PSA Haste does not waste a valuable spell slot

[varusso]

Wait... are you going to... *reads further* yeap. *chuckles* Well that beats the inevitable TMNT talks that are about to happen with the next reboot on Nick soon.

I *think* they plan on adding more spells to the game. But even so I still think haste will remain on spell lists. Rage.. I'd not be so certain.

I love my protect energy ablative absorber, but protect energy/element (or mass version) and the other spells for self sufficiency (that I love to be) or pick up something else useful to party/me.... I'm still having a hard time on that call.

Honestly, I would not waste the slot on a mass prot vs energy. It is so situationally useful, as to be almost useLESS, especially on solo. In a group, it is a pretty common spell for divines to have and cast. I cant recal the last time I heard someone ask for a PROT if they already had a resist -- other than a newbie that just didnt understand how they work, and even then....cant remember the last time

There are some new spells I would like to see too, particularly some more mass versions of single spells --- though that would definitely make slotting our current spells more difficult. I actually suggested a feat that would allow us to turn any single-target spell into a mass version...dont remember which thread it was though LOL

Wow these haste debates never end, just imagine what would happen if they introduced improved haste. DDO would explode in a hot air filled tornado of endless debating.

Depends on which spell level it is

[Uska]

A minority of players on forums do not in any way represent the actual facts on the ground in-game.
For every poster that complains about something, there are a roughly equal number of posters who argue the counterpoint, especially when you take into account the sum of ALL threads on the subject, not just the most recent one.
This debate (and MANY others) have been done to death. Alot of posters take one look at the thread, see it is the same old debate, and just close it without commenting. To assume they dont support one side or the other is incorrect; they are just tired of participating in the same pointless debate over and over, when the end result will be the same. One side will insist their side is the only correct thing, and the other will do the same, and very few will be willing to compromise or see the middle ground. All of them being only a small random sampling of the actual playerbase.

I simply have not yet joined the ranks of those who are bored with this silly debate -- yet.

EDIT: First on 30 Touchdown!

Well you have me partially convinced I will proably add rage to my spell list later but I wont have displace many due to the fact when I have it to many ask for it and then ask for it again and again so its mainly a annoyance factor on it if it was a mass buff it wouldnt bother me but anything that lasts for such a short time should be a mass buff thats why I like haste but they better be where I cast it if they want it for that casting.

[Uska]

Same can be said about those that say arcanes should have haste.

No I agree with him haste is proably the single most useful spell any one can carry if it is in their spell list

[KillEveryone]

And my contention is that while it's completely their choice on what to take and how to build their toon, it's my right to keep them or boot them from my group.
How can you (and others) contend (unless I'm misunderstanding your argument), that it's completely up to the person on how they want to play their toon, and not selfish of them to build toons that don't provide a party buff, but it's selfish for some of us to suggest that we have the right to play with toons that have haste.

It very much seems there are people here defending one players right to play how they want (not carry/cast haste), but decrying other players from playing how they want (not playing with arcanes who don't carry haste)

It's a bit odd.
And yes,depressing that this has gone on 30 pages.

I never said you can't boot.

I never said you have to play with those people.

I never said you can't blacklist those people.

I did say that to require players to build their characters to your specification is selfish of you. If you don't wish for an arcane type that doesn't slot haste to be in your party, it is your party. I'm not knocking anyone for that.

I'm knocking people for saying that you must slot this regardless of what that person wants to have in those slots.

Personally, I don't care if someone has it or not. Like I've said before, I carry pots to deal with those situations. If that arcane wants to contribute in other ways, fine by me, as long as they are not sitting at the entrance doing nothing.

[varusso]

Well you have me partially convinced I will proably add rage to my spell list later but I wont have displace many due to the fact when I have it to many ask for it and then ask for it again and again so its mainly a annoyance factor on it if it was a mass buff it wouldnt bother me but anything that lasts for such a short time should be a mass buff thats why I like haste but they better be where I cast it if they want it for that casting.

I didnt carry displacement for a very long time, for the same reason. Then I started using it solo alot, so it became a stock spell. The solution here is to educate your party members.

Look folks, I have only SO much SP to get through the quest, and I am NOT going to chug mana pots. If you like the rage/haste, CCs, fingers, etc. then the Displacement is ONLY for key, tough fights. I often dont even maintain it on ME in trivial content. And keeping track of a displace timer on 6 people in trash fighting, on top of everything else, is just too much to juggle. If you remind me about it right before a tough fight (and I can afford it) I will be glad to drop it on you.

If someone wants to boot and ban me for that -- okay then. yet to be an issue though. I think they are just happy not to have to argue over rage and haste

[Kaldais]

Haste is useful to me because it allows me to zerg through the Quest 6% faster.

