PSA Haste does not waste a valuable spell slot

[stille_nacht]

now moving on to a rational argument-
I make two conjectures:
A- Helping a party you are in to the farthest reasonable extent is expected of everyone who joins a party. it is implicit when people group that the function of the group is do to a quest more efficiently and safely (and also perhaps to socialize, but that is irrelavant). Otherwise there would be no point in the group
B- Making a more effective character is a widespread goal that many many players aspire to within reasonable limits. if you purposely want to use an noneffective build, well, slotting haste is not really an issue of contention, but this is a small fraction of players.

so. Does haste cause an unreasonable sacrifice to a build or playstyle? no. there are precisely 4 good dps spells 3rd level for a given savant (i assume displace is slotted in the 5th spot), and using even 3 in a spell cycle would lower dps. Hasting the party every now and then represents an insignificant amount of sp usage. Haste is a nonexistant sacrifice.

does haste cause an unreasonable sacrifice in terms of grinding? no. haste is easily acquired

is haste a benefit to the party? yes. a 15% increase to melee and/or ranged damage is significant. many fighters would kill for a claw set, which represents less than 15% of almost any melee's dps. a 32% increase in run speed is an added benefit for the whole party.

does haste make for a more effective character? yes. explained above.

in conclusion: assuming characters are like those of the vast majority of ddo players (desiring to help the party/build a more effective character, but not making unreasonable sacrifices), there is no reason not to take haste, but good reasons to take haste. Therefore, sorcs should take haste.

what to do with players who choose not to take haste is a matter of entirely different contentions, as is whether or not telling players that haste is a good idea is right or wrong. these can be moved to a different thread.

Note- there are certain very specific instances where you might want non-dps 3rd level spells (halt undead, waterbreathing) might be wanted. All i can say about these is that sorcs are not made to be able to adjust to very specific quests quickly, and it is debatable if spells like those should be slotted 4 days at a time, considering that halt may be scrolled for the mindless undead in the only truly challenging undead quest, tomb of the wiz king, and waterbreathing is barely ever necessary, i feel safe in disregarding these spells, there are other nifty spells, but they all have better versions.)
(page 37, almost plaid!)

[furbyoats]

hai again guys...you seem to miss the point...so let me spell it out for you

1) haste provides a 15% attack speed increase to all melee based attacks. this means things die faster...mmkay?

2) even if you do not have extend, a 2 minute haste is still extremely useful and rather cheap on the sp cost....if you doubt me, provide me with evidence of a spell that is cast for the same amount of sp as a non-extended haste vs. the dps increase of 4 melee toons (and im being very generous) with haste.

3) yes, you are sorcerer, you are mighty, but i will blacklist you in a heartbeat if you dont carry haste...the same way i won't bother with you if you dont carry recon

why? (pertaining to #3) if you join my party, you are expected to contribute to the overall success of the raid/quest. if i am looking for an arcane for vod, i want someone to be able to recon/backup in canse something goes wrong. lvl 6 spells are a bit more understandable for not carrying recon, i dont like it, but i can at least understand.

so...again, carry haste or get blacklisted yes, i am telling you how to play your toon (if you want to run in a raid)

as i said before, you may choose not to carry it, but i hope you enjoy soloing your raid gear grind.

[JohnnyDangerously]

So you want haste because you're in a hurry to get somewhere? Where are you going?

To rush through the quest so you can rush through the next quest so you can rush through the next quest so you can rush through the next quest so you can rush through the next quest so you can rush through the next quest so you can rush through the next quest

so you can cap and then TR and then

rush through the next quest to rush through the quest so you can rush through the next quest so you can rush through the next quest so you can rush through the next quest so you can rush through the next quest so you can rush through the next quest

so you can cap and then TR and then

rush through the next quest to rush through the quest so you can rush through the next quest so you can rush through the next quest so you can rush through the next quest so you can rush through the next quest so you can rush through the next quest

so you can cap and then TR and then

rush through the next quest to rush through the quest so you can rush through the next quest so you can rush through the next quest so you can rush through the next quest so you can rush through the next quest so you can rush through the next quest

and then what?

