PSA Haste does not waste a valuable spell slot

[grodon9999]

I think it is right on topic

The assertion is that a sorcerer whom does not carry Haste / Rage is the not "optimal" for the party (weather for DPS or speed or other reason)

Therefore, said sorcerer will be dropped for a more optimal caster (one with haste / rage).
Then blacklisted.

If you (as a party leader) are filtering based on "optimal" builds why is my argument wrong?

A caster who doesn't have haste drops from the "sub-optimal" category to the "pure useless garbage" category formerly reserved for Sword and Bored rogues.

Page 35!!!!

[muffinlad]

I think it is right on topic

The assertion is that a sorcerer whom does not carry Haste / Rage is the not "optimal" for the party (weather for DPS or speed or other reason)

Therefore, said sorcerer will be dropped for a more optimal caster (one with haste / rage).
Then blacklisted.

If you (as a party leader) are filtering based on "optimal" builds why is my argument wrong?

Good question.

First: We are not arguing about the merits of those other items, we are arguing about Haste. Each one of those is a rabbit hole of +35 pages regarding character build and development, and choice.

Second: Haste impacts the DPS/movement/AC of the ENTIRE party. Your personal, non-buffing build choices impact you, and your role in the party. While of import, it is of lesser import.


Third: Dropping from the party is not blacklisted. It is not dropped from the party and then blacklisted. It is dropped from the party, or not allowed to join, because the tools that caster carries (or wont use) are not up to the group leader requirements/group needs.

While that could lead to eventual "blacklisting", that is a tactic with very poor end results in the aggrigate so experienced leaders are going to simply keep asking you for Haste rather than blacklist you- UNLESS you melt down and have a fit everytime you are asked for Haste.

The blacklisting is not about Haste then...it is about not taking a gunslinger when you need a cowboy. Both are tough, but you take the team player over the sociopath.

Regards,

muffinstuff

[varusso]

The part where you assume everyone else has to think like you.
The part where you are the authority on what is best for me or the group.
The part where you continue to say LA LA LA LA when others make a valid argument
The part where you are not open to consider that others play differently
The part where you establish a "expected and required" layout for anyone else.
The part where nothing is open to debate, just your opinion matters

PS - when this thread goes down, i will die a little inside
PPS - If you think the thread is just about haste/rage reread page 1-34. It has become much more.

I did not in any way, shape, or form claim that *I* originated these standards. I have, in fact repeatedly stated that these are the standards that the majority of players have adopted -- standards which I happen to agree with, based on ACTUAL gameplay, and not THEORETICAL situations with THEORETICAL toons.

So, since you completely dodged the question and made accusations that simply are not true, I will ask again, because this is what I have ACTUALLY said all along:

Which part exactly? The part about players being allowed to play as they like, or the part about players being accountable for their own actions? This has been the heart of my stance from the very beginning.

When you join a group, there ARE standards that the majority of players expect from other classes. Burying your head in the sand and refusing to acknowledge it wont make that go away. Throwing a tantrum at ME wont make it go away ; I didnt set the standards. You can choose to provide them or not, and there ARE consequences to those choices. That *IS* what this thread is about. Do not try to read into or infer anything else that i have not said, and do not accuse me of things I have not done. You only weaken your argument by trying to mislead and misdirect. I am not going to chase you down the rabbithole and defend things I have not said or done, so you may as well stop trying.

[Fejj]

How far does the "im not a team player, BYO_" rabbithole go?

I don't see "drink a pot" as saying "i will never buff you"

I see it as - If you are so dependent on a buff as to come to the forums and post about how every caster needs to carry it, you should have a way to cast is your self, and the party.

I will never say "group for haste". I'll cast it on chests, doors, or when i notice the group all together. If you miss out, (and NEED to have it) drink a pot, or wait 2 min.

[stille_nacht]

I did not in any way, shape, or form claim that *I* originated these standards. I have, in fact repeatedly stated that these are the standards that the majority of players have adopted -- standards which I happen to agree with, based on ACTUAL gameplay, and not THEORETICAL situations with THEORETICAL toons.

So, since you completely dodged the question and made accusations that simply are not true, I will ask again, because this is what I have ACTUALLY said all along:

Which part exactly? The part about players being allowed to play as they like, or the part about players being accountable for their own actions? This has been the heart of my stance from the very beginning.