I will only target Haste/Rage on myself.

I expect you to be standing near me if you want your haste refreshed.

I expect you to suck a potion if you missed my haste, because I have no intention to double cast it.

If I target a haste on you, that means I'm going to pike.

I will only buff you if I deem you need that buff to survive, otherwise you are expected to buff yourself.

Sleep/Deep Slumber makes the mob to be helpless to the first attack, IE increasing my Polar ray damage by 50%.

Buffs/Heals are not required to complete a quest, just like I will not berate you if you choose to club Harry with Clubs of the Silver Flame, as long as you are happy and are doing damage. I could care less.

The last player who tried to tell me what/when/where to cast my spells got his stone tossed into a lava pit.

[Fejj]

rabble rabble rabblerabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble

FACT - rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble
FACT - rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble

rabble rabblerabble rabble rabble rabble
rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble
rabble rabble rabble

rabble rabble

I give up,

Haste = good
Buffs = good
Party > Self = good

Forcing others to think like you = bad
Forcing others to do as you say = bad
Deciding what lvl 3 spells are good for me = bad

Making a suggestion then allowing others to play as they please = good
Making a suggestion then blacklisting and chastizing others for not agreeing = bad
DDO forum elitist trying to convince everyone he is right = bad

People can make their own decisions, and no one should hate them over it.

Just my opionions on the topic

Now, please take a deep breath and try to enjoy the game

DDO 2 - Fourms of Insanity!!!!!!!!!!
MOD 1 - Haste debate

[gurgar78]

Oh for Pete's sake - saying you shouldn't blacklist an arcane who refuses to haste/rage is like saying you shouldn't get rid of the third baseman who can't catch. There's a minimum level of competency that should be expected.

Talk to him first. Maybe he's never played before and doesn't know he's supposed to catch the ball when it comes to him. Are you going to keep him on your team if he refuses to catch? Are you going to care why he refuses to catch?

[Fejj]

Oh for Pete's sake - saying you shouldn't blacklist an arcane who refuses to haste/rage is like saying you shouldn't get rid of the third baseman who can't catch. There's a minimum level of competency that should be expected.

Talk to him first. Maybe he's never played before and doesn't know he's supposed to catch the ball when it comes to him. Are you going to keep him on your team if he refuses to catch? Are you going to care why he refuses to catch?

Please black list anyone you want. Its a game and you should do as you please.

I however can complete any quest without haste and or rage just fine. I bring other people along not for my own buffs, and certainly not for the good of the group. I bring others along because it is fun to spin the "Ol'pug wheel" and see what you get.

If I wanted to be selfish I would just solo everyting in the game and have fun that way. If someone joins who I expect to fill a role and they do not, so be it. We will find another way to win than was expected. For me, that is fun. The challenge of not knowing what you will get, or how you will succeed.

Besides, the bard has haste, so what are we worried about?

[Postumus]

Besides, the bard has haste, so what are we worried about?

And Rage. And Blur.

[MindCake]

Who is really being selfish?

It isn't the person that doesn't have haste.

It is the person that says they have to have haste.

It is the person that says they have to set their character up the "standard" way.

It isn't the person that doesn't load haste.

You people that say casters should load haste toss around selfish but really you are all the ones being selfish in your requirements.

It is an elitist and selfish attitude that you people are propagating.

Just to doublecheck:
In your opinion, expecting other people to spend a couple thousands of platinum on haste pots, so that you can finish the quest faster isn't selfish, and expecting the random puggers to have stacks of haste pots and/or GS clickies is not elitist in the least?
Am I reading it right?

People can expect whatever they want. If they boot/squelch/ban for life people who have built a character outside of your expectations,

Why are you even discussing squelching/boot/ban for life? Why not crucifixion?
Like this:
"Would you crucify a sorcerer for not having haste? If you would, you're a horrible horrible person. I can't believe we're having this discussion! You should get locked up. While all the normal people let these haste-less sorcs into their groups, and have lots of fun and cookies."

To explain: as far as I could tell, only a handful of people mentioned kicking/squelching over the spells. Don't misconstrue that into the argument that everyone who says "arcanes should carry haste" is on the crusade to ban, squelch, grief and crucify the hasteless ones.

Same goes for sorcerers. Buy 30% striders, dump haste. I want acid blast, lightning bolt, fireball, frost lance, displacement, rage and repair serious. That's 7 spells in 4 slots. Drop 2 dps spells, one depending on your savant, the other depending on what content you're running, and it's 5 slots. Drop repair serious when you get the better repair spells and you're down to 4. Afaik Sorcs only get 4 slots. How do I slot haste.