Where are you going in such a hurry? What do you do when you get there?

Lol. I almost peed a little from this one.

The thing that really gets me is that it is this big of deal when somone does not carry haste.

Another thing is that you cant expect someone to play to what you think is the standard(for they might not think the same thing is standard).

Lastly, haste is by far the best buff any arcane can contribute. There is no argument against this. If someone doesn't carry it though then drink a pot and dont whine about it. After all its really not a big problem.

[Postumus]

I think

Hold person and suggestion are very poor choices. Hold person is outclassed by hold monster, mass hold person, and mass hold monster. Suggestion has better alternatives,

Again you're assuming L20 wiz here. If we were only talking L20, I might be more inclined to agree, but I'm not a player who thinks the game starts at l20. Once I hit 20, I'm read to try something else or TR so 99% of my play time is getting to 20, not when I'm at 20.

That's probably part of the reason we disagree on carrying Rage as a mandatory spell. When you factor in that it is usually carried by others, and therefore redundant, it's an unnecessary spell for my sorc.

I think Suggestion > Rage when I solo. Since I my solo:group ratio for my sorc is about 60:40, I'm not going to carry spells that I don't need/use when I solo just so I can have redundant spells (RAGE) when I group. Rage is always covered by at least two other players when in a raid so it's unnecessary for me to carry it.

[Vellrad]

hai again guys...you seem to miss the point...so let me spell it out for you

1) haste provides a 15% attack speed increase to all melee based attacks. this means things die faster...mmkay?

2) even if you do not have extend, a 2 minute haste is still extremely useful and rather cheap on the sp cost....if you doubt me, provide me with evidence of a spell that is cast for the same amount of sp as a non-extended haste vs. the dps increase of 4 melee toons (and im being very generous) with haste.

3) yes, you are sorcerer, you are mighty, but i will blacklist you in a heartbeat if you dont carry haste...the same way i won't bother with you if you dont carry recon

why? (pertaining to #3) if you join my party, you are expected to contribute to the overall success of the raid/quest. if i am looking for an arcane for vod, i want someone to be able to recon/backup in canse something goes wrong. lvl 6 spells are a bit more understandable for not carrying recon, i dont like it, but i can at least understand.

so...again, carry haste or get blacklisted yes, i am telling you how to play your toon (if you want to run in a raid)

as i said before, you may choose not to carry it, but i hope you enjoy soloing your raid gear grind.

OK, I can carry aste, but the moment, I see any1 not tripping and stunning as soon as cooldown is over I add to blacklist and no buffs for ever. You don't deserve them if you don't contribute even this litte to CC.

[varusso]

Again you're assuming L20 wiz here. If we were only talking L20, I might be more inclined to agree, but I'm not a player who thinks the game starts at l20. Once I hit 20, I'm read to try something else or TR so 99% of my play time is getting to 20, not when I'm at 20.

That's probably part of the reason we disagree on carrying Rage as a mandatory spell. When you factor in that it is usually carried by others, and therefore redundant, it's an unnecessary spell for my sorc.

I think Suggestion > Rage when I solo. Since I my solo:group ratio for my sorc is about 60:40, I'm not going to carry spells that I don't need/use when I solo just so I can have redundant spells (RAGE) when I group. Rage is always covered by at least two other players when in a raid so it's unnecessary for me to carry it.

The discussion is specifically targeted at 18+

[Postumus]

My Gods this is a monster. Well I'm a bit of a thread killer so I'll give it a shot. Maybe my posting will end this thing.

I like hast.

Du.


Du Haste.


Du Haste Mich...

[Postumus]

^this

sick and tired of people trying to justify bad choices by saying YOU CANT PICK MY PLAYSTYLE, FREEDOM!!!!!

no. i cant pick your playstyle. But when in a group, you are expected to contribute, if you do not contribute, you are in the wrong,

It's an RPG. It's all about personal customization.


When (if) you guys played PnP, did you tell the other players how they had to build their characters also? Did you ban the wiz from the group b/c he wanted another MM instead of a spell you wanted him to take?


