only having 1-2 slots. At higher levels, when you have plenty of lvl 3 slots AND higher-level/better nukes to choose from -- no excuses.

[varusso]

snip

Its great that you bring all of the OTHER standard sorc things to a party (namely boom boom zzot). But the standard IS for arcanes to carry rage and haste (again, sorcs get some leeway on this at lower lvls, due to slot restrictions). If a sorc feels that they dont HAVE TO bring the group-standard spells to a group, then they better be WF so they can heal themselves (why should a white hat do the expected standard of healing either?), they better be able to survive traps (why should a rogue do the expected standard of disarming them?), they better be able to tank all of the mobs or kill them before it becomes an issue (why should a melee take a beating for the rest of the party?)...do you see where this is going?

In generalized group play, the rules are different than when you are soloing or with a static group (as they may cover the 'roles' in different, non-standard ways). If that is something you dont want to do, then either solo, where you get to make all the decisions, or tell the group right away. Then they can either decide whether they want to play your non-standard way, or replace you. Fact is, most casters who refuse to haste/rage dont reveal this fact until after the quest is already started. Why? The same reason non-trap rogues and non-healing white hats dont reveal their playstyles until they THINK the group is too invested to reform without them and will try to 'tough it out' instead.

Everyone posting in this thread KNOWS the standard is for arcanes to bring rage/haste. Pretending you dont simply makes you look like a fool. Arcanes ALSO have other jobs in a group, and you can do them all while still maintaining rage/haste, especially at higher levels.

BTW those are all generalized 'you' not you specifically.

[Khurse]

Wow.
I did not think this would go 9 pages.

Anyway since a number of you have not been able to read through those tears of rage welling up in your eyes as you remember that time the melee didn't really sound that sincere when he asked "pretty please,if it's not too much of a bother could you cast rage on us?" I'll reiterate

1) If you don't want to carry or cast haste more power to you. I don't want to group with you, but since I do expect arcanes at levels 18-20 to carry and cast haste you don't want to group with me either. So it works out.

2) Haste is not a waste of a valuable spell slot. (which is what the original post said) It is not better for DPS to carry some other spell. There is no spell in the game that will add as much DPS in the average group for 20 spell points as haste.

3) it was really just a surprise. I had no idea that any arcanes at/near cap did not carry or cast the spell. I am now aware they do, and will have to start asking pug casters if they carry and cast it.

[Khurse]

But none could quite capture the essence of stupidity, this is beyond full-******.

Guess it's a good think I didn't mention one of them only has 25% fort.

[Ancient]

By your logic:
1) If we want traps disarmed, we should each have a rog splash, rather than adding a rogue to the group.
1a) If we dont want to be bothered with disarming traps, we should all splash 2 lvls of rogue or monk, and/or have ridiculously high HP so we can just run through every trap on casual to elite to epic.
2) If we want heals, we should
2a) Bring pots -- which are not sufficient in high-damage situations
2b) Use wands -- which means having UMD or healer splashes, not to mention swapping out primary wpns
2c) Use scrolls -- see wands
2d) Bring a pocket healer -- works fine in most non-raid situations, but that means only 3 players and 3 gimpbots (since everyone is being self-sufficient, you better not expect someone else to use their hireling to heal you, so you better have your own)
3) If we want someone to tank, we better bring our own AC/DR/HP -- and dont forget your stuff from #2 while you are tanking
4) If we want CCs/death spells, better 'splash' 18 levels of arcane into our builds
5) If we want ANY form of buffs, better be able to scroll/wand/pot/ship buff them (and hope no one dies or the quest/raid takes less than an hour)

2d, 4 and 5 aren't quite accurate, and you forgot #6 expect to be teased by the rest of the guild if you can't.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=258855

But even in a "self-sufficient" guild like BYOH, most of the arcanes carry rage/haste. There isnt really a good reason not to have them.

[varusso]

Wow.
I did not think this would go 9 pages.

DND -- we KNOW drama.

Did you HONESTLY think people would not JUMP at the chance to argue over haste and rage buffs? I mean come on its been a week or more since the last one. We were overdue.

[Enoach]

I find these types of posts so amusing...

To the OP, what I see as the failure was the lack of communication as it concerns what was expected from the two Sorcerers.

As pointed out Haste even in its lowest form (pots) is beneficial. It is more beneficial during combat than it is out of combat, but beneficial none-the-less.

Every person has a different idea of what the want to do with their resources. Some, as pointed out in previous posts prefer to use their resources to help the group by buffing to enhance output or decrease the effects of incoming damage, others by reducing incoming damage.

With the new PrE's available to Sorcerers the community is now seeing a broader gap between Bards - Wizards - Sorcerers. With fewer feats available and with Extend no longer benifiting many persistant AoE damage spells, sorcerers are contimplating if this feat is more useful to them then the other feats as they need to trade out for a Spell Focus feat that many did not include in their builds prior to these PrEs.