When you join a group, there ARE standards that the majority of players expect from other classes. Burying your head in the sand and refusing to acknowledge it wont make that go away. Throwing a tantrum at ME wont make it go away ; I didnt set the standards. You can choose to provide them or not, and there ARE consequences to those choices. That *IS* what this thread is about. Do not try to read into or infer anything else that i have not said, and do not accuse me of things I have not done. You only weaken your argument by trying to mislead and misdirect. I am not going to chase you down the rabbithole and defend things I have not said or done, so you may as well stop trying.

^this

sick and tired of people trying to justify bad choices by saying YOU CANT PICK MY PLAYSTYLE, FREEDOM!!!!!

no. i cant pick your playstyle. But when in a group, you are expected to contribute, if you do not contribute, you are in the wrong, if you do not want to contribute, do not join groups. Not getting haste not only reduces the effectiveness of your group, it does not even increase your own. there is no rational behind not picking up things like haste and resist as a sorc besides being selfish. I will not kick you, i will not blacklist you, but i will inform you about how important both these spells are.

there are 4 decent dps spells in lv 3 for a give savant. and if you use them all in a spell cycle (and have displace or something instead of haste), you are not only not hasting the party, you are lowering your own DPS. there is not real rational for slotting all of these

[Chai]

This is a Strawman Arguement. Let's not argue things he never said, or imply other arguements that are not germaine to the topic at hand.

As a party leader, you are looking for tools to complete a raid or quest. It is your job to get the best tools for the party, and haste is the best tool for sustained DPS. Arcanes who do not carry haste, or who will not use haste as required by the party needs/leader request should either:

A) Start their own party
B) Get Haste.

This is a game, not a civil rights issue. If you show up with a catcher's mit to a football game and you are not willing to change into your uniform, you can "play first base" on the sidelines.

muffinhaster

Yeap exactly - thing is...people usually dont feel the need to put "caster w/haste" in the LFM. It has just been assumed for the longest time now. I do see things like "caster w/40+ CC DC." A caster slithering in without haste to me is like a melee FvS sliding into a raid LFM that has 11 non healer classes in it and refusing to heal. "What, you had my class icon up there so I joined" doesnt cut it when you are in the raid and the raid leader expected a healer.

[Chai]

A caster who doesn't have haste drops from the "sub-optimal" category to the "pure useless garbage" category formerly reserved for Sword and Bored rogues.

Page 35!!!!

Sword-n-Bored®

I love it!!!

[Fejj]

Which part exactly? The part about players being allowed to play as they like, or the part about players being accountable for their own actions? This has been the heart of my stance from the very beginning.

If this was all you wrote this thread would be 20 pages shorter

Will this hit 40, only time will tell

I agree about haste / rage
I disagree with the attitude you and others have towards players without them.

It is wrong to only have one way to do things.

[varusso]

I don't see "drink a pot" as saying "i will never buff you"

I see it as - If you are so dependent on a buff as to come to the forums and post about how every caster needs to carry it, you should have a way to cast is your self, and the party.

I will never say "group for haste". I'll cast it on chests, doors, or when i notice the group all together. If you miss out, (and NEED to have it) drink a pot, or wait 2 min.

Now see you have it ALMOST right, in terms of expected/accepted behavior. The caster SHOULD cast rage/haste at natural chokepoints in the quest (doors, chests, tight-quarter fights, etc.), using their own timers as the guide for re-casting. However, just casting it without communicating to the rest of the party, and telling them to suck up and bust is wrong.

You identify a chokepoint -- "Casting rage/haste on the chest" -- wait a few seconds to give everyone a chance to huddle up, then cast. If someone doesnt huddle up -- THEN they can suck a pot, because they chose not to be part of the team. They will quickly learn to hit the huddle or do without. Refusing to share your buff with everyone just because they didnt happen to be next to you when you cast it (with no way of knowing you were going to cast it RIGHT THEN) -- thats just being a jerk. You dont need to hold their hands throughout the quest, but you should make reasonable efforts to "educate" your group as to how you are doing it, so everyone (including them AND you) can adapt.

If this was all you wrote this thread would be 20 pages shorter

Will this hit 40, only time will tell

I agree about haste / rage
I disagree with the attitude you and others have towards players without them.

It is wrong to only have one way to do things.

Its what I have stated in nearly every post. Some folks have chosen to misinterpret it (some deliberately) and argue points I have not made -- aside from all the other folks debating with each other.

My "attitude" toward other players is that -- unless you are new (to the game OR your toon) -- you know what a typical party expects from you on any given toon. You can choose to provide it or not, and we can all choose to group with you or not. We all have just as much right to choose as the person making the toon. I also know that whatever your class, you CAN still provide the expected things to a group -- you CHOOSE to exclude them from your build for something else. The group can CHOOSE to exclude you in favor of someone who does have it.