Take DBF or meteor swarm instead of fireball (actually, with just the firewall, fireball is pretty much obsolete). Acid rain instead of acid blast. Polar ray instead of frost lance. Repair critical or reconstruct instead of repair serious. And chain lightning or ball lightning instead of lightning bolt.
That leaves you with 2 spells for 4 slots. You can slot haste, and even return one of the other ones.

[KillEveryone]

Just to doublecheck:
In your opinion, expecting other people to spend a couple thousands of platinum on haste pots, so that you can finish the quest faster isn't selfish, and expecting the random puggers to have stacks of haste pots and/or GS clickies is not elitist in the least?
Am I reading it right?

And you expecting someone to build their character to YOUR standards isn't selfish either?

To expect others to provide you with YOUR needs while making the other person unhappy isn't selfish?

Really? Seriously?

Take DBF or meteor swarm instead of fireball (actually, with just the firewall, fireball is pretty much obsolete). Acid rain instead of acid blast. Polar ray instead of frost lance. Repair critical or reconstruct instead of repair serious. And chain lightning or ball lightning instead of lightning bolt.
That leaves you with 2 spells for 4 slots. You can slot haste, and even return one of the other ones.

There you go, telling people what they have to have just to meet your personal needs. They may want to take the other lvl 3 spells.

What give you the right to tell other people what to do?

[gurgar78]

Please black list anyone you want. Its a game and you should do as you please.

I however can complete any quest without haste and or rage just fine. I bring other people along not for my own buffs, and certainly not for the good of the group. I bring others along because it is fun to spin the "Ol'pug wheel" and see what you get.

If I wanted to be selfish I would just solo everyting in the game and have fun that way. If someone joins who I expect to fill a role and they do not, so be it. We will find another way to win than was expected. For me, that is fun. The challenge of not knowing what you will get, or how you will succeed.

Besides, the bard has haste, so what are we worried about?

And you can win a baseball game without a third baseman, but it's a hell of a lot more frustrating and requires a lot more effort from the other 8 players. Who would want to? Especially when there's no lack of third basemen willing to catch?

[gurgar78]

And you can win a baseball game without a third baseman, but it's a hell of a lot more frustrating and requires a lot more effort from the other 8 players. Who would want to? Especially when there's no lack of third basemen willing to catch?

Actually, reliable sources have informed me that only one in eleven men is willing to catch. Statement withdrawn. =P

[Sorc]

Well you have me partially convinced I will proably add rage to my spell list later but I wont have displace many due to the fact when I have it to many ask for it and then ask for it again and again so its mainly a annoyance factor on it if it was a mass buff it wouldnt bother me but anything that lasts for such a short time should be a mass buff thats why I like haste but they better be where I cast it if they want it for that casting.

Displacement should be used for boss fights and big battles. It doesn't need to be on people the entire time through a dungeon, and I would never use it that way because of the short duration.

[MindCake]

And you expecting someone to build their character to YOUR standards isn't selfish either?

To expect others to provide you with YOUR needs while making the other person unhappy isn't selfish?

Really? Seriously?

You're not going to answer the question? Seriously?

There you go, telling people what they have to have just to meet your personal needs. They may want to take the other lvl 3 spells.

What give you the right to tell other people what to do?

Wrong. I'm not telling anyone what to do. Just showing that the proposed "I can't slot haste" scenario is wrong, because it's possible to slot it while maintaining that functionality, unless of course you're not willing to listen and are obstinate about these_particular_spells_no_other_will_do_even_if_i t's_better, in which case you can't slot haste, but that's a mental problem, beyond the scope of this thread.

[Postumus]

Displacement should be used for boss fights and big battles. It doesn't need to be on people the entire time through a dungeon, and I would never use it that way because of the short duration.

Can say the same about Haste and Rage and GH and Blur and most buffs: they are conveniences that good players do not need but make the completions faster and easier.


Players don't need perma-haste, perma-rage to chew through the trash to the boss.

Just to doublecheck:
In your opinion, expecting other people to spend a couple thousands of platinum on haste pots, so that you can finish the quest faster isn't selfish, and expecting the random puggers to have stacks of haste pots and/or GS clickies is not elitist in the least?
Am I reading it right?

Is that really any different than the "I-am-not-a-HEALBOT!" Clerics and FvS expecting characters to bring heal/remcurse/remdisease/remblind pots?


My melees spend untold thousands on heal pots. If there is a buff I really need to have, I get a clicky and buy some pots. In PUGs the only player you can depend on is yourself. If you join expecting X and you have no means of providing it yourself, then disappointment is almost certain because at least one other player will not have the spell/dps/skill/stat that you expected them to have.

