PSA Haste does not waste a valuable spell slot

[Dirichlet]

This thread confuses me. I have one simple question:

If I didn't take Haste, what the chuffing heck would I carry in that slot instead?

[noinfo]

This thread confuses me. I have one simple question:

If I didn't take Haste, what the chuffing heck would I carry in that slot instead?

No idea personally I would find it hard to replace Haste and even Rage with any other 3rd level spell. They are that good as a caster. I do object to melee who epect it thrown whenever they think its best instead of tactically using a pot or clickie.

[svinja]

Wow, the amount of casters who are selfish enough to basically grief their melee over something as trivial to provide as haste is sad. My main is a wizard and no I do not expect everyone to carry haste clickies or rely on the crappy haste pots, it is much easier for me to provide haste so it is normal that they expect me to do this. I also do not expect every person in the group to have the Kundarak Delving Boots on my FVS, I pass out FoM if it's needed. You are being completely unreasonable.

I have my own issues with what people expect from casters but not keeping the party hasted just seems stupid and petty. Being expected to provide haste is not an unacceptable attack on your right to play the character the way you want, get over yourselves. I even feel embarrassed when I forget to haste and someone has to ask.

The only thing I don't like are those people who just CAN'T resist jumping or tumbling around the group and miss out on buffs, then ask to be buffed. Especially at the start of the quest - I am NOT going to tell you to come get your buffs. Stand and wait with the group like the other 5 of us are doing if you want them. Or people who don't understand what "X on me" means, so they miss out on haste/mass cure/whatever and then request another one.

[Astraghal]

So sad to be so needy. Move past the I need this and that, and yes there are times when burst healing is required at end game, but there is no buffs that I cannot provide myself and I do play at end game and with others equally able to provide for themselves.

Haha mate I carry around 100 Silver Flame Healing Potions, Epic Goggles of Time Sensing, a Shroud Haste clicky, Epic Brawns Spirits, Epic Mask of Comedy, Morah's Belt, Nyoko's Necklace, Pouch of Jerky, Greataxe of the Chained Soldier, Kormor's Belt, Kundarak Delving Boots, Firestorm Greaves, Cloak of Ice, Epic Helm of the Red Dragon, Greater Nimble Trinket, 3 x Planar Girds, 2 x Visors of the Flesh Render guards, Potions of Resist Fire/Cold/Electric/Acid/Sonic, Remove Curse, Remove Disease, Remove Blindness, Neutralize Poison, Rage, Haste on my FIGHTER lol!

Don't talk to me about how to be self-sufficient, I know how inefficient it is to buff myself from potions and clickies. I know in most situations what buffs are needed, when they are needed and how effective they will be.

I also know a selfish, sullen, obstinate attitude when I run into one in a game.

[phillymiket]

Of course its a really great spell.. so why would a melee choose to build a GS weapon that only increases his dmg and kill count over a haste clicky which buffs everyone and boosts the whole parties DPS?

(btw i don't currently have a sorc.. I do have a few wizards though and the whole "your only here to be my personal haste bot because i'm too lazy to get a clickie for it" **** effects us as well")

Amusingly I many times use my clickies when people beg for haste to save SP. But please explain to me why its acceptable for melees to build a Min II or something before they build a haste clicky but its not acceptable for sorcs to not have haste. Because as far as I see it its the same thing. Both could have haste to share with the party and are choosing something that only benefits them directly rather than being a "team player"

It's the same thing for a melee to not have a boss beater in favor of a haste clickie as a caster to not have haste in favor of a another spell that they can replicate the effects with other spells?

Not at all the same thing.

It is acceptable because a melee having a MinII or a LitII contributes more to the party then the Haste clickie does. Or do you disagree with that?

I'm not saying it's "unacceptable" for a caster to not have Haste but I am saying that having Haste contributes more to the party then a DSP spell in that slot.

Ok. You don't have a sorc.
Do you mind me asking again what spells your wizard has at third level that you choose over Haste?

[noinfo]

Wow, the amount of casters who are selfish enough to basically grief their melee over something as trivial to provide as haste is sad. My main is a wizard and no I do not expect everyone to carry haste clickies or rely on the crappy haste pots, it is much easier for me to provide haste so it is normal that they expect me to do this. I also do not expect every person in the group to have the Kundarak Delving Boots on my FVS, I pass out FoM if it's needed. You are being completely unreasonable.

I have my own issues with what people expect from casters but not keeping the party hasted just seems stupid and petty. Being expected to provide haste is not an unacceptable attack on your right to play the character the way you want, get over yourselves. I even feel embarrassed when I forget to haste and someone has to ask.

The only thing I don't like are those people who just CAN'T resist jumping or tumbling around the group and miss out on buffs, then ask to be buffed. Especially at the start of the quest - I am NOT going to tell you to come get your buffs. Stand and wait with the group like the other 5 of us are doing if you want them.