Its the height of hypocrisy to claim that it is ok for one player to choose to play their own way, while at the same time claiming that everyone else has to accept it, when THEY want something else.

[BangsLiekWhoa]

Now see you have it ALMOST right, in terms of expected/accepted behavior. The caster SHOULD cast rage/haste at natural chokepoints in the quest (doors, chests, tight-quarter fights, etc.), using their own timers as the guide for re-casting. However, just casting it without communicating to the rest of the party, and telling them to suck up and bust is wrong.

You identify a chokepoint -- "Casting rage/haste on the chest" -- wait a few seconds to give everyone a chance to huddle up, then cast. If someone doesnt huddle up -- THEN they can suck a pot, because they chose not to be part of the team. They will quickly learn to hit the huddle or do without. Refusing to share your buff with everyone just because they didnt happen to be next to you when you cast it (with no way of knowing you were going to cast it RIGHT THEN) -- thats just being a jerk. You dont need to hold their hands throughout the quest, but you should make reasonable efforts to "educate" your group as to how you are doing it, so everyone (including them AND you) can adapt.

I think his method is fine, and not considered "being a jerk." My mic is currently busted and people don't read party chat often enough, so this is how I do it as well (and honestly there is usually enough chatter that when I have a working mic I don't feel like waiting for it to die down...) Because of this, I don't announce that I am going to cast it.

I simply cast at choke points like closed doors, chests, etc. when the majority/all of the party is present. If someone is a straggler and misses it, so be it. I am not going to make the whole party wait up for them and slow down the quest as a whole - I like to zerg, so sue me!

Also, I think that most people know how this works and kind of expect it to be cast at choke points so they get grouped up without anyone having to tell them.

[Chai]

If this was all you wrote this thread would be 20 pages shorter

Will this hit 40, only time will tell

I agree about haste / rage
I disagree with the attitude you and others have towards players without them.

It is wrong to only have one way to do things.

No its not wrong, but its also not wrong to fill many needed things in a group with one headcount who can overlap most or all of those things. The more utility a sorc drops, the more and more one-trick-pony-ish they become, and the less and less desired they become as well. This translates to being less and less attractive to group leaders who know they dont pack some utility because somehow, level 3 spells just became the new uber DPS.

I think if the attitude in this thread makes its way in game, we will see more and more LFMs with "caster with haste/rage & 40+ DC." Those who cant fulfill that expectation will not be allowed to join. We havent seen this yet, mostly because its been assumed that casters will carry these buffs. If we can no longer assume that casters will carry the buffs, then the buffs themselves may become roadblocks in the future when people who can no longer assume start making it an overt expectation.

[BangsLiekWhoa]

No its not wrong, but its also not wrong to fill many needed things in a group with one headcount who can overlap most or all of those things. The more utility a sorc drops, the more and more one-trick-pony-ish they become, and the less and less desired they become as well. This translates to being less and less attractive to group leaders who know they dont pack some utility because somehow, level 3 spells just became the new uber DPS.

This kind of applies to every class, the more roles you can play in the party the better. People will want to group with you more if you can fill a large variety of roles. So when in ToD part2 when the arcane dies and the FvS drops a quick BB then blasts out there with their wings and starts kiting the shadows, he has just proven MUCH more useful to the group (provided the other healer(s) can keep up the rest of the party - which they BETTER be able to). Or if your party bard can provide a little cc, beat stuff up in melee, AND keep the party healed all by themselves; they have proved to be a great asset to the party by filling several roles at one time.

This thread is not about "you suck and should re-roll b/c you don't have a certain spell." It is more about "you should consider bringing more than one trick to the show." That is all it boils down to.

[varusso]

I think his method is fine, and not considered "being a jerk." My mic is currently busted and people don't read party chat often enough, so this is how I do it as well (and honestly there is usually enough chatter that when I have a working mic I don't feel like waiting for it to die down...) Because of this, I don't announce that I am going to cast it.

I simply cast at choke points like closed doors, chests, etc. when the majority/all of the party is present. If someone is a straggler and misses it, so be it. I am not going to make the whole party wait up for them and slow down the quest as a whole - I like to zerg, so sue me!

Also, I think that most people know how this works and kind of expect it to be cast at choke points so they get grouped up without anyone having to tell them.

What you are doing is different from what he described -- its actually what I do, something I learned in turn running with other super zergers.

You wait for most of the group to gather up, then cast, not just cast here and whoever gets it gets it.