[Postumus]

Just showing that the proposed "I can't slot haste" scenario is wrong, because it's possible to slot it while maintaining that functionality, unless of course you're not willing to listen and are obstinate about these_particular_spells_no_other_will_do_even_if_i t's_better, in which case you can't slot haste, but that's a mental problem, beyond the scope of this thread.

Can't/won't/don't... what's the difference? The people who demand Haste & Rage from EVERY arcane will be annoyed regardless.


For clarification, at what level do you expect a sorcerer to have haste & rage? Is it only level 13 sorcs and above who are subject to these expectations? Or every level capable of casting a 3rd level spell?


If the sorc only has one 3rd level spell is it ok for him not to have displacement instead of haste or rage? What if he only has two 3rd level spells? Would it be ok for him to have displacement and prot from energy instead of haste and rage? Or is it that the sorc must get haste, then rage, then two other spells as the slots open up?


As I said before, I have no expectations of PUG members. Frankly, I'm just happy the sorcerer decided to tag along and provide some dps. haste/rage/blur are nice, but I won't blink if I don't get them.

[varusso]

Please black list anyone you want. Its a game and you should do as you please.

I however can complete any quest without haste and or rage just fine. I bring other people along not for my own buffs, and certainly not for the good of the group. I bring others along because it is fun to spin the "Ol'pug wheel" and see what you get.

If I wanted to be selfish I would just solo everyting in the game and have fun that way. If someone joins who I expect to fill a role and they do not, so be it. We will find another way to win than was expected. For me, that is fun. The challenge of not knowing what you will get, or how you will succeed.

Besides, the bard has haste, so what are we worried about?

Once again, no one has said the quests cant be completed without rage/haste (which can be said about just about anything or any class in the game, so thats not really relevant). What has been stated is that it makes the quest faster and easier. And no one can actually deny that with a straight face.

Actually, you would be selfLESS if you decided to solo the quest, rather than refusing to bring the basics to a group. It means the rest of the group can save that slot for the person who WILL do what they ask.

I still find it hilarious that you presume the bard should have haste, but its wrong to assume other arcanes do.

Can say the same about Haste and Rage and GH and Blur and most buffs: they are conveniences that good players do not need but make the completions faster and easier.


Players don't need perma-haste, perma-rage to chew through the trash to the boss.




Is that really any different than the "I-am-not-a-HEALBOT!" Clerics and FvS expecting characters to bring heal/remcurse/remdisease/remblind pots?


My melees spend untold thousands on heal pots. If there is a buff I really need to have, I get a clicky and buy some pots. In PUGs the only player you can depend on is yourself. If you join expecting X and you have no means of providing it yourself, then disappointment is almost certain because at least one other player will not have the spell/dps/skill/stat that you expected them to have.

Perma-haste keeps you moving faster, even between fights; other buffs just tick uselessly. Haste also "extends" your other buff timers by getting you from point to point faster -- rather than that useless ticking between fights and needing to recast THOSE more often. Rage can expire until needed.

Comparing any Remove X pot to a rage/haste pot does not work. Each of those pots have the exact same effect as the spell. A haste/rage pot is inferior to the cast spell due to duration -- which has been covered multiple times. As for healing potions -- i seriously doubt many players can heal/repair pot their way through boss fights. Those that can are the exception, not the rule -- namely top-tier geared, multi-TR toons.

[KillEveryone]

You're not going to answer the question? Seriously?



Wrong. I'm not telling anyone what to do. Just showing that the proposed "I can't slot haste" scenario is wrong, because it's possible to slot it while maintaining that functionality, unless of course you're not willing to listen and are obstinate about these_particular_spells_no_other_will_do_even_if_i t's_better, in which case you can't slot haste, but that's a mental problem, beyond the scope of this thread.

Know what, yes. Buy your own pots.

Oh, you want to save plat. Now you're just being greedy.

Why didn't you show up to the quest prepared? Oh, you are going to pike.

Why should I have to be the one to give? What are you giving me? You kill things? I can do that.

Why should I sacrifice myself for you? You do not care to do the same for me.

Why should I give up my happiness for you?

My character is built my way.

If you expect me to build YOUR way, you are being selfish. If you don't want to buy pots because you want to save plat, you are being greedy.

You did nothing for my character.

You are not paying for my game.

When you pay for my subscription, then you can tell me how to play. I would be the best Axer Package(TM) there was if someone paid for my subscription.

I await several thousand Turbine points for you to have that privilege.

Buy your own pots. I did. So can you.

I come to the quest prepared. I expect the same from you but you are falling short of my expectations. You don't want to though because you expect me to keep you hasted. Good thing I have haste pots.

You are totally telling someone what to do if you require the arcane types to always have haste.

I can't slot haste because there are other spells I want to have there. There is nothing wrong with this argument.