PSA Haste does not waste a valuable spell slot

[Missing_Minds]

Its even easier to ignore new or subpar players who could benefit from helpful advice and criticism, to help them play better and be more effective, before they join a group where their role is more critical.

Very true. I just felt that Cry's anecdote was worthy of bad marketing.

[Aashrym]

Its even easier to ignore new or subpar players who could benefit from helpful advice and criticism, to help them play better and be more effective, before they join a group where their role is more critical.

I want to expand on roles in this if that's okay. Buffing is not a role by itself, but arcane buffs are part of the arcane classes and that is where some of my expectations come from.

[varusso]

I want to expand on roles in this if that's okay. Buffing is not a role by itself, but arcane buffs are part of the arcane classes and that is where some of my expectations come from.

I agree. Arcanes can provide a variety of things to a party, regardless of WHICH arcane we are talking about. Buffs being one of them.

The sorc in Cyr's post is an example of someone who probably could have used some friendly coaching. That is if we werent "being elitist" by "telling others how they should play their toons".
<cough>

[phillymiket]

I think we're good for 35 pages.

You're thinking small, Bigjunk.

I think we're going to give Ayn Rand a run for her money or maybe Leo Tolstoy.

[Chai]

Such as doing the raid at level and not having original greensteel?

This raid was designed back in the days when we would go into threnal, pull a ML 8 race restricted + 5 shock weapon and immediately bind it because that was your new main weapon. When someone pulled a curse spewer back then it was a prized posession.

Nowdays people run around with shocking burst pure good with icy burst on it, trinkets that deliver damage on a 20 plus crit confirm, and perfect weapons for many case scenarios. Running VON 6 in a PUG on anything less than epic nowdays is like bringing machine guns back in time to The Battle of Maldon.

[Chai]

I can't slot haste because there are other spells I want to have there. There is nothing wrong with this argument.

And when raid/group leaders cant slot arcanes who absolutely refuse to carry what is arguably the best buff in the game, because there is someone else they want to have there, there is nothing wrong with that argument either, heh.

[phillymiket]

So funny story. I'm in a pug last night that someone else organized. We are doing vale content and sorc comes into party. Seems pretty clueless overall (took over ten minutes to get to sleeping dust). When they get there they start wand whipping themselves with an eternal wand of healing. Suprise, surprise the sorc did not carry haste. Guess how the rest of the party responded? Yup, you guessed it they didn't launch into an outpouring of support for someone 'playing how they want to'. They were shocked the person didn't have haste and even more shocked when during the quest that same guy was wand whipping himself and others with apparently a large stack of those eternal heal wands. I'm pretty sure he also used some electric SLA's during the quest. SP on that toon never dropped below 75%.

I think this is cogent to part of this difference in opinion in this thread.

Some are arguing about their well geared, well planned characters. I think someone mentioned a build with 6 past lives.
They say they have thought about it and don't want to take Haste.
Ok, fine.

But the example above and the example in the OP are not well geared and planned characters.
In my experience when a caster doesn't have Haste almost exclusively they are poor players or new and have multiple deficiencies besides lack of Haste.

You may not have Haste because of a great understanding of what you want from your build but they don't have Haste because of a lack of understanding.

I'm not terribly surprised that some mention blacklisting and booting for the non-Haste throwers because 99% of the time that caster is pretty clueless and, since we are talking about level 18-20 toons, most likely they have been told about the value of Haste before and just don't care or listen.

As a caster that doesn't cast Haste I think you should probably accept that your are exhibiting a trait that is prevalent in n00by casters even if you are an experience player with a plan and a vision.

Some of that preconception may fall on you just like a player who runs around with 0% fort not because they don't know better but because they play and are geared in such a way that they feel they are stronger using that slot for something else. Others won't understand because 99.99% of the time 0% fort=idiot.

Also realize that if you espouse not taking Haste you are giving very bad advise to 99% of the casters in the game.

[DDOisFree]

I find it absolutely hilarious when someone argues not to pigeonhole someone by pigeonholing them.

I dont think I made the argument not to pigenhole 'classes', however each class is better suited to certain roles, and that is how they should ideally be played.

[Missing_Minds]

This raid was designed back in the days when we would go into threnal, pull a ML 8 race restricted + 5 shock weapon and immediately bind it because that was your new main weapon. When someone pulled a curse spewer back then it was a prized posession.

*laughs* Binding didn't exist back then, nor did the AH. Took them long enough to put in locking as it was.

But yes, I do remember those days.... Some good challenging times back then. *sigh*

[Aashrym]

Watch the end result of pages of discussion turn into 'read by a dev, rebalanced in an update'. Doh!

[KillEveryone]

Oh yes, I want to save plat. I want 5 other people to save plat and time too. That's why we're in the party. So that the quest is won faster, easier and with less spending. Completely greedy and selfish, and yet working towards a common goal.