I will wait a few seconds to let everyone have a realistic chance of gathering up. I also use voice or text chat to "teach" the group what I am doing. They quickly learn and I no longer need to say anything. I also allow for folks who are getting some of that weird bouncy lag -- up to a point.

Someone who is consistently falling behind, wandering off to check out the far corner of the room while everyone else is ready to go, lingering over a chest or collectible while we are at the door, etc. -- that guy better have some pots. And in the groups I run in, that is the accepted standard. A group with a bunch of newbies in the quest -- that is obviously different, and I would be a jerk if I played the same way.

Heres the thing though: in most zerg groups, its a given that the caster WILL be dropping rage/haste. Its not even a debated point. A PUG with (experienced) zergers will even quickly adapt to the caster, based on how long the rage/haste for that caster lasts, even with little or no communication.

[Kovalas]

Really? You're going to ban people because they don't carry the buff spell you want?

If that spell is Haste and its my Shroud PUG your joining, and your the only Arcane, absolutely! And all your other toons for getting on my nerves and wasting my time booting and regrouping.

[Aashrym]

We will be ludicrous at page 35, plaid requires 40 pages.

Well, we've hit ludicrous speed and we're heading towards going plaid. Once Lonestar finds planet Druidia and his Schwartz all will be lost for Lord Darkhelmet. And we'll derailing a thread at PLAID.

Back to more on topic...

When we hit TOD part three there is a countdown for the final haste and boot swap. We try to eek out those last seconds because of how important that spell is to the group. If I'm on my spell singer I'll increase the spell levels just for a few more seconds before casting it.

If we're back to talking about haste I want to reaffirm it is the best spell there is for sustained DPS. This still isn't a civil rights movement (I like that response so I stole it), it's just bringing the right tools for the job when the group expects haste.

[Truga]

Off-topic: Frankly, these forums are bad. On Eve-o just today a thread went to 155 pages (and they have 30 posts per page too) in just 16 hours.

On-topic:

Yeah, and the hilarity ensues when we use this same argument on everything else.

Hey you want a heal? buy some pots. What do you mean it doesnt work like that?
Fire resist? Shoulda bought pots / wands. It burns when you PVE? what?
FOM? every one of you shoulda farmed those boots. Now youre held and cant perform your role.

How far does the "im not a team player, BYO_" rabbithole go?

To put this into perspective, we play a game where the spreadsheet gamers factor in the time between when they hit their boost and when they start swinging again as a loss in DPS, and here we are listening to people banter that if we want haste we should stop and drink pots every 30 seconds?

Ludicrous? This threads gone to plaid!!

I've been in a shroud on my rogue where asking for true sight/fom was replied with "yeah, I acutally have those spells, but they're also available on scrolls, surely your rogue has UMD" with a tone that also suggested "why should I spend _my_ spell points on your character". So I scrolled them. It was also by far the fastest shroud PUG I've ever been on. Only thing I can say is that I'd never, in any game, play something that can't get **** done on it's own, unless I had a full group of people with complementary builds constantly at my disposal. That means either a guild, or a static group.

My warchanter (currently level 11) spams haste once per minute or so. Even though extended it lasts two minutes, when running through quests, people are often not all piled up, so some miss it each cast, and I cast it more often (and there's occasionally still someone that missed it). Not a big deal. On my wizard, however, I have more important things to worry about than keeping the group hasted, and often forget about recasting it, because I simply fail to even notice it's gone (it's really that irrelevant), and will only recast once someone reminds me.

On my sorcerer lives, I will probably have space for it once I hit level 11. Displacement, rage, and the new lightning bolt are just to tasty to trade for an extra couple % running speed.

So yeah, BYOH(aste)! Getting any buffs from any class is a big plus (they last longer and don't cost plat), but in a pug one should never count on any. If someone wants to kick people for it sure, but the wait for a new dude will probably be longer than the extra time it'd take to complete. If the dude without haste does his job right, it might even be shorter!

[MindCake]

Oh, so you consider a melee that didn't bring a stack of haste pots to be piking now?
So, someone who didn't make the effort to make the quest run 10-20% faster is a piker, unless it's you?
Nice double-standards you got there.

You didn't bring the appropriate gear to the party. You are a piker. I brought my pots, I have heal pots, haste pots, resists, clickies. I'm ready to do my part in the party. You have failed.
Failure on your part and you are just a piker.

[...]
You want people to build their characters up to your specifications. You have some serious problems. Control freak is more like it. I don't like to party with control freaks, espically when they will detract from the performance of the gameplay.