Comparing haste pots and clickies which are readily available to Kundrak boots (raid gear) is a fair comparison how?
I am all for casters throwing haste at tactical points for dps boost, at the same time if they are cc, instakilling or however they want to play that is making getting through the quest easier I am happy for it, at the end of it I will have an opion of them based on how well they managed it not by if they kept me hasted or not. If that PM has wailed all but 2 mobs in the group I will happily drink a pot and take out those last two. If the enchanter AM has mass held the mobs cool I drink a pot and kill etc. Is haste more sp efficient? yep, but in either of these cases as an example I would rather them do that then provide a haste. Of course doing that and haste would be great But if needed I can provide the latter.

If you get a kick out of buffing etc great. On a caster I can guarantee (particulary epics) GH, blur and the required resists. Rage and haste at key points though these last two are not essential.

[caberonia]

It's the same thing for a melee to not have a boss beater in favor of a haste clickie as a caster to not have haste in favor of a another spell that they can replicate the effects with other spells?

Not at all the same thing.

It is acceptable because a melee having a MinII or a LitII contributes more to the party then the Haste clickie does. Or do you disagree with that?

I'm not saying it's "unacceptable" for a caster to not have Haste but I am saying that having Haste contributes more to the party then a DSP spell in that slot.

Ok. You don't have a sorc.
Do you mind me asking again what spells your wizard has at third level that you choose over Haste?

So a sorcs DPS spell doesn't contribute to the party but a melee having a GS weapon does?

And btw I always have haste.. but to me this thread isn't about what i do or don't do but what people expect of everyone else while ignoring the fact that they do exactly the same thing when making build choices.

Haste for everyone is > than anyone persons DPS spell OR min II in most situations(if a mob has a physical DR isn't a DPS spell going to help just as much as a DR breaker?). The fact that people complain about one and not the other is what irks me, If every caster is EXPECTED to have haste. Then every melee should be EXPECTED to have a haste clicky.

[darkminstrel]

Hi,
Is this a new thing?

Yeah. I've noticed that up-and-coming sorcs just don't bother with it anymore. Being on my pure DPS life...it's bloody annoying!

[Esserbe]

There are level 3 "DPS spells" one would use past like level 10 that aren't Lightning Bolt?

[phillymiket]

No idea personally I would find it hard to replace Haste and even Rage with any other 3rd level spell. They are that good as a caster. I do object to melee who epect it thrown whenever they think its best instead of tactically using a pot or clickie.

And btw I always have haste

So wait you do carry Haste?

Ok, so you don't argue that there are better spells for level three then Haste.

Do you argue that Haste isn't a good damaging spell for the SP used?
I would counter that argument if you did.

Are you just being contrary because you don't like the "HJASTE ME!!" attitude of some people?

What is your argument again?

[thegreatneil]

This thread confuses me. I have one simple question:

If I didn't take Haste, what the chuffing heck would I carry in that slot instead?

Dunno what a "chuffing" is.

Sorc: Depends on the build.
*Air: Rage, lighting bolt, displacement, Chain missile.
*earth: acid blast instead.
*water: frost lance instead.

CC wiz: Deep slumber, slow, displacement, hold person, Suggestion.

On my wis i have haste, i think.....

On my bard yes haste displacement rage all that (and extend).

On a sorc.... well im not sure if i would take it.

Also I'm seeing an issue here. Some seem to be grouping haste with rage, displacement and resist energy/pro energy.

From a selfish Point of view, why WOULD you take haste?
*+1 reflex....so my wiz reflex is now 10? great
*+1 ac....so his ac is now 8. wonderful.
* movement speed....expeditious retreat.

-So melee can swing faster/move faster.....to the group of mobs I'm going to wail.
-In a raid: usually there is a bard.

[taurean430]

So wait you do carry Haste?

Ok, so you don't argue that there are better spells for level three then Haste.

Do you argue that Haste isn't a good damaging spell for the SP used?
I would counter that argument if you did.

Are you just being contrary because you don't like the "HJASTE ME!!" attitude of some people?

What is your argument again?

You must spread reputation around before giving it to philymiket again

[caberonia]

So wait you do carry Haste?

Ok, so you don't argue that there are better spells for level three then Haste.

Do you argue that Haste isn't a good damaging spell for the SP used?
I would counter that argument if you did.

Are you just being contrary because you don't like the "HJASTE ME!!" attitude of some people?

What is your argument again?

That if the effects of something are so great that you EXPECT someone else to have it.. then you should have a clicky or pot form of it as well (if one is available of course.. haste is very available in clicky and pot forms). That way you don't have any issue when someone doesn't have it.

[fluffybunnywilson]

Amusingly I many times use my clickies when people beg for haste to save SP. But please explain to me why its acceptable for melees to build a Min II or something before they build a haste clicky but its not acceptable for sorcs to not have haste. Because as far as I see it its the same thing. Both could have haste to share with the party and are choosing something that only benefits them directly rather than being a "team player"

At least in part because it means that the Sorc has been neglecting Haste for at least levels 6-13 (and probably levels 6-17 for most players) while the melee character has only been neglecting Haste for level 17-20 by making a MinII before making a Haste clicky because the big majority of players only start running the Shroud at level 17-ish.