And since when does 'player doesn't have X spell' = 'player does not contribute?' In my experience, rarely.


I play in PUGs where players consistently don't have a feat/spell/item/scroll/pot that I think would enhance the group's odd or that I wouldn't be caught dead without, but 95% of them still find a way to contribute effectively.


This argument that casters must take a party buff spell so the melees can be more effective makes me think more and more that some people are playing gimped melees. It's almost as bad as the guy who MUST HAVE SHIP BUFFS!!! before he'll join a quest.


You can't control someone else or their choices. The whole appeal of this game are the multitude of choices. It's a PUG, suck it up and play. Seriously, if one person's build choices can sink an entire party, then you have a party full of gimps. If not having Haste (or any ONE spell) means your group can't succeed, you have a group full of gimps.

[Postumus]

hai again guys...you seem to miss the point...so let me spell it out for you

1) haste provides a 15% attack speed increase to all melee based attacks. this means things die faster...mmkay?

Things die faster b/c sorcerers blow the hell out of them before the melees can even touch them. By the time the melees engage, if they can, the critters aren't surviving more than one shot anyway. (and obviously I'm not talking about epics).

2) even if you do not have extend, a 2 minute haste is still extremely useful and rather cheap on the sp

We all agree haste is useful. I always take it, but if someone else doesn't, it doesn't affect me or bother me in the slightest.

3) yes, you are sorcerer, you are mighty, but i will blacklist you in a heartbeat if you dont carry haste...the same way i won't bother with you if you dont carry recon

so...again, carry haste or get blacklisted yes, i am telling you how to play your toon (if you want to run in a raid)

If you bring a melee into one of my parties and start crying that you aren't getting your favorite buffs, then you won't get ANY buffs and I'll drop you at the end of the quest.

I don't blacklist people over something as silly as not having a spell or a potion or a scroll. Why would anyone? That's just ridiculous.

[Postumus]

The discussion is specifically targeted at 18+

Missed that in the OP, but I never disagreed with the OP's statement regarding Haste, just Rage.


I also disagree with folks (like yourself) who feel the need to dictate how other people should play an RPG. Sorry guys, you will never be able to control other players no matter how loud the forum threats of 'blacklists' become.

[varusso]

Missed that in the OP, but I never disagreed with the OP's statement regarding Haste, just Rage.


I also disagree with folks (like yourself) who feel the need to dictate how other people should play an RPG. Sorry guys, you will never be able to control other players no matter how loud the forum threats of 'blacklists' become.

The OP was referring specifically to shroud lvl toons (generally considered 16+) -- the discussion has evolved into what a sorc can carry at tier 3 savant (which requires lvl 18). Everyone with any common sense at all has agreed that low lvl sorcs have to make tough choices, which may not always include rage or haste, due to fewer spell slots.

You should practice more reading comprehension, BTW. I have specifically stated multiple times that a player has the right to choose whatever spells they wish.

[Fenrisulven6]

hai again guys...you seem to miss the point...so let me spell it out for you

1) haste provides a 15% attack speed increase to all melee based attacks. this means things die faster...mmkay?

If its that important for the melee's that things die faster, they should bring pots.

Why can't melee's bring pots?

[Aashrym]

Again you're assuming L20 wiz here. If we were only talking L20, I might be more inclined to agree, but I'm not a player who thinks the game starts at l20. Once I hit 20, I'm read to try something else or TR so 99% of my play time is getting to 20, not when I'm at 20.

That's probably part of the reason we disagree on carrying Rage as a mandatory spell. When you factor in that it is usually carried by others, and therefore redundant, it's an unnecessary spell for my sorc.

I think Suggestion > Rage when I solo. Since I my solo:group ratio for my sorc is about 60:40, I'm not going to carry spells that I don't need/use when I solo just so I can have redundant spells (RAGE) when I group. Rage is always covered by at least two other players when in a raid so it's unnecessary for me to carry it.

A person can't assume someone else is carrying rage while stating that they do not need to carry rage. If your aren't why would someone else? It's not logical to assume someone will be carrying it if you are stating you do not need to carry it.