[...]
I have pots. Drink a pot. Be self-sufficient. Groups will like your gimped characers more and you'll learn how to be a better player. Demanding someone else provide a buff that your character needs is just a total failure and you really need to re-roll.

So you want people to bring haste pots so that you can finish 10-20% faster, and expect them to be be self sufficient in a PuG, and you consider me a selfish, elitist, control freak.*
This is comedy gold.

*I'd phrase it as a question to make sure it's not just a case of failure to communicate, but by now I know you'd ignore that question (just like all the others) and just re-post the same thing you always do, so yeah.

FYI, I consider myself pretty much self sufficient, I bring a lot of cure potions and wands, and some buff clickies, but they're there for emergencies. I don't expect to have to use them, and I don't expect the other players to have to reach into theirs unless it's a "zerg, know it, self sufficient, BYOH, be able to solo a tower" run, or we can't recruit a healer or arcane and everyone agrees to run without one.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

Wow people really get huffy about their opinions...they're "just" opinions not even necessarily "your" opinions (the words, the meanings of the words, meanings of patterns of words and ideas were taught you by someone else who bought into someone elses opinions and passed em on to you) and throwing them arounds is (and this is just my opinion) LOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLZZZZZZZ

I must say this thread is really crying out for a cup of Night Black Coffee and a Stormreaver's Napkin to curl up in.

You don't HAVE to have Haste, I don't HAVE to interrupt my AWESOME Assasin DPS in normal shroud to drink one, and I don't HAVE to give the healer Mnem pots to replace the 3 she drank (watching red/blue bars in case I need to UMD cast a HEAL scroll) and I definitely dont HAVE to break the crystal in Shroud with my Anarchic Returning Dagger of Construct Bane cause your striding boots couldnt run your non-Haste havin booty there fast enough. HASTE POTS FTW

Quit being hard headed (just an opinion)

[Raithe]

Displacement, rage, and the new lightning bolt are just to tasty to trade for an extra couple % running speed.

Extra couple %? Try a full-blown double-digit 10%. Anything that would increase your run speed above 30% striders probably stacks with haste, or drops the minute you start attacking.

I realize it completely depends on playstyle, but haste mitigates more damage than displacement in my particular style. Arrows and ray spells in DDO were designed to be dodgeable, and they are to a degree.

My caster wears 25% striding boots of springing. I still notice the second my haste wears off, and Ctrl-8, 8 are the very next 2 keys I hit...

[mobrien316]

I’m curious as to what some of you do when a sorcerer without Haste joins your non-specific LFM party and you boot him?

Is that spot now reserved exclusively for a sorcerer with Haste? Or will you accept another character, any other character, in their place? Is any other character in the game, regardless of build/gear/feats/skills better than a sorcerer without Haste?

Or will you wait for a “properly built” sorcerer to join? How long will you wait? Are you willing to wait ten minutes for a sorcerer that meets with your approval? What if the quest you are going to do only takes ten minutes? Is it better to sit there doing nothing for ten minutes rather than do a quest with a sorcerer who doesn’t have Haste?

Or do you buy a hireling with Haste so you can have your choice of a brain-dead sorcerer who stands there and does nothing without your express order, or a brain-dead sorcerer who mindlessly squanders his spell points without regard for vulnerabilities or immunities? Is either option preferable to a sorcerer without Haste?

Or do you just start the quest with a free slot because doing a quest with five people or a raid with eleven people is superior to allowing a sorcerer without Haste to join?

Personally, I can’t imagine booting anyone who I didn’t know from previous quests was a bad player (not a bad character, but a bad player) or someone who refused to read or simply ignored a specific LFM note, such as by filling the last slot in a party with an LFM filtered down to accept only rogues and the notation “Trapmonkey needed” and who then told me he couldn’t or wouldn’t do traps.

I rarely have LFMs fill up instantly, or even within a minute or two (depending on the time of day and the quest), and I don’t see any of the above options being superior to simply allowing the player to join and then adjusting on the fly. If you wind up with a sorcerer in the party who doesn’t have haste and you simply can’t live without it then you should be able to adapt. If you progress through the quest and find out the sorcerer doesn’t have Haste AND is a horrible player, then it makes perfect sense to boot him prior to the next quest and to not group with him in the future. But if the sorcerer without Haste turns out to be a good player (which can only be determined by questing with him) I can’t see the logic in booting/squelching/banning him for life simply because he doesn’t have a spell you think he should have.

There are few enough good players in the game. There is absolutely no reason to boot a potentially good player because you make the prejudiced decision that, without a specific spell, he or she must be gimped, stupid, and selfish.