Also, I'd suggest making a Raise Dead clicky before making a Haste clicky. That will benefit the party much more than the Haste clicky even if the Haste clicky is used more often.

[noinfo]

I also know a selfish, sullen, obstinate attitude when I run into one in a game.

Me I tend to recognise the ones who prefer to complain about others then actually get in and play. Its not rocket science really, if you are not getting what you perceive as what you need from xyz then don't group with them in future. There are key buffs that it can't be argued that make things go smoother and anyone who says that getting a 4 min haste is not more convenient than a 30 second or 90 second clickie haste is lying. At the same time anyone who says that that using clickies or pots is little more than an inconvenience is stretching it.

Anyway you and I pretty much disagree on most things so I will try and avoid responding directly to you in future.

[Esserbe]

Sorc: Depends on the build.
*Air: Rage, lighting bolt, displacement, Chain missile.
*earth: acid blast instead.
*water: frost lance instead.

That makes no sense. Why would they take spells they get as SLAs for their slots?

CC wiz: Deep slumber, slow, displacement, hold person, Suggestion.

Slow, hold person, suggestion are all either superseded by superior versions, or are less efficient SP use than anything else in the case of Slow.

On a sorc.... well im not sure if i would take it.

You should.

From a selfish Point of view, why WOULD you take haste?
*+1 reflex....so my wiz reflex is now 10? great
*+1 ac....so his ac is now 8. wonderful.
* movement speed....expeditious retreat.

Haste is faster than expeditious retreat and frees up a level 1 slot for other convenience spells, like Nightshield, Jump, Protection from Evil, Obscuring Mist, Master's Touch, Hypnotism, Charm and Sleep when levelling, Ray of Enfeeblement... Sorcs only get four level 1 spells, and depending on your playstyle and circumstances they can be crowded for their utility, more so than level 3 spells. Also, Haste helps *everyone*.

-So melee can swing faster/move faster.....to the group of mobs I'm going to wail.
-In a raid: usually there is a bard.

If you are just "going to wail" everything, why are you grouping, and what other level 3 spell would you use?
And when there isn't a bard and you are the only arcane?

[Illiain]

Between ship buff resists and every class with a blue bar having access to resists, some sorcs might not see the reason to carry it.

Incorrect.

Bards do not get Resist Energy. Please, give your bards resists when they ask. They do so much for groups, the least you can do is spend a few SP on a set of resists.

This has been a public service announcement.

[fluffybunnywilson]

That makes no sense. Why would they take spells they get as SLAs for their slots?

I believe that SLAs have different cooldowns than regular spells. That would allow you to cast more Frost Lances per minute - especially considering the Frost Lance Spell's crazy fast cooldown.

[sweez]

Caster usually is not in meele range, together with meeles, so ho can't see when haste runs out. Not to mention, that casters usually got more buffs than meeles, and you can have only 27 1/2 buff displayed.

You do know they've changed the order in which buff symbols appear at the top of the screen... do you?

[phillymiket]

Dunno what a "chuffing" is.

Sorc: Depends on the build.
*Air: Rage, lighting bolt, displacement, Chain missile.
*earth: acid blast instead.
*water: frost lance instead.

Aren't those all SLA that the sorc gets anyway and can cast for far fewer SP?

CC wiz: Deep slumber, slow, displacement, hold person, Suggestion.

You would take Deep Slumber over Haste? Suggestion when you could have Mass?

As I said, any spell you would replace Haste with can easily be replicated with other spells. Haste is unique.

From a selfish Point of view

I can't really counter a selfish point of view in a group game based on Dungeons and Dragons so well.
Because you will finish the quest faster and easier?
That's the best I can come up with.

That if the effects of something are so great that you EXPECT someone else to have it.. then you should have a clicky or pot form of it as well (if one is available of course.. haste is very available in clicky and pot forms). That way you don't have any issue when someone doesn't have it.

I do have pots and clickies for when someone doesn't have it.
I still have the issue of stopping to quaff pots and click clickies (and then quaff pots when the clickies run out) while the party is taking damage thereby using the healers SP faster.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around..

Haste for everyone is > than anyone persons DPS spell OR min II in most situations(if a mob has a physical DR isn't a DPS spell going to help just as much as a DR breaker?).

Get a stop watch. Go into a hard/elite shroud with a clickie hasted group where the melee can't break DR only the arcane can.

Compare the completion time (if you don't wipe which is the more likely result) with a group unhasted with MinIIs.

Compare both to a group that breaks DR and is perma-hasted by the casters but said casters have one less damage spell in favor of Haste.

I can almost guarantee (with player skill being equal) that group one is slowest (or wipes) followed by group two with group three having the fastest and easiest completion.