So you are not showing up to a party prepared? Why don't you get some pots and be ready? Because you are greedy.

Oh, so you consider a melee that didn't bring a stack of haste pots to be piking now?
So, someone who didn't make the effort to make the quest run 10-20% faster is a piker, unless it's you?
Nice double-standards you got there.

You didn't bring the appropriate gear to the party. You are a piker. I brought my pots, I have heal pots, haste pots, resists, clickies. I'm ready to do my part in the party. You have failed.
Failure on your part and you are just a piker.

If you think the other 5-11 people aren't doing anything for you, and yet still you want to group with them, then I'd say your problems go deeper than have or have-not of haste. I don't want to party with crazy people, especially if the crazy goes in the way of gameplay performance.

You want people to build their characters up to your specifications. You have some serious problems. Control freak is more like it. I don't like to party with control freaks, espically when they will detract from the performance of the gameplay.


No, I expect you to optimize your character towards the most common objective in the game: going from A to B and killing C on the way there. All of which are speed up by haste. You don't have to build my way, but I expect you to build in a reasonable way OR compensate.

You are being elitist. I don't want to min/max optimize like you are suggesting. I don't want to build your way which is what you are expecting. You expect lots of unreasonable demands.



I made a valid point and this is all you came up with? Pathetic.
If you want me to build my characters to YOUR specifications including spell list, you need to cough up some real cash. I forked out my money for the game I'm playing. Last I checked, the credit card I used had my name, not yours.

Wrong.
The argument that you "can't slot haste" is wrong, unless you're a sorcerer and on timer for swapping spells.
You can slot it, you just won't.

The argument that I can't slot haste is RIGHT. You just can't stand being wrong so you have to try and twist it around but you are utterly wrong.

It is still my character. I can slot what I want and I can't slot in haste.

As for "won't slot haste", it raises the question of "why would you not slot haste".

I have pots. Drink a pot. Be self-sufficient. Groups will like your gimped characers more and you'll learn how to be a better player. Demanding someone else provide a buff that your character needs is just a total failure and you really need to re-roll.

If you have a specific build where some other spells actually are better, that's fine.

All my spells are fine as they are. You just can't stand that someone else doesn't want to build their character according to your wishes.

If you're deluding yourself to thing that whatever choices you made are optimal when they aren't, then I probably won't enjoy partying with you.

You are deluding yourself to think that you know my characters. You are delusional in your request to have all arcanes slot haste. You are delusional in thinking that people wish to build their character according to your specifications.

If you know haste would make things go easier and faster, but you'd rather throw less efficient spells that are more "fun" to you, I don't want to party with you.

Haste does make things faster, that is why I carry stacks of pots. I can't help that you are too cheap to provide that basic buff that your character requires.
Get some pots. You'll feel better.

If you know about haste, but are making a flavour build, then unless you compensate with better-than-average gameplay and gear, I don't want to party with you.

I wouldn't want to party with you either. You are going to demand that I build my characters according to your specifications.
While you are building your party and interviewing your potential party mates, I just zerged through several quests on my melee, because I have haste pots.

Responses in Sky Blue and a smattering of Lime Green.

[Cyr]

Very true. I just felt that Cry's anecdote was worthy of bad marketing.

lol, the guy had a guild name that was advertising something. If that was just coincidence that you made that pun that is too funny.

[sojen]

Wow, this thread is too much for me to reply to...

If anyone is looking for an arcane who actually fulfils the role of an arcane on thelanis, look me up (Nietzschean).

[KoboldKiller]

Wow, this thread is too much for me to reply to...

If anyone is looking for an arcane who actually fulfils the role of an arcane on thelanis, look me up (Nietzschean).

Finally we have the absolute authority on playing an arcane.

Do tell us love how we SHOULD play OUR characters?

[varusso]

I dont think I made the argument not to pigenhole 'classes', however each class is better suited to certain roles, and that is how they should ideally be played.

Saying a toon "should not' do something is the same as saying they "should do" something.
A Sorc can be magic-DPS-king and still cast haste/rage.
A Wizzie can be CC/death/buff king and still cast rage/haste.
A bard can be the buffer/CC and still cast haste/rage. If they are the party healer, I would not expect them to cast rage/haste; there is likely another arcane in the party who can do this.

For the record, i AGREE that these are generally the best roles for the classes -- they are obviously designed with these roles in mind. But lets not pretend that by stating "this is what these classes SHOULD do" that we are not in effect dictating what we think they should do.

More to the point, you cant say that it is wrong to "dictate" how a toon SHOULD be played, when in your own mind you do the same thing everyone else does -- you have preconceived notions (based on majority gameplay) as to what you can/should expect out of a given toon. Seriously, look at this post from a neutral perspective, and see if you didnt just dictate what you expect to see:

nvm.

What I was trying to say in this post is -

1) Sorcerers are DPS casters, not buffers
2) Wizards are DC casters, and buffing is completely optional for them
3) Bards are buffers.