We have come to expect different build types from the melee that run around - High AC intimatanks to low AC punching bags. Melee that have no idea what intimadate is or how to use trip, sunder or stun. But we can't be bothered with being put off due to a Arcane not carrying Haste, even to the point that we would ban them to obscurity. To that I say HOGWASH.

With the latest update and with all the PrEs now in the game, I believe we as a community need to start rethinking how we define the roles that could be filled by each class. I'm not saying that a Sorcerer could not fill the parties need for haste/rage/resist energy [not sure why people don't hold paladins/rangers responsible for this - maybe because its difficult to justify Extend Feat on these classes?? yah think] just that maybe the group should be looking more for a Bard or Wizard if this is the desired requirements to be filled.

[varusso]

2d, 4 and 5 aren't quite accurate, and you forgot #6 expect to be teased by the rest of the guild if you can't.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=258855

But even in a "self-sufficient" guild like BYOH, most of the arcanes carry rage/haste. There isnt really a good reason not to have them.

2a-2d are alternatives to one another. You can do any one (or all of them) for the result outlined in 2
4 should probably read 'if you want RELIABLE DCS on...' such and such '...in high level content'
5 (and all of them really) presumes you are not already playing a class capable of these things via spells/abilities.

[Khurse]

With the latest update and with all the PrEs now in the game, I believe we as a community need to start rethinking how we define the roles that could be filled by each class. I'm not saying that a Sorcerer could not fill the parties need for haste/rage/resist energy [not sure why people don't hold paladins/rangers responsible for this - maybe because its difficult to justify Extend Feat on these classes?? yah think] just that maybe the group should be looking more for a Bard or Wizard if this is the desired requirements to be filled.

Well I'd have a hard time holding Paladins or Rangers responsible for casting haste or rage, being as they don't get the spell.

And you'll also find that the OP doesn't mention extend, not do most (if not all) the posts saying casters should carry haste. If you have extend great, (my Sorc does, but it's hardly mandatory) if you don't that's fine.
But (again) if you think you're going to contribute more DPS to a party through another 3rd level spell, you're wrong.

[Zachski]

On one hand, the melee who said that he carried a haste clickie "for soloing" and yet demanded the sorc with the spell to use it "for party" was being a hypocrite... (seriously, you can claim less efficiency all you want, but if it's valuable for the sorc, it's valuable for YOU because then YOU'D be boosting party DPS by 15%.)

On the other hand... Chain Missile? Really? You'd really use that over Haste?

Cutting through the entitlement and counter entitlement (and for the record, I don't consider the topic creator among these), the real issue is that what is "expected" of people can easily turn into "you must do this because you are x"

And at the same time, reading all "expected" as "you must do this because you are x" is causing a backlash that essentially says "I'm not going to be a party player because that's what they demand of me."

Quite frankly, since Haste is faster than Expeditious Retreat, there's no reason not to take Haste, even for soloing. A faster caster is a healthy caster. That first spell slot could then go to something more useful, like... oh, I dunno, Merfolk's Blessing.

Extend is... optional, I suppose. It makes SP go further, but the only sorc that could reasonably take it is a Human Sorc. Which isn't saying much since most Sorcs are human, but still.

D&D is a group game. Coincidentally, many of the buffs that benefit group play also benefit solo play. My bard never goes anywhere in a dungeon without his song(s) active, despite the fact that he's the only one there-- simply because it's an excellent increase in his own DPS.

On the other hand, I just got a funny idea. What if Haste increased the casting speed of Somatic spells by 15%? Then we'd never have to worry about a situation like in the OP ever again. Kinda.

[Enoach]

Sorry, my point was to the resist energy.

Extend is not needed to make Haste beneficial as I have seen usually much of the "Extra time" of an extended Haste does go to Waste [pun intended]

To be a bit clearer on my point - We are in a time of transition where the Expected Standard will be deviated from. Only time will tell which side of the arguement will come out ahead.

[Zachski]

Sorry, my point was to the resist energy.

Extend is not needed to make Haste beneficial as I have seen usually much of the "Extra time" of an extended Haste does go to Waste [pun intended]

To be a bit clearer on my point - We are in a time of transition where the Expected Standard will be deviated from. Only time will tell which side of the arguement will come out ahead.

You mean the extra time of running around extremely fast? :P

Personally, I think that Sorcs, Bards, and Wizards probably should be contributing to the party with Haste, whatever else they happen to be doing. On the other hand, I think that if you're another class with a Haste clickie available to you, you should be contributing as well. Probably at the beginning before you Madstone and/or Rage (if you're a Barbarian)

Pots only go so far, especially when you can't drink them due to being raged or madstoned