I'm not assuming anything about level either. The casters in that raid didn't have haste while running shroud. This isn't low level and if they assumed someone would have it then they were wrong. Assuming someone else will cover Rage so you don't have to set everyone up to miss out on a good team spell when players sit here on the forums stating it's not necessary.


That's a self-defeating argument if we tell players they don't need it and then assume they'll have it.


At some point players grind gear and/or stop TR'ing. I don't know anyone who does it indefinitely and very few who have gone beyond 2 TR's if they TR at all. At some point no matter how we look at it most characters will eventually be grinding high levels.


The only way to avoid that is an unlimited cycle of reincarnation that will eventually produce little benefit for the character and pointless to argue carrying rage or haste on sorc unless you see a reason to TR to or from that class more than 3 times (maybe 4th for a final life but that gets us to my next comment); or an unlimited level cap, which is not feasible, but increased level caps reinforce high level play where we would be carrying rage and/or haste. If the sorc is on the final life he stops reincarnating, and if he's not on a final life he'll be a sorc for 3 of them tops.


You right that I was focused on high level players, but that's because the OP is about higher level players. I wouldn't carry haste or rage at level 6 either. The durations are low and I would be limited in my options at that time.


So at this point your chain of TR's is refuted unless anyone is planning on TR'ing to sorc repeatedly for no purpose and your point that the game doesn't start at level 20 is refuted because EVERYONE gets there eventually. Your point on someone else casting it contradicts telling players they don't need it and falls under the same assumption you do not want players to make about sorcs.


If you want to discuss spells for lower levels I'm fine with that, but that's not really the part of the game I am talking about.


Also, before you say that someone else will cast it again, let me preempt that a bit. Bards get access to rage at 4th level, as a 2nd level spell. That's the earliest any class that can slot rage. That bard also has hold person and suggestion in the same slot. I mentioned this before but I wanted to use your example to try to demonstrate the flaw in your argument again.


Why does a sorc skip rage for hold person or suggestion but not a bard and why is it wrong to expect rage from a sorc while at the same time expecting rage from a bard in lieu of the exact same spells? Bards also have cure moderate wounds, sound burst, glitterdust, and daze monster competing in those slots; some of which are also outstripped eventually but most have at least a niche use. Hypnotic pattern carries a debuff with it now.


Why are your expectations of the spells from another character or class acceptable but it's not acceptable to have those expectation of your character or class? Do you really think it's fair to assume someone else will cast what you will not? Do you really think rage is redundant but suggestion is not?


The whole idea of arguing that you don't need a spell because someone else will cast that spell for you so we shouldn't expect you to have is worth a head shake. Just sayin'

[Aashrym]

If its that important for the melee's that things die faster, they should bring pots.

Why can't melee's bring pots?

They can and should. But SP still lasts longer and doesn't hamper the melee's damage with chugging pots or hitting clickies. More actions are required. Conversely, casting haste and/or rage increases the sorc's damage output simultaneously with less interruption by additional actions.

[Fenrisulven6]

The whole idea of arguing that you don't need a spell because someone else will cast that spell for you so we shouldn't expect you to have is worth a head shake.

Unless you played in groups where EVERYONE brought along a 10 foot pole, then you understand.

[Aashrym]

Unless you played in groups where EVERYONE brought along a 10 foot pole, then you understand.

If 12 people bring rage it's still easy enough not to use and it still has benefits soloing other time or in other groups.

Fortunately a rage spell saved in the unlikely event everyone brought one means 11 other players get SP for something else and still have rage. Not using a 10' pole doesn't have that advantage.

EDIT: Not to mention the actual point was invalidated by telling us not to assume someone has rage by assuming someone else would have rage. What kind of logic is that?

[Fenrisulven6]

You still don't need haste.

[grodon9999]

You still don't need haste.

We don't need to bring useless casters who won't cast haste.

[Vellrad]

We don't need to bring useless casters who won't cast haste.

Its usually the other way- casters don't need melees, because they can solo most of the content.

[Fenrisulven6]

We don't need to bring useless casters who won't cast haste.

If you have your own pots, what does it matter?

And if you think casters without haste are "useless", well....