If you want buffs, then look for a bard or a wizard. Dont rely on sorcerers to fill this role, they are DPS caster.

If you have no wizards or bards in your group, and only a sorcerer, then dont expect any buffs. Its your fault as the teams leader for not taking a class that is meant to have buffs (Sorcerers do not need to play the role of buffer).

In epic raids, its nice to have a bard for buffs, a wizard for CCs, and a Sorcerer to DPS red names with DoTs in any 12 man group.

That is pretty much the definition of pigeonholing, is it not?

[Vellrad]

I would like to say that trip is essential, and if you don't rip monsters, you shouldn't play as melee. A melee who is not tripping monsters as soon as cooldown is over is a waste of party slot. No matter what is your DPS, AC DR, to hit bonus, HP or whatever, if you can't/won't trip just reroll. And if you can't sacrifice 1 stupid feat for improved trip then your build is wrong.

[jillie]

I would like to say that trip is essential, and if you don't rip monsters, you shouldn't play as melee. A melee who is not tripping monsters as soon as cooldown is over is a waste of party slot. No matter what is your DPS, AC DR, to hit bonus, HP or whatever, if you can't/won't trip just reroll. And if you can't sacrifice 1 stupid feat for improved trip then your build is wrong.

Not to mention that, if the melee has a rogue splash, they should certainly have hamstring, and be spamming it every 6 seconds when it goes on cooldown. Eschewing this awesome debuff feat would totally make you a gimp in need of a reroll.

/sarcasm

More seriously, my rogue splashes do have hamstring, my kensai uses trip, my wizzie (for three lives now) has taken haste as her first and rage on her fourth lvl 3 spell, my bard carries both (with extend!) and all my melees, including my divines, carry pots and/or clickies for rage and haste both (as soon as they're at high enough level and have enough cash). Then there's my sorc. Air savant, with cold as second, lvl 14, carries haste (!) but has neither extend nor rage.

On this toon, given that a rage [*edited 6/24 12:14pm UTC-6] pot/clicky lasts 1.5 minutes, and the spell would last about 2 minutes, I feel that haste, displacement, lightning bolt and frost lance are better choices. The toon is intended to nuke, not to buff. Also, he's only just gotten his first level 7 spell, has 2 @ 6, 3 @ 5, and 4 @ 4. There aren't a lot of choices yet that improve over the spells I've chosen for him - in my view. As soon as I find a choice that would, in my view, improve the character's ability to nuke, I'll revisit my current spell selections.

The key here is that the choice is mine. I've made it based upon how I feel about the effects of the spells in question, and upon my goals for the character ("Fry, slime!" is rather the attitude I iwsh him to project). I'm happy to share the buff spells 'I' carry for 'my' own use - blur, displacement, haste, resist elements, GH and GT from scrolls - but I see no reason why 'I' should carry rage. Stand close while "I' use my clicky. it lasts nearly as long as if I were casting it, and it doesn't cost spell points.

*Edit to insert the correct spell name; I had typed 'haste', when I had meant to type 'rage'. Blame piking at work.

[goodspeed]

intimidate is not a dump skill it can be useful.

Why's a melee trying to dps anyway? Why is the melee complaining he's a dps and to dps he needs the help of another player? OMG. Breakthrough.

This thread isn't about buffs or how someone should play their character. It's about melee's being handicap! Mages are the crutch that melee lean on for support! Well and healers to. **** melee's kinda seem spongy. If a pally or monk goes up anymore you'll not need em.

[Fenrisulven6]

You don't need haste.

[DDOisFree]

That is pretty much the definition of pigeonholing, is it not?

And what exactly is your point?

Can you read what I already wrote?

I dont think I made the argument not to pigenhole 'classes'

Sure you can play a character however you like, I can as well. I can make a cleric with 8 starting wisdom, completely unable to heal with all points dumped into strength + con and play him as a fighter. Doing so doesnt mean that this is a good way to play a cleric, nor do people have to let me into their groups if I choose to make such a character. I prefer people to play classes for what they are best designed to do.

Most sorcerers do not take Extend anymore, if they ever even did. Non extended hastes are pretty useless throughout the whole game, they last a very short time. If I want hastes, rages, blurs and GH, then I will make sure to look for a bard or a wizard, and dont mind having a sorc on top to take a pure DPS slot. Having a wizard or a bard do buffing + CCs and a sorc DPS is a perfect combination.

Some sorcerers dont take GH anymore as well. Neither GH or Haste are actually needed to successfully play the game, and sorcs do not need to take either just because the fighter classes want them. Of course most sorcerers do take blur / haste / GH etc, but that is only because they think they have to, when they actually dont.

Also, if you desire haste so badly, you can get yourself the goggles of time sensing which can later be epiced, which is just about as good as a sorcerers non extented hastes.